United passenger forcibly removed from plane for not giving up seat

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Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,752
1,285
126
Some random points.

The guy is 69.
The police claimed he fell but then retracted the statement.
He managed to escape and get back on the plane, muttering "I need to get home, I need to get home". Other passengers said he looked quite disoriented as he stumbled back into the cabin.
He had blood coming out of his mouth.

Seriously, WTF.
 

Viper GTS

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
38,107
433
136
One of the angles shows him taking a pretty hard hit to the head. They launched him across the aisle head first into the arm rest.

Viper GTS
 

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,524
27,825
136
Arresting Officer: This is your receipt for your husband... and this is my receipt for your receipt.

Mr. Helpmann: He's got away from us, Jack.
Jack Lint: 'Fraid you're right, Mr. Helpmann. He's gone.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,349
2,362
136
One of the angles shows him taking a pretty hard hit to the head. They launched him across the aisle head first into the arm rest.

Viper GTS
Dumb question, but how is this not an assault? I mean is the chance of criminal charges closer to 0 than to 1% ?
 

Carson Dyle

Diamond Member
Jul 2, 2012
8,174
524
126
Some random points.

The guy is 69.
The police claimed he fell but then retracted the statement.
He managed to escape and get back on the plane, muttering "I need to get home, I need to get home". Other passengers said he looked quite disoriented as he stumbled back into the cabin.
He had blood coming out of his mouth.

Seriously, WTF.

And... They then had everyone deplane while they cleaned up the blood. The flight ended up taking off two hours late.

Seriously, WTF.
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
92
91
It seems like a lot of you who are omgwtfbbq seething about the treatment of this guy glossed over the points about him not having a choice to get up. I'm not defending or advocating for anything that happened nor am I actually even rendering an opinion. With that said, I don't understand what the fuss is about. I've been in this exact situation and as soon as it became clear that shit wasn't going to go my way I got off of the plane. They aren't going to skip over you, so you have no options other than get off and take the voucher. As someone else already said, you are not guaranteed a specific seat or even a specific time when you buy a ticket. You are only guaranteed to get a seat on a plane to go from X to Y.

Let's assume for a second that the police argued with him for 10 minutes about getting off of the plane. People would be pissed that it took so long and the flight was delayed. If forcible removable isn't a choice, what can be done? Offering to pay more is certainly not a bad idea and I know that has been mentioned several times, but let's say that wasn't working ($800 is already quite a bit more than I've ever seen offered on almost 500 flights). If the guy was going batshit crazy, he can't be maced in a tight space and a taser probably wouldn't work, so I don't really see another option. Fighting with the police on an airplane has got to be the dumbest shit ever regardless of how much you think you've been wronged. FAA rules will fuck your shit up and rightfully so in my opinion.

I don't think this is a black and white situation at all. It's no good for anyone, but it's less good for him because United will still be perfectly fine. This has zero impact on my willingness to use United for my next flight because I am not going to yell and scream at anyone, especially the crew, so I'll either get there or get a voucher. /flamesuit
 

MrDudeMan

Lifer
Jan 15, 2001
15,069
92
91

The relevant parts, unless I missed something, don't really paint anything United did as wrong in this situation:

Voluntary Bumping

Almost any planeload of airline passengers includes some people with urgent travel needs and others who may be more concerned about the cost of their tickets than about getting to their destination on time. DOT rules require airlines to seek out people who are willing to give up their seats for compensation before bumping anyone involuntarily. Here's how this works. At the check-in or boarding area, airline employees will look for volunteers when it appears that the flight has been oversold. If you're not in a rush to arrive at your next destination, you can give your reservation back to the airline in exchange for compensation and a later flight. But before you do this, you may want to get answers to these important questions:

  • When is the next flight on which the airline can confirm your seat? The alternate flight may be just as acceptable to you. On the other hand, if the airline offers to put you on standby on another flight that's full, you could be stranded.
  • Will the airline provide other amenities such as free meals, a hotel room, transfers between the hotel and the airport, and a phone card? If not, you might have to spend the money it offers you on food or lodging while you wait for the next flight.
DOT has not mandated the form or amount of compensation that airlines offer to volunteers. DOT does, however, require airlines to advise any volunteer whether he or she might be involuntarily bumped and, if that were to occur, the amount of compensation that would be due. Carriers can negotiate with their passengers for mutually acceptable compensation. Airlines generally offer a free trip or other transportation benefits to prospective volunteers. The airlines give employees guidelines for bargaining with passengers, and they may select those volunteers willing to sell back their reservations for the lowest price. If the airline offers you a free ticket or a transportation voucher in a certain dollar amount, ask about restrictions. How long is the ticket or voucher good for? Is it "blacked out" during holiday periods when you might want to use it? Can it be used for international flights?

