united states of amerika

[Starbuck1975]

Apples and oranges, my favorite fruits. Where's the beef buddy, show me some linkage where a guy was arrested on zero grounds and had personal property confiscated because of something he might do perhaps someday maybe.

Not apples and oranges at all...the security measures put in place by the Boston police for the DNC mirror those utilized by the NYPD...therefore it is reasonable to assume that, had our bike riding friend chose to target the DNC, he would have met with a similar response by the Boston police.

Oh, and here are some links that describe the "free speech zones" of the DNC...I lived just a few blocks from the Fleet Center at the time of the DNC, and these "free speech zones" were barbed wire enclosed pens in the middle of the Big Dig construction...these zones were littered with construction debris, mud and puddles...most chose to ignore the Fleet Center entirely, and stage protests on the Commons.

Apples and oranges indeed.

One little...

Two Little...

Three little articles

And these were the first three articles that came up on a search for "Boston Police" and DNC.

 

[Fern]

LINK

In New York City it is rightly illegal for an adult to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk. The average bicycle weighs less than 30 pounds, yet adult bicyclists are too big, too fast and too threatening to safely share space with small children, seniors and other vulnerable pedestrians.

 

[ayabe]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Apples and oranges, my favorite fruits. Where's the beef buddy, show me some linkage where a guy was arrested on zero grounds and had personal property confiscated because of something he might do perhaps someday maybe.

Not apples and oranges at all...the security measures put in place by the Boston police for the DNC mirror those utilized by the NYPD...therefore it is reasonable to assume that, had our bike riding friend chose to target the DNC, he would have met with a similar response by the Boston police.

Oh, and here are some links that describe the "free speech zones" of the DNC...I lived just a few blocks from the Fleet Center at the time of the DNC, and these "free speech zones" were barbed wire enclosed pens in the middle of the Big Dig construction...these zones were littered with construction debris, mud and puddles...most chose to ignore the Fleet Center entirely, and stage protests on the Commons.

Apples and oranges indeed.

One little...

Two Little...

Three little articles

And these were the first three articles that came up on a search for "Boston Police" and DNC.

We can debate whether or not this would have happened in Boston, in this case the guy on the bike was in no way leading authorities to believe he would engage in lawbreaking or violence. Your articles are citing people connected to groups suspected of trying to instigate or perhaps engage in violence.

Intimidation is also different than arresting, confiscating personal property for a year, etc.

Apples and oranges. In both cases I believe the police overstepped their authority, however the latter case with NYC is more egregious because of the aforementioned differences.

 

[imported_Infidel]

Originally posted by: Equinox

Originally posted by: BoomerD
The ONLY parts of this story I have, are:
"Oliver revealed that Kinberg had been one of many targets of the NYPD's "RNC Intelligence Squad," which had been traveling around the country infiltrating progressive groups and building secret files on potential rabble-rousers ahead of the convention. "

Since when did protesting against a political party become so bad that they need to infiltrate the "rabble-rousers"...sounds like somethin Hitler would have done...

Next, they arrested the guy while giving an interview...NOT while actually committing any crime...Pre-emptive arrest? What's coming next? Thought police?

Otherwise, the spraying of graffiti on the public sidewalks should be treated like any other graffiti...but you gotta catch them in the act, or AFTER committing the crime, NOT before.

And *this* is the heart of the matter here, not sideline issues of whether chalk is defacement, if he committed a crime or who was to blame.

Don't miss the point here - the problem is Why is it necessary to infiltrate the rabble-rousers? Afraid they have some good points that no one has prepped for? Are our politicians so harshly scripted in their messages today that they must prepare for every single question, every single person, every single thought?

Yeah, I guess they are. The NYPD is not stupid, and neither are Americans, but apparently our politicians are.

And in a few minutes will come a crafty reply trying to turn this into the NYPD vs. a criminal, the RNC vs. the Democrats or some other issue to divert it from the true issue that this is yet another example of the American people losing their rights.

EDIT: Oh wait, it already happened. Can we get back to the real issue, because this is the topic at hand, not how much education a police officer must receive.

I just want to get in here with the other 2 people in this thread that don't have their heads up their asses.

 

[Starbuck1975]

We can debate whether or not this would have happened in Boston, in this case the guy on the bike was in no way leading authorities to believe he would engage in lawbreaking or violence. Your articles are citing people connected to groups suspected of trying to instigate or perhaps engage in violence.

Perhaps, although the "preventative measures" utilized in Boston, although designed to mitigate the threat from certain groups, also prevented average citizens from engaging in protest of the DNC.

