United passenger forcibly removed from plane for not giving up seat

[Ancalagon44]

I think by definition that would make them a domestic airline.

But, what if say British Airways wanted to start up a local branch doing domestic flights? Would that be forbidden?

In my country (South Africa), British Airways does both domestic and international flights.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

But, what if say British Airways wanted to start up a local branch doing domestic flights? Would that be forbidden?

In my country (South Africa), British Airways does both domestic and international flights.

Well, we have 'domestic airlines' (like Delta, United) which fly international flights, I don't know if an 'international airline' that flew domestic flights would just be also classified as a domestic airline. I'm not sure if that 'domestic airline' part has some specific rules surrounding it.

It may/may not be forbidden, depending on anti-competitive regulations which may/may not have been set up within the FAA/other branches of govt.

 

[Darwin333]

Fair enough - I don't know the term, but it happens whether or not anyone agrees with it. I have never and will never say I think this is all perfectly fine and reasonable, but what United did considering the rules was reasonable. You might think the rules are stupid and I'd probably agree with that. It makes zero difference how right or wrong he was; it only matters what United is allowed to do.

What rules are you talking about? The FAA makes rules for what airlines must compensate people but there is absolutely zero rule or law that says that they can't go above and beyond that. The CEO of JetBlue even came out and said that United should have just kept upping the payout and eventually someone would take it. Not to mention that they don't have anything in their own rules about deboarding passengers due to a flight being overbooked or oversold, neither of which is the case but that is what they are calling it. Furthermore, there are multiple lawyers that are saying this action was illegal since the passengers were already boarded. We will have to wait to confirm the last one but it still goes against their own Carriage Contract. So I will ask again, specifically which rules are you talking about?

 

[Darwin333]

Why would you have to be sleeping?
To go even deeper, I really don't understand the logic of "But he was in his seat!". To me it is akin to "finders keepers".
What if he got up to use the restroom, would they be ok deplaning him then? What if he was in the jetway and he refused to remove himself?

If I booked a hotel room, and they were trying to walk me and I refused, would I be in the right? What about when they call the cops to remove me from the lobby, am I still in the right when I refuse to leave? Hopefully they don't beat the shit out of me when they remove me, but would I still be in the right when I am removed?

None of this changes the massive errors made by aviation police, united, the flight crew, etc, but I think this will have repercussions for more than just the air industry.

Because they are allowed to deny you boarding for overbooked or oversold flights. He was already on board the plane and sitting in his seat. This type of issue should, and pretty much universally is, handled at the gate. If they had done that there would have been no issue and probably would have gotten some takers for the money once they said they would start randomly picking people. Otherwise, you are simply not allowed to board the plane and that is that. I highly doubt this guy was going to try and charge his way onto the flight because he got picked at the gate to be bumped.

It's akin to checking into a hotel, being given your room key, entering your room and starting to unpack and then hotel staff come in and tell you "sorry, we had someone more important come in and we need your room for them".

 

[Svnla]

First of all, here is the list of your rights as an airline passenger - https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/fly-rights

Today (4/13/17) Wall Street Journal has an article about this incident and here are some of the tibits.

1. The contract of carriage from United has 46 pages, Delta has 51 pages, American has 21 pages. Those pages are full of legal lawyer speaks, any of you dare to read them from begin to end, word for word?

2. How a US airline determines who to kick out? a) Disability folks and minors = no go. b) Then they will go down the list base on fare cost, itinerary, frequently mile member status, time of check in.

3. Why Delta did not have such a mess with customers even they had a big weather related incident recently? Maybe because Delta gave out gift cards and was willing to raise up the ante (see my post above about a woman earned $11K from Delta) while United gave out travel vouchers and did not want to raise up the ante.

4. The big deal with United was that they did not start the "kick out" process BEFORE the passengers boarding process. By the time that passengers were inside the plane, different rules and regulations were in play.