Involuntary Bumping

DOT requires each airline to give all passengers who are bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn't. Those travelers who don't get to fly are frequently entitled to denied boarding compensation in the form of a check or cash. The amount depends on the price of their ticket and the length of the delay:

  • If you are bumped involuntarily and the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to get you to your final destination (including later connections) within one hour of your original scheduled arrival time, there is no compensation.
  • If the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to arrive at your destination between one and two hours after your original arrival time (between one and four hours on international flights), the airline must pay you an amount equal to 200% of your one-way fare to your final destination that day, with a $675 maximum.
  • If the substitute transportation is scheduled to get you to your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1350 maximum).
  • If your ticket does not show a fare (for example, a frequent-flyer award ticket or a ticket issued by a consolidator), your denied boarding compensation is based on the lowest cash, check or credit card payment charged for a ticket in the same class of service (e.g., coach, first class) on that flight.
  • You always get to keep your original ticket and use it on another flight. If you choose to make your own arrangements, you can request an "involuntary refund" for the ticket for the flight you were bumped from. The denied boarding compensation is essentially a payment for your inconvenience.
  • If you paid for optional services on your original flight (e.g., seat selection, checked baggage) and you did not receive those services on your substitute flight or were required to pay a second time, the airline that bumped you must refund those payments to you.
Like all rules, however, there are a few conditions and exceptions:

  • To be eligible for compensation, you must have a confirmed reservation. A written confirmation issued by the airline or an authorized agent or reservation service qualifies you in this regard even if the airline can't find your reservation in the computer, as long as you didn't cancel your reservation or miss a reconfirmation deadline.
  • Each airline has a check-in deadline, which is the amount of time before scheduled departure that you must present yourself to the airline at the airport. For domestic flights most carriers require you to be at the departure gate between 10 minutes and 30 minutes before scheduled departure, but some deadlines can be an hour or longer. Check-in deadlines on international flights can be as much as three hours before scheduled departure time. Some airlines may simply require you to be at the ticket/baggage counter by this time; most, however, require that you get all the way to the boarding area. Some may have deadlines at both locations. If you miss the check-in deadline, you may have lost your reservation and your right to compensation if the flight is oversold.
As noted above, no compensation is due if the airline arranges substitute transportation which is scheduled to arrive at your destination within one hour of your originally scheduled arrival time.

If the airline must substitute a smaller plane for the one it originally planned to use, the carrier isn't required to pay people who are bumped as a result. In addition, on flights using aircraft with 30 through 60 passenger seats, compensation is not required if you were bumped due to safety-related aircraft weight or balance constraints.

The rules do not apply to charter flights, or to scheduled flights operated with planes that hold fewer than 30 passengers. They don't apply to international flights inbound to the United States, although some airlines on these routes may follow them voluntarily. Also, if you are flying between two foreign cities -- from Paris to Rome, for example -- these rules will not apply. The European Commission has a rule on bumpings that occur in an EC country; ask the airline for details, or go to http://ec.europa.eu/transport/passengers/air/air_en.htm[external link].

Airlines set their own "boarding priorities" -- the order in which they will bump different categories of passengers in an oversale situation. When a flight is oversold and there are not enough volunteers, some airlines bump passengers with the lowest fares first. Others bump the last passengers to check in. Once you have purchased your ticket, the most effective way to reduce the risk of being bumped is to get to the airport early. For passengers in the same fare class the last passengers to check in are usually the first to be bumped, even if they have met the check-in deadline. Allow extra time; assume that the roads are backed up, the parking lot is full, and there is a long line at the check-in counter.

Airlines may offer free tickets or dollar-amount vouchers for future flights in place of a check for denied boarding compensation. However, if you are bumped involuntarily you have the right to insist on a check if that is your preference. Once you cash the check (or accept the free flight), you will probably lose the ability to pursue more money from the airline later on. However, if being bumped costs you more money than the airline will pay you at the airport, you can try to negotiate a higher settlement with their complaint department. If this doesn't work, you usually have 30 days from the date on the check to decide if you want to accept the amount of the check. You are always free to decline the check (e.g., not cash it) and take the airline to court to try to obtain more compensation. DOT's denied boarding regulation spells out the airlines' minimum obligation to people they bump involuntarily. Finally, don't be a "no-show." If you are holding confirmed reservations you don't plan to use, notify the airline. If you don't, they will cancel all onward or return reservations on your trip.

I'm not saying these passages absolve any potential wrongdoing, but they don't specifically outline anything involving the concept of giving up seats in this situation as being handled incorrectly. It appears, at least as specified above, that United followed the rules as stated given what has been reported. Obviously that could change and none of this addresses what happened after the situation escalated.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,945
20,215
136
$800? I was just on a Southwest flight that was over booked and they only offered $180.