Also, intimidation, regardless of how it manifests itself, still manipulates behavior.

 

[ProfJohn]

Protesters at this summer's Democratic National Convention in Boston may be confined to a cozy triangle of land off Haymarket Square, blocked off from the FleetCenter and convention delegates by a maze of Central Artery service roads, MBTA train tracks, and a temporary parking lot holding scores of buses and media trucks.

What's the point to just have a rally, when you don't have an audience for whom the rally is organized?

Urszula Masny-Latos, executive director of the National Lawyers Guild's Massachusetts chapter
Under a preliminary plan floated by convention organizers, the "free-speech zone" would be a small plot bounded by Green Line tracks and North Washington Street, in an area that until recently was given over to the elevated artery. The zone would hold as few as 400 of the several thousand protesters who are expected in Boston in late July.

Isn't this the kind of thing you guys raise holy hell about when it happened in NYC? :roll:

Let's face it, both conventions used tactics that may have been a little to harsh.
Wait till 2008, things should be real interesting.
The anti-war people will be out in force, we could see a repeat of 1968 Chicago.

 

[dahunan]

Politicians are the least valuable americans ... they are all scum.. all of them

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Protesters at this summer's Democratic National Convention in Boston may be confined to a cozy triangle of land off Haymarket Square, blocked off from the FleetCenter and convention delegates by a maze of Central Artery service roads, MBTA train tracks, and a temporary parking lot holding scores of buses and media trucks.

What's the point to just have a rally, when you don't have an audience for whom the rally is organized?

Urszula Masny-Latos, executive director of the National Lawyers Guild's Massachusetts chapter
Under a preliminary plan floated by convention organizers, the "free-speech zone" would be a small plot bounded by Green Line tracks and North Washington Street, in an area that until recently was given over to the elevated artery. The zone would hold as few as 400 of the several thousand protesters who are expected in Boston in late July.

Isn't this the kind of thing you guys raise holy hell about when it happened in NYC? :roll:

Let's face it, both conventions used tactics that may have been a little to harsh.
Wait till 2008, things should be real interesting.
The anti-war people will be out in force, we could see a repeat of 1968 Chicago.

Did these people get locked up the same way these did
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rnc+pier+57&btnG=Google+Search

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: dahunan
Did these people get locked up the same way these did
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rnc+pier+57&btnG=Google+Search

I see your link and match it with one of my own
Free Speech Zone
Protesters inside the "free speech zone" drew parallels to Guantanamo Bay's Camp X-Ray, and staged a demonstration in which they wore hoods akin to those worn by Abu Ghraib detainees. Many demonstrators simply refused to enter the "free speech zone."

 

[dualsmp]

Amerika has become a police state there is no doubt. Most Amerikans will wave their flags as they gleefully march in to tyranny. You know it's really bad though when Amerika is proclaimed as the "Homeland". Two other tyrannical governments did the same thing not too long ago and look how they turned out. Might want to check my sig.

 

[mc00]

Originally posted by: dahunan
Politicians are the least valuable americans ... they are all scum.. all of them

I agree :beer:

 

[GroundedSailor]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: dahunan
Did these people get locked up the same way these did
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=rnc+pier+57&btnG=Google+Search

I see your link and match it with one of my own
Free Speech Zone
Protesters inside the "free speech zone" drew parallels to Guantanamo Bay's Camp X-Ray, and staged a demonstration in which they wore hoods akin to those worn by Abu Ghraib detainees. Many demonstrators simply refused to enter the "free speech zone."

Here's a quote from your link on Free Speech Zones

The most prominent free speech zones are those created by the Secret Service for President George W. Bush and other members of his administration.[1] The stated purpose of free speech zones is to protect the safety of the dignitary, or the protesters themselves. Critics, however, suggest that such zones are "Orwellian",[2][3] and that authorities use them in a heavy-handed manner to censor protesters by putting them literally out of sight of the mass media, hence the public, as well as visiting dignitaries. The Secret Service denies specifically targeting protesters, but, on a number of occasions, these denials have been contradicted by local police officers who have stated under oath that Secret Service agents specifically ordered them to target protesters. The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) has filed a number of lawsuits on the issue.

:laugh:

 

[imported_Equinox]

And that's why they are protesting to begin with, and why the people that founded our nation protested their government's decisions, fought and died. When people protest the government and it's decisions, and begin to get restricted from doing so by the government, no matter how it is explained, justified and defended - that is a loss of the right to free speech and the anti-thesis of the democracy our nation was founded upon.