 

[manly]

Because they are allowed to deny you boarding for overbooked or oversold flights. He was already on board the plane and sitting in his seat. This type of issue should, and pretty much universally is, handled at the gate. If they had done that there would have been no issue and probably would have gotten some takers for the money once they said they would start randomly picking people. Otherwise, you are simply not allowed to board the plane and that is that. I highly doubt this guy was going to try and charge his way onto the flight because he got picked at the gate to be bumped.

It's akin to checking into a hotel, being given your room key, entering your room and starting to unpack and then hotel staff come in and tell you "sorry, we had someone more important come in and we need your room for them".

While most of us are in agreement with you on common sense and ethics, we're talking about corporate entities here that have a contract that is written very much in their favor. Some people have stated that airlines are within their legal rights to boot a seated passenger up until the point that the doors are locked. Others are not so sure that the airline's 4 employees trump paying passengers rights after they've all been seated the way the contracts are written.

I'm going to give the airline the benefit of the doubt that they didn't know in advance they needed 4 more seats, that somehow piss-poor planning resulted in the need at the last moment. From virtually any business perspective it makes no sense that they knew this prior to boarding passengers, but waited until the stakes were raised. IMO that still shouldn't be the seated passengers' problem, but obviously the airline put its business needs above those of its customers.

Even if you take the CEO's statement at face value that airline staff was authorized to offer (up to) a $1,000 travel voucher, we've heard no eyewitness testimony that such offer was ever made. And federal rules do allow up to $1,350 (whether an airline can exceed this cap I do not know). Which begs the question, if the business needs were so valuable to move those 4 employees, then why wouldn't the airline staff at least offer up to $1,350 in cash? Finally to make an obvious point, some of you needn't get tripped up on the word "cash." Nobody means a wad of large bills, a corporate check is perfectly fine.

 

[Svnla]

The daughter said her father suffered "a 'significant' concussion and a broken nose and lost two front teeth".

I am pretty sure "traumatize", "mental anguish", "unspecified pain and suffering", "humiliation" and much more will follow. Gotta dig the well deeper.

 

[Ns1]

I am pretty sure "traumatize", "mental anguish", "unspecified pain and suffering", "humiliation" and much more will follow. Gotta dig the well deeper.

Given the media attention given to him, I would describe these injuries as apt.

 

[Pantoot]

I highly doubt this guy was going to try and charge his way onto the flight because he got picked at the gate to be bumped.

And the crew (or gate agents) working the flight highly doubted that he would resist the police order and end up getting shit kicked out of him.

It's akin to checking into a hotel, being given your room key, entering your room and starting to unpack and then hotel staff come in and tell you "sorry, we had someone more important come in and we need your room for them".

I wonder what the public support would be if, in this hypothetical case, I refused to leave the room, and refused to comply with the police when they inevitably came to remove me from the room.
Removing the irrelevant stuff (you unpacked, the new person is more important), I guess what I am getting held up with is; does it really matter whether you are already in the room or not?

Being told you can't have the room (or car, or seat, or moving truck) that you reserved sucks, I guess the emotional aspect of having something taken from you once you "have" it is worse than if you are denied it in the first place, but they shouldn't be allowed to do either.

Without penalties or laws to prohibit overbooking from happening in the first place, I can see more cases like this appearing. And, if the ruling is that once you are "planted" it is yours, I wonder how many people will go ahead and try and charge their way onto the flight.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

" If you don't like it, work to change the system.

A lot of people don't like it. What would he accomplish if he went along? If he stood up like the easily manipulated sheep they were hoping he'd be then this thread doesn't exist, this story doesn't exist and this impetus for change doesn't exist. He'd just be some guy stuck in an airport with a voucher he didn't want and nobody would give a rats ass. So he did what he could using the only avenue open to him to change a system he though was unfair, he passively resisted and gave United and those rent-a-goons enough rope to hang themselves with. And sure as shit, they all lined up to jump into the noose in full view of 100 witnesses and plenty of cameras.

He did change the system. You can damn sure bet that this will lead to changes in how bumps are handled. And he's going to get rich at United's expense, so it's win win. Everyone that flies on United now will be better off and treated with more respect because one person didn't like the system and worked to change it the only way he could.