That's low. I'm sure it varies by how valuable that specific seat you are giving up is and where and when the flight is going, but the few times I've been bumped have always been around $400 flight credit and some moneys to buy food at any airport vendor. I had my first Smashburger experience when volunteering to give up my seat. Worked out fine for just a 3 hour delay.
 
Last edited:

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
Offering to pay more is certainly not a bad idea and I know that has been mentioned several times, but let's say that wasn't working ($800 is already quite a bit more than I've ever seen offered on almost 500 flights).

There is some $$$ amount where a passenger will bite. Whatever amount that would have been, it is surely less than the amount already spent in PR discussing this incident.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
20,429
3,533
126
I just read an interesting article from some travel writer who was writing about a series of payouts from Delta. Quite a nice juxtaposition.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurab...-to-fly-to-florida-this-weekend/#66ca768d4de1

Its a bit different when an airline completely screws up their operations stranding of tens of thousands of people in airports for up to 3 days after a storm. Delta's failure to invest in IT meant their their systems broke when a thunderstorm hit their main hub (along with a host of other complications resulting from business decisions). Not only did they incorrectly update flight statuses (telling people that some flights were cancelled when they weren't and others were delayed when they went out on time.) but many kiosks in airports failed meaning their woefully understaffed agents at the airports and phone lines had to deal with multi-hour lines (reports of 5+ hour phone wait times for Delta Platinum members). The crew scheduling system became unresponsive. Their pilots couldn't even get through to find out what flight they were supposed to fly. As a result they were still cancelling hundreds of flights 3 days after the storm

Its great that this family made out but this was the exception rather than the rule. No one in the Flyertalk or Reddit threads have fared as well despite all the delays and, in some cases, days stuck in airports. Delta PR is probably pretty thankful that United is keeping a lot of well deserved heat off of them

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/08/travel/delta-airlines-pilots-cancellations/
http://www.11alive.com/news/local/deltas-crisis-reports-from-the-ground/429800938

Anyway...




Haha, pretty much. I only get these offers when flying for a business trip on the way to work and not home.

I had a long string of missed opportunities due to business requirements that finally broke last October. Coming home from a trip they were looking for volunteers so I offered despite being told it would be ATL->MSP->DTW routing. I figured $600 was worth 3 extra hours of transit but the offer increased to $800 and I ended up on the next ATL-DTW flight 2 hours later. My original flight out was delayed so I got an $800 voucher for 1.5 hours of sitting in the ATL airport and an aisle seat.
 
Last edited:

Svnla

Lifer
Nov 10, 2003
17,999
1,396
126
Speaking of compensation. I received a few thousand miles from United when the flight was canceled due to a mechanical issue. They did have to rebook me with another airline (Japan to Mexico to US instead of Japan to US directly). No cash money or any voucher at all.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
I once got 25k miles from United for sitting on a tarmac in India for 4 hours due to rain delay.
 

purbeast0

No Lifer
Sep 13, 2001
52,930
5,802
126
https://www.yahoo.com/news/united-p...oved-flight-refusing-give-seat-134930951.html

Companies are so stupid. All they had to do was keep raising their offer if no one bit at $800. I was on overbooked United flight Saturday night and they offered $800 plus hotel and dinner and breakfast for volunteers to take the next morning flight. I went up to take the deal but a family of five beat me to the agent by like 5 seconds. I guess $800 is the max for United.
LOL .. shit if I was that family of four, I'd take a flight later on for basically a free vacation at that point with the extra $4k to blow.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,752
1,285
126
It seems like a lot of you who are omgwtfbbq seething about the treatment of this guy glossed over the points about him not having a choice to get up. I'm not defending or advocating for anything that happened nor am I actually even rendering an opinion. With that said, I don't understand what the fuss is about. I've been in this exact situation and as soon as it became clear that shit wasn't going to go my way I got off of the plane. They aren't going to skip over you, so you have no options other than get off and take the voucher. As someone else already said, you are not guaranteed a specific seat or even a specific time when you buy a ticket. You are only guaranteed to get a seat on a plane to go from X to Y.

Let's assume for a second that the police argued with him for 10 minutes about getting off of the plane. People would be pissed that it took so long and the flight was delayed. If forcible removable isn't a choice, what can be done? Offering to pay more is certainly not a bad idea and I know that has been mentioned several times, but let's say that wasn't working ($800 is already quite a bit more than I've ever seen offered on almost 500 flights). If the guy was going batshit crazy, he can't be maced in a tight space and a taser probably wouldn't work, so I don't really see another option. Fighting with the police on an airplane has got to be the dumbest shit ever regardless of how much you think you've been wronged. FAA rules will fuck your shit up and rightfully so in my opinion.

