Universal Health Care

[Kur]

While I would love to not worry about health insurance I'm really concerned about how much this is going to cost us. My main issue is pharmaceutical companies and their insane prices, we have to pull their legs to not charge us a ton of money for pills, how is this going to effect us if they are now introduced to a market of "Guaranteed money", essentially as long as people think they need it they will get ti.

Anyone?

 

[Pabster]

Pay no attention to the cost. The constitution guarantees our general welfare, and damn it, I want FREE HEALTH CARE! Just suck up Hillary's lines hook, line, and sinker. Be sure to vote for her!

 

[blackangst1]

What Papster said. Think of the children!

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Kur
While I would love to not worry about health insurance I'm really concerned about how much this is going to cost us. My main issue is pharmaceutical companies and their insane prices, we have to pull their legs to not charge us a ton of money for pills, how is this going to effect us if they are now introduced to a market of "Guaranteed money", essentially as long as people think they need it they will get ti.

Anyone?

This is one of those things nobody can explain. Unless the govt is going to absorb our pharmasuetical industry as well?

The leftists who push UHC dont realize big business is on their side because they know in the end we wont have socialized healthcare in the framework of socialism. But a facsist system where public money is funneled into private corporations. These big business's who supply the health industry cant wait to get their hands on the nearly bottomless pit of the tax payers dollar.

Most ironic is the shift in costs moves from the employer for the vast majority of people to the individual via income taxation. So much for helping the middle class. The left just pushed the cost of the system onto the middle class.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

As it is, the US pays more in taxes for health care per capita than other nations who have universal healthcare.

Pharmaceutical companies do charge up to 100x more for medications in the US than they do in UK and other EU countries so yeah, you'd have to do something about that, why you are not doing it right NOW i don't know since you are still paying more through your taxes than if you had the same system as us and beyond that you also pay insurances and extreme premiums for drugs.

Pabster, you are paying more via the taxes than any nation that has universal health care, does this system please you because you're so god damn happy to pay more for less or what is it about it that is so great?

 

[techs]

What about the free market? How about negotiating with the drug companies and health suppliers for lower prices

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Pabster, you are paying more via the taxes than any nation that has universal health care, does this system please you because you're so god damn happy to pay more for less or what is it about it that is so great?

I like being responsible for my OWN health care. That means all the choices that go with it. I don't want Hillary or anyone else dictating it. I have no problem with the cost; We have the best health care system in the world - far superior to the socialized medicine systems you seem so fond of.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Pabster, you are paying more via the taxes than any nation that has universal health care, does this system please you because you're so god damn happy to pay more for less or what is it about it that is so great?

I like being responsible for my OWN health care. That means all the choices that go with it. I don't want Hillary or anyone else dictating it. I have no problem with the cost; We have the best health care system in the world - far superior to the socialized medicine systems you seem so fond of.

You have a substandard system for all but the elite. The best healthcare system that is funded with the most money for a small minority of the population. For the majority you have a sub-standard system that will put people into debt for the remainder of there life.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Kur
While I would love to not worry about health insurance I'm really concerned about how much this is going to cost us. My main issue is pharmaceutical companies and their insane prices, we have to pull their legs to not charge us a ton of money for pills, how is this going to effect us if they are now introduced to a market of "Guaranteed money", essentially as long as people think they need it they will get ti.

Anyone?

This is one of those things nobody can explain. Unless the govt is going to absorb our pharmasuetical industry as well?

The leftists who push UHC dont realize big business is on their side because they know in the end we wont have socialized healthcare in the framework of socialism. But a facsist system where public money is funneled into private corporations. These big business's who supply the health industry cant wait to get their hands on the nearly bottomless pit of the tax payers dollar.

Most ironic is the shift in costs moves from the employer for the vast majority of people to the individual via income taxation. So much for helping the middle class. The left just pushed the cost of the system onto the middle class.

So essentially health care would operate exactly like the defense industry. I don't see too many people complaining that that system is "socialist" or "fascist", when it is EXACTLY the same thing...the government providing a service to the people, footing the entire bill and paying hundreds of billions of dollars to private industry to do it. Why does an argument that supports the DOD not work for Universal health care? Especially since UHC doesn't go nearly as far in a lot of proposals, many UHC proponents simply suggest that the government FUND health care, not RUN the entire system.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Kur
While I would love to not worry about health insurance I'm really concerned about how much this is going to cost us. My main issue is pharmaceutical companies and their insane prices, we have to pull their legs to not charge us a ton of money for pills, how is this going to effect us if they are now introduced to a market of "Guaranteed money", essentially as long as people think they need it they will get ti.

Anyone?