 

[Darwin333]

And the crew (or gate agents) working the flight highly doubted that he would resist the police order and end up getting shit kicked out of him.


I wonder what the public support would be if, in this hypothetical case, I refused to leave the room, and refused to comply with the police when they inevitably came to remove me from the room.
Removing the irrelevant stuff (you unpacked, the new person is more important), I guess what I am getting held up with is; does it really matter whether you are already in the room or not?

Being told you can't have the room (or car, or seat, or moving truck) that you reserved sucks, I guess the emotional aspect of having something taken from you once you "have" it is worse than if you are denied it in the first place, but they shouldn't be allowed to do either.

Without penalties or laws to prohibit overbooking from happening in the first place, I can see more cases like this appearing. And, if the ruling is that once you are "planted" it is yours, I wonder how many people will go ahead and try and charge their way onto the flight.

I think the stuff you call irrelevant is actually quite relevant. I mean where do you personally draw the line? Is it ok for the hotel to come in at 2 am after you've been sleeping for a few hours, wake you up and demand that you vacate the room because they are giving it to someone else? How about coming back from breakfast to find your stuff in the hallway? To answer your question, yes I think it most definitely matters if you are already in the room or not. I've been downgraded from rooms and even had to find a new hotel at the last minute because of a hotels mistake or maybe it was just someone more important, not like they are going to say that. However, it has ALWAYS been at the desk when I was trying to check in. I've also been denied the ability to extend my reservation in a suite before because they had it booked to someone else, since I've been downgraded before I assume that someone else was more important to them than I was. I can and do understand that but that is not what this was.

As far as passengers rushing the plane to try and get "planted", that is just silly. They still wouldn't be "boarded" because the airline personnel at the gate never scanned/accepted his boarding pass and I doubt anyone would be up in arms with that person being dragged off.

And there don't need to be penalties or laws to prevent overbooking, hell this flight was NOT overbooked, airlines in similar situations simply need to offer up a high enough reward to get people to voluntarily deplane. If it's done at the gate they can use whatever maximum they deem appropriate while within FAA regulations but once passengers are boarded and refusal would result in police action the agent in charge should be given broad leeway to up the ante until people go voluntarily. I guarantee you that is what the vast majority of airlines (the ones that don't already do this) will do from now on, including United. Frankly it's just silly, anytime a company as big as United Airlines can prevent police action against a paying, non-threatening or rule breaking customer for a couple of thousand dollars it should be a no-brainer.

United could have increased their maximum payout 10 fold across the board for the last decade, and remember it will almost never get to the maximum before people bite, and it would still have cost far less than this single incident. Hindsight is 20/20 but United should have had the hindsight to know that once passengers are "planted" in their seats and there isn't another flight that night to their destination they will be very hesitant to give up their seats. If this was just some drunk belligerent guy that refused and got bloodied during the scuffle the plane still would have been delayed for 2 hours and they still would have lost a hellofa lot more money than simply doubling the offer. So not only are their actions potentially illegal they are downright bad business.

 

[elitejp]

I dont think much will change except that they will add more legal terms in the contract to protect the company.
Such is the case when a bloody nose could cost you more than million dollars.

 

[Svnla]

United pilots union speaks out - http://www.businessinsider.com/united-airlines-pilots-letter-2017-4

 

[ponyo]

United pilots union speaks out - http://www.businessinsider.com/united-airlines-pilots-letter-2017-4

Yeah, it's definitely culture problem at United. Way to pass the buck United pilots union!

 

[manly]

Yeah, it's definitely culture problem at United. Way to pass the buck United pilots union!

Can't believe lawyers were okay with the following line.

3. Social media ire should properly be directed at the Chicago Aviation Department.

 

[elitejp]

And its a cultural problem of the usa to demonize any large business
Im beyond a shadow of doubt that neither united nor the security wanted this man to get injured.
No biggie. It will all be forgotten in a week

 

[Capt Caveman]

And its a cultural problem of the usa to demonize any large business
Im beyond a shadow of doubt that neither united nor the security wanted this man to get injured.
No biggie. It will all be forgotten in a week

The fact that you continually defend United when they handled the whole incident and aftermath horrendously then comment the senior citizen only had a bloody nose when he lost two teeth, a broken nose and a concussion demonstrates how much of an idiot you are.