I don't think this is a black and white situation at all. It's no good for anyone, but it's less good for him because United will still be perfectly fine. This has zero impact on my willingness to use United for my next flight because I am not going to yell and scream at anyone, especially the crew, so I'll either get there or get a voucher. /flamesuit
Well, the point is, United caused this themselves. The guy was a paid customer and was minding his own business, as he was let on the plane as a paid customer. And then they told him he won the lottery for being kicked off the plane, just because.

He then refused, saying he had to get home, so he could see his patients the next day. He did not care that they offered him $800.

Then they said, they'll forcibly remove him from the plane... which they did, and then some, bashing his head in the process.

Basically, he was a normal customer, until United screwed him over and threatened to throw him off the plane just because of their own issues.
 

GagHalfrunt

Lifer
Apr 19, 2001
25,297
2,001
126
they could argue that but i think the video is pretty clear. I know how I would vote in a jury box.

Ditto that. The US airlines are already rightfully viewed as complete scum and are universally loathed by everyone that's flown on them. A man being dragged off a plane for having a legal ticket and a boarding pass allowing him to be sitting there? I'd love to be on that jury, he'd get a big ass check.
 

ponyo

Lifer
Feb 14, 2002
19,689
2,811
126
LOL .. shit if I was that family of four, I'd take a flight later on for basically a free vacation at that point with the extra $4k to blow.
Yeah, my wife let me know several times on the flight home from Newark to Atlanta. We could've gotten $2,400 between the three of us if I had listened to the earlier announcements or walked little faster. But then I would had to spend another day at Newark. That's one shitty airport.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie and Ns1

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
And all legality aside this is just shocking incompetency on the part of an airline to let it come to this. This is a PR nightmare even if they never have to pay this guy a penny.

You can call it a "PR nightmare" all you want, but given the state of air travel in the US, why should United care? In my experience, you don't usually have much of a choice on which airline you travel with a that's largely dependent upon the starting and destination airports and which airlines travel there. The other deciding factor is typically the cost of the ticket. On my last trip, I flew Delta simply because it was the cheaper option as United would've been some weird route (I think an extra layover) that added to the cost.[/QUOTE]
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,752
1,285
126
I didn't know who Jaime King was until today.

"Hey @united - never flying on your airline again," she wrote. "Know I'm not the only one. Your statement is abhorrently vague & without accountability."

I have to agree though, that statement from the CEO was lame.

BTW, this is what Joss Whedon had to say.

"For the comfort and safety of the other passengers, please remember we will be resorting to cannibalism BY GROUP NUMBER."
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,904
12,374
126
www.anyf.ca
This whole deal of overbooking flights should be illegal. How can you sell more of a product and not be able to provide it? The overbooked people still had to pay for a ticket. It would be like an online store only sending you half your order because they don't have the ability to actually supply what you ordered, but still charged you for it.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,414
1,574
126
You can call it a "PR nightmare" all you want, but given the state of air travel in the US, why should United care? In my experience, you don't usually have much of a choice on which airline you travel with a that's largely dependent upon the starting and destination airports and which airlines travel there. The other deciding factor is typically the cost of the ticket. On my last trip, I flew Delta simply because it was the cheaper option as United would've been some weird route (I think an extra layover) that added to the cost.

There is a fair amount of overlap for major destinations. United will lose big there IMO.

Jet Blue, for instance, just shot up in the pecking order if it's true they don't overbook their flights.
 

Capt Caveman

Lifer
Jan 30, 2005
34,547
651
126
There is a fair amount of overlap for major destinations. United will lose big there IMO.

Jet Blue, for instance, just shot up in the pecking order if it's true they don't overbook their flights.

I'm sure many people including myself will only use United as a last resort. They could have raised the compensation and asked if anyone would take his place. The man was 69 years old. Stupid idiots at United should have taken inconsideration the elderly, children and handicapped but no. WTF is wrong with people.
 

manly

Lifer
Jan 25, 2000
11,349
2,362
136
I once got 25k miles from United for sitting on a tarmac in India for 4 hours due to rain delay.
I think I'd need at least 25M points to sit outside on hot asphalt in India while it's raining.
 

Eug

Lifer
Mar 11, 2000
23,752
1,285
126
This whole deal of overbooking flights should be illegal. How can you sell more of a product and not be able to provide it? The overbooked people still had to pay for a ticket. It would be like an online store only sending you half your order because they don't have the ability to actually supply what you ordered, but still charged you for it.
Overbooking is OK. United's approach in this particular case of overbooking is not.

And if you're going to compare to online product orders, it's like selling you an in stock item but then not shipping it and giving you twice the money back if you agree to it, which is ok. What's not ok is them sending a goon to your house to bash your head in if you complain the product you were promised is out of stock.
 
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