Universal Health Care

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
... companies R&D funds would dry up and we would be relying on government research money for all our new drugs.

Originally posted by: Hacp
You mean we overpay so we can subsidize all those television commercials that Big Pharm likes to run?

Originally posted by: senseamp
Those companies spend more on marketing than R&D. ...

Thank you for the *smackdown* on Johnny's disinformation.

It is my understanding, as pointed out by senseamp, that major corporations and large employers are becoming more engaged in addressing universal health care in the United States because of the unyielding burdens that health care costs have placed upon their organizations.

Real Americans support an overhaul of health care in the US. I would like to thank the Cons on this Forum for opposing major revisions in health care because it reveals how much you truly hate America.

Employers will continue to pay health care costs. We will continue to purchase hospitalization insurance as individuals....but we have to address ER primary care (for those who have no physician), preventative healthcare in eliminating our own destructive behaviors, long-term care for the aged, the 100's of billions of dollars spent on medical care for the terminally ill (as opposed to hospice care) and yes, death with dignity.

I've ""paranted my parents"" to their deaths. When any of you Cons wanna debate health care and medical quality of life issues, let's get it on.

And if the best you can do is *Terri Schiavo* please stand back and shut up.

 

[techs]

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: techs
You know what I miss? The "religious right" on this board who NEVER post in a thread about universal health care. Seems Jesus only wants to bomb Iraq and Iran and pass laws against homosexuals and the wearing of droopy pants.
In fact just the other day I saw Jesus (well at least it looked like him, long hair and a beard and old clothes) with a sign that said "You are not a Christian if you don't support keeping people from dying. Support Universal Health Care"

Hey look, it's the Jesus card again. Oh how I love it when the left suddenly supports Jesus and his teachings. The unfortunate part is they usually twist bits and pieces of the teachings to support whatever their agenda for the day is. Jesus was all for helping others, but there is nothing to suggest he would support the idea of FORCED helping. His teachings suggest we as individuals should help others of our own free will.

Your will is free. Help others.
Support universal health care.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Man

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Gens

Originally posted by: Kur
My main issue is pharmaceutical companies and their insane prices, we have to pull their legs to not charge us a ton of money for pills, how is this going to effect us if they are now introduced to a market of "Guaranteed money", essentially as long as people think they need it they will get ti.

Anyone?

This is one of those things nobody can explain.

Unless the govt is going to absorb our pharmasuetical industry as well?

I absolutely can explain.

When it costs $300 a month for a heart prescription here when the drug comes from Indiana but yet when I order the same medication from the Fiji islands and it costs $150 the Pharmaceutical Companies deserve to be reined in by the Government.

I would start by banning the phoney TV ads immediately.

It's suplly and demand, Dave. The market will bear the $300 price in the US; if they charged $300 for it in Fiji no one could afford to buy it. We are essentially subsidizing other markets.

Actually that is not 100% true.

Fiji, Canada and other countries have laws that limit the amount of money these companies can make.

So they are forced to sell the drugs for cost, or close to cost.

However, creating all these wonderful new drugs cost a lot of money in research.

And since they can?t make any money in foreign markets they have to get that money from someplace so they raise the prices here in the US where there are no artificial limits on what they can charge.

So the US consumers are essentially footing the bill for all new drug research, while Fiji and Canada are just enjoying the use of the new medicines.

Of course Dave is going to suggest that we pass laws that limit what these companies can charge in the US too.

If we did that though the companies R&D funds would dry up and we would be relying on government research money for all our new drugs.

I don't even have enough words for such a Pro-Business Anti-American such as you.

You claim to be so Pro-Capitalism yet acquiesce to allow the U.S. Corporations to rape and price gouge American citizens to subsidize other Country citizens because their Governments saw the price gouging being done by said U.S. Drug Companies so they limited them.

If the Drug Companies don't like it they are free not to sell to the Countries that have limits on them but for damn sure it is not RIGHT for them to put the cost on the backs of AMERICAN CITIZENS simply because they bought control of the United States Government.