I never understood the worry about universal health care costing money...you think it's free now? Health care is hideously expensive right now, all the more so because we lack any form of collective bargaining power with the huge health care companies, especially big pharma.

 

[MonkeyK]

everyone makes assumptions about what universal health care must be, and it always seems to be the worst of everything that they can imagine or the most wonderful thing that they could ever dream of.

Regarding pharmacuticals: how is the OP's problem any different than your current insurance (think about what you are assuming).

Regarding shifting the cost: the cost has already been built into your salary. I think that for big business it is a wash. They might get some savings from not increasing your salary by as much as they save in healthcare coverage, but they loose a competitive adavantage that they have against smaller businesses. (which may force higher salaries)

Consider the enormous advantage that you get with portability. Consider the enormous effect UHC would have on small business. If you could start a business without having to worry about if you would loose your healthcare coverage, would it affect the risk you percieve in starting a business? If you could work for a start-up without loosing you healthcare coverage, how would that affect the risk you percieve in working for a smaller company?

 

[XMan]

It's a simple question of supply and demand, really.

The automatic perception will be that the healthcare is "free", given that it's going to be coming out of witholding. That's going to create an increased demand on services. Normally in such a situation prices would increase to compensate, but government-run health care is in effect, a price control. As such, the natural result is going to be exactly like Canada and other places with nationalized health care. If prices can't go up as a result of demand, supply will go down, resulting in longer wait times for care.

Honestly it's a problem now. Folks with insurance feel like, hey, they've got it, they'll use it, and they go to the doctor for a chest cold or something similar, when they could just get some cold medicine at the pharmacy and not worry about it. I hate going to the doctor and refuse to go unless I'm hurting pretty bad. I wish more people would do the same.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: XMan
It's a simple question of supply and demand, really.

The automatic perception will be that the healthcare is "free", given that it's going to be coming out of witholding. That's going to create an increased demand on services. Normally in such a situation prices would increase to compensate, but government-run health care is in effect, a price control. As such, the natural result is going to be exactly like Canada and other places with nationalized health care. If prices can't go up as a result of demand, supply will go down, resulting in longer wait times for care.

Honestly it's a problem now. Folks with insurance feel like, hey, they've got it, they'll use it, and they go to the doctor for a chest cold or something similar, when they could just get some cold medicine at the pharmacy and not worry about it. I hate going to the doctor and refuse to go unless I'm hurting pretty bad. I wish more people would do the same.

Government run (or funded) health care doesn't have to be a price control, that's certainly NOT the case in a lot of industries...again I'm thinking about the defense industry. Despite the government being the only customer, I don't see companies being reluctant to designed and build the latest generation of weapons.

As for the "overuse" problem, that seems like a negative byproduct of health care in general that's difficult to avoid. I don't think that means we just don't provide health care. That seems very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

 

[ProfJohn]

Why are we even talking about the cost of drugs?
Let?s figure out how to pay for healthcare without drugs first.

We spend something along the lines of $2 trillion a year on healthcare. How is the government going to come up with another $1 trillion in tax revenue (it already spends nearly $1 trillion a year on healthcare.)

We are going to increase the size of the budget by 25% which means we have to increase taxes by 25%. That is going to kill the economy.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Kur
My main issue is pharmaceutical companies and their insane prices, we have to pull their legs to not charge us a ton of money for pills, how is this going to effect us if they are now introduced to a market of "Guaranteed money", essentially as long as people think they need it they will get ti.

Anyone?

This is one of those things nobody can explain.

Unless the govt is going to absorb our pharmasuetical industry as well?

I absolutely can explain.

When it costs $300 a month for a heart prescription here when the drug comes from Indiana but yet when I order the same medication from the Fiji islands and it costs $150 the Pharmaceutical Companies deserve to be reined in by the Government.

I would start by banning the phoney TV ads immediately.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: XMan
It's a simple question of supply and demand, really.

The automatic perception will be that the healthcare is "free", given that it's going to be coming out of witholding. That's going to create an increased demand on services. Normally in such a situation prices would increase to compensate, but government-run health care is in effect, a price control. As such, the natural result is going to be exactly like Canada and other places with nationalized health care. If prices can't go up as a result of demand, supply will go down, resulting in longer wait times for care.

Honestly it's a problem now. Folks with insurance feel like, hey, they've got it, they'll use it, and they go to the doctor for a chest cold or something similar, when they could just get some cold medicine at the pharmacy and not worry about it. I hate going to the doctor and refuse to go unless I'm hurting pretty bad. I wish more people would do the same.

Government run (or funded) health care doesn't have to be a price control, that's certainly NOT the case in a lot of industries...again I'm thinking about the defense industry. Despite the government being the only customer, I don't see companies being reluctant to designed and build the latest generation of weapons.