 

[Kwatt]

I think the chance of this ever going to court is smaller now that Oscar Munoz has publicly stated that Dr. David Dao was in no way at fault for what happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dk2Y_VL5e7s


.

 

[GagHalfrunt]

Yeah, it's definitely culture problem at United. Way to pass the buck United pilots union!

There's no buck to pass for them. There's plenty of blame to go around from the people who set policies to the ones who trained the personnel to the actual thugs who beat up an old man with 50 cameras trained on them (seriously, how do people still forget that everything is being recorded now?). But the pilots most definitely are not responsible. So they might as well distance themselves from the whole fiasco. The mechanics and the guys who clean the bathroom should issue statements too.

I think the chance of this ever going to court is smaller now that Oscar Munoz has publicly stated that Dr. David Dao was in no way at fault for what happened.

There was never a chance of this going to court. Munoz is now trying to minimize the PR damage even if it costs them more in the settlement. Say the right things, pay more and get it over quickly. United is going to get fucked in the ass no matter what, at least make it appear that they've seen the error of their ways and are trying to take the high road.

 

[Slew Foot]

This guy is like the Rosa Parks of the airline industry

 

[Svnla]

It was not truly randomly selected - http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/wa...ch-really-to-blame/ar-BBzLjMs?ocid=spartandhp

 

[Kaido]

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

F*ck United. Already booked two trips for next year.
They were with United this year, they're with AA next year.
~$50 more roundtrip per trip, but worth it to put my money where my mouth is.

 

[Eug]

LA Times: Full-fare first-class United passenger, already seated, threatened with handcuffs to make room for 'higher-priority' traveler

Fearns, 59, is president of TriPacific Capital Advisors, an Irvine investment firm that handles more than half a billion dollars in real estate holdings on behalf of public pension funds. He had to fly to Hawaii last week for a business conference.

Fearns needed to return early so he paid about $1,000 for a full-fare, first-class ticket to Los Angeles. He boarded the aircraft at Lihue Airport on the island of Kauai, took his seat and enjoyed a complimentary glass of orange juice while awaiting takeoff.

Then, as Fearns tells it, a United employee rushed onto the aircraft and informed him that he had to get off the plane.

“I asked why,” he told me. “They said the flight was overfull.”

Fearns, like the doctor at the center of that viral video from Sunday night, held his ground. He was already on the plane, already seated. He shouldn’t have to disembark.

“That’s when they told me they needed the seat for somebody more important who came at the last minute,” Fearns said. “They said they have a priority list and this other person was higher on the list than me.”

Apparently United had some mechanical troubles with the aircraft scheduled to make the flight. So the carrier swapped out that plane with a slightly smaller one with fewer first-class seats.

Suddenly it had more first-class passengers than it knew what to do with. So it turned to its “How to Screw Over Customers” handbook and determined that the one in higher standing — more miles flown, presumably — gets the seat and the other first-class passenger, even though he’s also a member of the frequent-flier program, gets the boot.

“I understand you might bump people because a flight is full,” Fearns said. “But they didn’t say anything at the gate. I was already in the seat. And now they were telling me I had no choice. They said they’d put me in cuffs if they had to.”

 

[elitejp]

The fact that you continually defend United when they handled the whole incident and aftermath horrendously then comment the senior citizen only had a bloody nose when he lost two teeth, a broken nose and a concussion demonstrates how much of an idiot you are.

And who said he lost two teeth and had a major concussion? Thats right his daughter
Feel free to ask my mom how smart i am if you think his family and lawyers arent trying to make this thing as big as possible and of course united will try to make this look like a huge misunderstanding/accident as possible.
In fact i will still argue that united didnt intend for this to happen and the majority of blame should be with how the security handled this. Im not even sure if the security is under uniteds jurisdiction?
If it is united should have insurance against their own security going rogue and beating people up. That is unless they have physical abuse as part of their training handbook then all bets are off