All Americans should not only rise up against the Drug Companies, but our Government as well as people that support this pillaging.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Pabster, you are paying more via the taxes than any nation that has universal health care, does this system please you because you're so god damn happy to pay more for less or what is it about it that is so great?

I like being responsible for my OWN health care. That means all the choices that go with it. I don't want Hillary or anyone else dictating it. I have no problem with the cost; We have the best health care system in the world - far superior to the socialized medicine systems you seem so fond of.

Ask any of the 45 million people without healthcare if they agree with that one.

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Pabster, you are paying more via the taxes than any nation that has universal health care, does this system please you because you're so god damn happy to pay more for less or what is it about it that is so great?

I like being responsible for my OWN health care. That means all the choices that go with it. I don't want Hillary or anyone else dictating it. I have no problem with the cost; We have the best health care system in the world - far superior to the socialized medicine systems you seem so fond of.

Ask any of the 45 million people without healthcare if they agree with that one.

A lot of that 45 million are people like me who don't have healthcare because they choose not to pay for it.

I also believe that a lot of those people qualify or are in government run programs, but are still counted because they don't have private healthcare.

In essence the 45 million figure is political BS created to make the problem seem worse than it actually is.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Pabster, you are paying more via the taxes than any nation that has universal health care, does this system please you because you're so god damn happy to pay more for less or what is it about it that is so great?

I like being responsible for my OWN health care. That means all the choices that go with it. I don't want Hillary or anyone else dictating it. I have no problem with the cost; We have the best health care system in the world - far superior to the socialized medicine systems you seem so fond of.

Ask any of the 45 million people without healthcare if they agree with that one.

Pabster will go for universal health care after the second time he's on life support after being blown our of his armored car because somebody saw him get in it looking healthy.

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: techs

Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY

Originally posted by: techs
You know what I miss? The "religious right" on this board who NEVER post in a thread about universal health care. Seems Jesus only wants to bomb Iraq and Iran and pass laws against homosexuals and the wearing of droopy pants.
In fact just the other day I saw Jesus (well at least it looked like him, long hair and a beard and old clothes) with a sign that said "You are not a Christian if you don't support keeping people from dying. Support Universal Health Care"

Hey look, it's the Jesus card again. Oh how I love it when the left suddenly supports Jesus and his teachings. The unfortunate part is they usually twist bits and pieces of the teachings to support whatever their agenda for the day is. Jesus was all for helping others, but there is nothing to suggest he would support the idea of FORCED helping. His teachings suggest we as individuals should help others of our own free will.

Your will is free. Help others.
Support universal health care.

I do support others. I do not support the gov't forcing everyone else to support others. My actions to help others are direct and willful. The gov't doesn't know what is best for everyone so to think that some blanket policy will be better than direct help is asinine.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: XMan
It's a simple question of supply and demand, really.

The automatic perception will be that the healthcare is "free", given that it's going to be coming out of witholding. That's going to create an increased demand on services. Normally in such a situation prices would increase to compensate, but government-run health care is in effect, a price control. As such, the natural result is going to be exactly like Canada and other places with nationalized health care. If prices can't go up as a result of demand, supply will go down, resulting in longer wait times for care.

Honestly it's a problem now. Folks with insurance feel like, hey, they've got it, they'll use it, and they go to the doctor for a chest cold or something similar, when they could just get some cold medicine at the pharmacy and not worry about it. I hate going to the doctor and refuse to go unless I'm hurting pretty bad. I wish more people would do the same.

Government run (or funded) health care doesn't have to be a price control, that's certainly NOT the case in a lot of industries...again I'm thinking about the defense industry. Despite the government being the only customer, I don't see companies being reluctant to designed and build the latest generation of weapons.

As for the "overuse" problem, that seems like a negative byproduct of health care in general that's difficult to avoid. I don't think that means we just don't provide health care. That seems very much like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

It's not the government's job to provide it. It's their job to ensure that the playing field is relatively level for all consumers, by regulation of insurance companies, medical licensing, etc.