Those trying to explain it away are part of the very system our Constitution sought to protect us from. You can make just about anything sound okay for a while with the proper application of secrecy and lies, but in time, some of the people start figuring out the truth - and some never were fooled by the lies to begin with.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Amerika has become a police state there is no doubt. Most Amerikans will wave their flags as they gleefully march in to tyranny. You know it's really bad though when Amerika is proclaimed as the "Homeland". Two other tyrannical governments did the same thing not too long ago and look how they turned out. Might want to check my sig.

If America was truly a police state, we would not have the freedom to discuss the OP in this forum.

As for your sig...in both the "Fatherland" and "Mother Russia", the Nazis and Communists eliminated most of their political oppression through a series of violent purges...I will worry about the "Homeland" when people that share your opinion are no longer posting, and these forums turn into nothing more than flag waving patriotism and cheerleading.

 

[imported_Equinox]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Amerika has become a police state there is no doubt. Most Amerikans will wave their flags as they gleefully march in to tyranny. You know it's really bad though when Amerika is proclaimed as the "Homeland". Two other tyrannical governments did the same thing not too long ago and look how they turned out. Might want to check my sig.

If America was truly a police state, we would not have the freedom to discuss the OP in this forum.

As for your sig...in both the "Fatherland" and "Mother Russia", the Nazis and Communists eliminated most of their political oppression through a series of violent purges...I will worry about the "Homeland" when people that share your opinion are no longer posting, and these forums turn into nothing more than flag waving patriotism and cheerleading.

We shouldn't ignore the many warning signs that indicate that we could be headed in that direction. How many tragedies could have been avoided if the people in Hitler's country had opposed his views before he got too much power? And in Communist Russia?

I'd prefer to discuss it now and learn if there are ways to prevent it from happening rather than have to deal with it once it gets that bad. Absolute denial is as almost as dangerous as absolute power.

 

[csteggo]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: thraashman

Originally posted by: DealMonkey
Pre-emptive arrests, far-reaching spying and surveillance on innocent Americans, geeze did the NYPD also torture its prisoners? I mean, they're like a junior version of the White House.

If you read some of the accounts from people who were arrested, yes. They were kept in a mass holding area that looked remarkably like a concentration camp and in unsanitary conditions before being moved the the tombs (precinct where they were fingerprinted, detained, and processed and usually ended up at for about 30 hours). Held for oftentimes up to 36 hours, but told they could be held far longer or indefinately by police, thus scaring many. Given no access to personal lawyers and often given unsound legal advice. Supplied food was mostly spoiled, rotten, or otherwise inedible. Due to the conditions they were kept in for upwards of 30 hours, sleep was not possible for most, so the equivalent of sleep deprivation. People who were in pain and requested simple pain relievers such as aspirin or tylenol were given no access to such medication.

Some wouldn't call that torture, but to me that definately constitutes cruel and unusual punsihment, scare tactics, and in some cases torture.

The NYPD should just release a video of them playing ping pong, that will make it all ok.

Now that was funny....

Of course the fact you cant protest around a political convention, get detained whether or not you commited a crime, and have a dossier compiled on you because you make use of your right to free speech. That is not funny.

 

[dcdarren]

Originally posted by: alien42
unreal

if you are american and this does not upset you then nothing will. this is another fine example of the the right wing nut jobs stripping our rights away. this is extremely upsetting.

I agree with you that our rights have been eroded under this administration - but - how would you really feel if someone went inside your home and sprayed water soluble messages all over your floors without your consent?

 

[imported_Equinox]

If you lose your rights, you lose consent. How would you really feel if someone invaded your home to examine it for evidence of disagreement with the government? Or how about if they just snatched you off of the street to question you about it? That's far more frightening IMHO.

 

[alien42]

Originally posted by: dcdarren

Originally posted by: alien42
unreal

if you are american and this does not upset you then nothing will. this is another fine example of the the right wing nut jobs stripping our rights away. this is extremely upsetting.

I agree with you that our rights have been eroded under this administration - but - how would you really feel if someone went inside your home and sprayed water soluble messages all over your floors without your consent?

terrible analogy, there is a big difference between private and public property. (not to mention the difference between outdoors and indoors)

 

[ProfJohn]

The arrest of this guy was a little over the top.

As was the police reations at BOTH conventions, but let's remember that these were the first conventions following 9-11 and there were a lot of worried people in both parties and both cities.

Now at the rate the anti-war people are going the 2008 Democratic convention is going to make Boston and NYC look like a walk in the park.