As for the "overuse" problem, that seems like a negative byproduct of health care in general that's difficult to avoid. I don't think that means we just don't provide health care. That seems very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

It's not the government's job to provide it. It's their job to ensure that the playing field is relatively level for all consumers, by regulation of insurance companies, medical licensing, etc.

Government control of any sort of industry is going to stem innovation, because it removes the incentive to innovate. As you said, the defense industry is a perfect example. For another example, let's take the phone companies, and the airlines. Both were highly regulated in the past, and both charged very high high fees for their services. When government involvement was reduced, it opened the market for innovation and competition. Voila, cheap long distance and cheap airfare.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Kur
My main issue is pharmaceutical companies and their insane prices, we have to pull their legs to not charge us a ton of money for pills, how is this going to effect us if they are now introduced to a market of "Guaranteed money", essentially as long as people think they need it they will get ti.

Anyone?

This is one of those things nobody can explain.

Unless the govt is going to absorb our pharmasuetical industry as well?

I absolutely can explain.

When it costs $300 a month for a heart prescription here when the drug comes from Indiana but yet when I order the same medication from the Fiji islands and it costs $150 the Pharmaceutical Companies deserve to be reined in by the Government.

I would start by banning the phoney TV ads immediately.

It's suplly and demand, Dave. The market will bear the $300 price in the US; if they charged $300 for it in Fiji no one could afford to buy it. We are essentially subsidizing other markets.

 

[techs]

You know what I miss? The "religious right" on this board who NEVER post in a thread about universal health care. Seems Jesus only wants to bomb Iraq and Iran and pass laws against homosexuals and the wearing of droopy pants.
In fact just the other day I saw Jesus (well at least it looked like him, long hair and a beard and old clothes) with a sign that said "You are not a Christian if you don't support keeping people from dying. Support Universal Health Care"

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Kur
My main issue is pharmaceutical companies and their insane prices, we have to pull their legs to not charge us a ton of money for pills, how is this going to effect us if they are now introduced to a market of "Guaranteed money", essentially as long as people think they need it they will get ti.

Anyone?

This is one of those things nobody can explain.

Unless the govt is going to absorb our pharmasuetical industry as well?

I absolutely can explain.

When it costs $300 a month for a heart prescription here when the drug comes from Indiana but yet when I order the same medication from the Fiji islands and it costs $150 the Pharmaceutical Companies deserve to be reined in by the Government.

I would start by banning the phoney TV ads immediately.

It's suplly and demand, Dave.

The market will bear the $300 price in the US; if they charged $300 for it in Fiji no one could afford to buy it.

We are essentially subsidizing other markets.

That's wrong, period.

Amazing how Repubs whine and complain about paying for someone's health care etc but yet perfectly OK with paying for foreigners medications?

Your logic is warped beyond belief.

 

[XMan]

Originally posted by: techs
You know what I miss? The "religious right" on this board who NEVER post in a thread about universal health care. Seems Jesus only wants to bomb Iraq and Iran and pass laws against homosexuals and the wearing of droopy pants.
In fact just the other day I saw Jesus (well at least it looked like him, long hair and a beard and old clothes) with a sign that said "You are not a Christian if you don't support keeping people from dying. Support Universal Health Care"

This is my fourth post in this thread. Lot more than "never".

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Kur
My main issue is pharmaceutical companies and their insane prices, we have to pull their legs to not charge us a ton of money for pills, how is this going to effect us if they are now introduced to a market of "Guaranteed money", essentially as long as people think they need it they will get ti.

Anyone?

This is one of those things nobody can explain.

Unless the govt is going to absorb our pharmasuetical industry as well?

I absolutely can explain.

When it costs $300 a month for a heart prescription here when the drug comes from Indiana but yet when I order the same medication from the Fiji islands and it costs $150 the Pharmaceutical Companies deserve to be reined in by the Government.

I would start by banning the phoney TV ads immediately.

It's suplly and demand, Dave. The market will bear the $300 price in the US; if they charged $300 for it in Fiji no one could afford to buy it. We are essentially subsidizing other markets.

Actually that is not 100% true.

Fiji, Canada and other countries have laws that limit the amount of money these companies can make. So they are forced to sell the drugs for cost, or close to cost.

However, creating all these wonderful new drugs cost a lot of money in research. And since they can?t make any money in foreign markets they have to get that money from someplace so they raise the prices here in the US where there are no artificial limits on what they can charge. So the US consumers are essentially footing the bill for all new drug research, while Fiji and Canada are just enjoying the use of the new medicines.

Of course Dave is going to suggest that we pass laws that limit what these companies can charge in the US too. If we did that though the companies R&D funds would dry up and we would be relying on government research money for all our new drugs.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Kur
My main issue is pharmaceutical companies and their insane prices, we have to pull their legs to not charge us a ton of money for pills, how is this going to effect us if they are now introduced to a market of "Guaranteed money", essentially as long as people think they need it they will get ti.

Anyone?

This is one of those things nobody can explain.

Unless the govt is going to absorb our pharmasuetical industry as well?

I absolutely can explain.

When it costs $300 a month for a heart prescription here when the drug comes from Indiana but yet when I order the same medication from the Fiji islands and it costs $150 the Pharmaceutical Companies deserve to be reined in by the Government.

I would start by banning the phoney TV ads immediately.

It's suplly and demand, Dave. The market will bear the $300 price in the US; if they charged $300 for it in Fiji no one could afford to buy it. We are essentially subsidizing other markets.

Actually that is not 100% true.

Fiji, Canada and other countries have laws that limit the amount of money these companies can make. So they are forced to sell the drugs for cost, or close to cost.

However, creating all these wonderful new drugs cost a lot of money in research. And since they can?t make any money in foreign markets they have to get that money from someplace so they raise the prices here in the US where there are no artificial limits on what they can charge. So the US consumers are essentially footing the bill for all new drug research, while Fiji and Canada are just enjoying the use of the new medicines.

Of course Dave is going to suggest that we pass laws that limit what these companies can charge in the US too. If we did that though the companies R&D funds would dry up and we would be relying on government research money for all our new drugs.

You mean we overpay so we can subsidize all those television commercials that Big Pharm likes to run?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: techs
You know what I miss? The "religious right" on this board who NEVER post in a thread about universal health care. Seems Jesus only wants to bomb Iraq and Iran and pass laws against homosexuals and the wearing of droopy pants.
In fact just the other day I saw Jesus (well at least it looked like him, long hair and a beard and old clothes) with a sign that said "You are not a Christian if you don't support keeping people from dying. Support Universal Health Care"

Hey look, it's the Jesus card again. Oh how I love it when the left suddenly supports Jesus and his teachings. The unfortunate part is they usually twist bits and pieces of the teachings to support whatever their agenda for the day is. Jesus was all for helping others, but there is nothing to suggest he would support the idea of FORCED helping. His teachings suggest we as individuals should help others of our own free will.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Why are we even talking about the cost of drugs?
Let?s figure out how to pay for healthcare without drugs first.

We spend something along the lines of $2 trillion a year on healthcare. How is the government going to come up with another $1 trillion in tax revenue (it already spends nearly $1 trillion a year on healthcare.)

We are going to increase the size of the budget by 25% which means we have to increase taxes by 25%. That is going to kill the economy.

No it wouldn't. In fact our economy would be a lot more competitive if our employers aren't saddled with enormous healthcare costs and liabilities. Taxes may go up, but it will be offset by not having to buy insurance for yourself or employees, and overall it could be a positive if the government negotiates lower prices as single payer.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Kur
My main issue is pharmaceutical companies and their insane prices, we have to pull their legs to not charge us a ton of money for pills, how is this going to effect us if they are now introduced to a market of "Guaranteed money", essentially as long as people think they need it they will get ti.

Anyone?

This is one of those things nobody can explain.

Unless the govt is going to absorb our pharmasuetical industry as well?

I absolutely can explain.

When it costs $300 a month for a heart prescription here when the drug comes from Indiana but yet when I order the same medication from the Fiji islands and it costs $150 the Pharmaceutical Companies deserve to be reined in by the Government.

I would start by banning the phoney TV ads immediately.

It's suplly and demand, Dave. The market will bear the $300 price in the US; if they charged $300 for it in Fiji no one could afford to buy it. We are essentially subsidizing other markets.

Actually that is not 100% true.

Fiji, Canada and other countries have laws that limit the amount of money these companies can make. So they are forced to sell the drugs for cost, or close to cost.

However, creating all these wonderful new drugs cost a lot of money in research. And since they can?t make any money in foreign markets they have to get that money from someplace so they raise the prices here in the US where there are no artificial limits on what they can charge. So the US consumers are essentially footing the bill for all new drug research, while Fiji and Canada are just enjoying the use of the new medicines.

Of course Dave is going to suggest that we pass laws that limit what these companies can charge in the US too. If we did that though the companies R&D funds would dry up and we would be relying on government research money for all our new drugs.

You mean we overpay so we can subsidize all those television commercials that Big Pharm likes to run?

Exactly. Those companies spend more on marketing than R&D. Also, these other country governments can cap prices precisely because they know that stupid Americans will continue subsidizing their drugs. If we tell them we won't they'll have to raise prices to still get the drugs they want.