Government control of any sort of industry is going to stem innovation, because it removes the incentive to innovate. As you said, the defense industry is a perfect example. For another example, let's take the phone companies, and the airlines. Both were highly regulated in the past, and both charged very high high fees for their services. When government involvement was reduced, it opened the market for innovation and competition. Voila, cheap long distance and cheap airfare.

IS the defense industry really a good example? The government awards contracts by competition in most cases, and that has produced the most advanced military hardware in the world.

You're confusing two different things, regulation and funding. There is NOTHING about government involvement in an industry that REQUIRES crippling regulations or suppression of innovation, that simply comes about sometimes. Government can (and does) encourage competition if the programs are designed right, there is no reason at all that private companies can't compete to provide the government with services. And as an added bonus, the government is very good at establishing standards for service, which almost always benefit the consumer in the long run.

 

[ProfJohn]

Nice like with information on who in America is uninsured
PBS Newshour
"The profile of the uninsured has not really changed much since we've been studying it," said Paul Fronstin, a senior research associate at the Employee Benefit Research Institute, who's been examining data on the uninsured for more than 15 years. "It's low income workers, it's people in the labor force or associated with someone in the labor force, and it's disproportionately tied to people who work in small businesses."

Instead of turning ALL healthcare over to the government why don?t we work on helping the poor and those who work in small businesses get insurance on their own?

 

[blackllotus]

Why does the government force me to support fire departments? Couldn't they be private businesses as well? It seems to me that any argument for or against universal healthcare could be applied to fire departments as well.

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Pabster, you are paying more via the taxes than any nation that has universal health care, does this system please you because you're so god damn happy to pay more for less or what is it about it that is so great?

I like being responsible for my OWN health care. That means all the choices that go with it. I don't want Hillary or anyone else dictating it. I have no problem with the cost; We have the best health care system in the world - far superior to the socialized medicine systems you seem so fond of.

Ask any of the 45 million people without healthcare if they agree with that one.

A lot of that 45 million are people like me who don't have healthcare because they choose not to pay for it.

I also believe that a lot of those people qualify or are in government run programs, but are still counted because they don't have private healthcare.

In essence the 45 million figure is political BS created to make the problem seem worse than it actually is.

I take your point about statistical manipulation, but instaed of having a discussion based on what we believe, lets look at what people who have put together studies have discovered.

The census bureau indcates 46 million were without insurance based on their criteria. http://www.census.gov/prod/2006pubs/p60-231.pdf Those covered by government insurance are included.

The Congressional Budge Office compared various studies and showed that between 21-31 million people were not covered at any point during an entire year, about 40 million were uninsured at a specific point over the year, and about 60 million were uninsured at any time during the year. http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdoc.cfm?...4210&type=0&sequence=1

If we wanted to spin, you could say its only 21 million and I could say its 60 million, but we don't know how long the period where those people were not covered lasted.

Either way, I'm not sure how important it is. 21 million or 60 million without insurance. I find neither acceptable, especially since unlike you, most uninsured are not so by choice, or their choice is between insurance and food/rent.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Nice like with information on who in America is uninsured
PBS Newshour
"The profile of the uninsured has not really changed much since we've been studying it," said Paul Fronstin, a senior research associate at the Employee Benefit Research Institute, who's been examining data on the uninsured for more than 15 years. "It's low income workers, it's people in the labor force or associated with someone in the labor force, and it's disproportionately tied to people who work in small businesses."

Instead of turning ALL healthcare over to the government why don?t we work on helping the poor and those who work in small businesses get insurance on their own?

The private health insurance industry had 15 years after demise of HillaryCare to "work on" that. Now it's time for government to step in.

And, by the way, the reason so few over 65 and other groups are uninsured is because of the government programs like Medicare and Medicaid. So the government is not the problem, it's the solution.

 

[Zedtom]

When a politician discusses health care, he or she is secure in the knowledge that they themselves are covered by a government managed health care program. They are also probably recipients of donations from HMO's and insurance companies.

The first politician to declare that they have refused to enroll in the employer's health care program and are paying their own way will be able to criticize without prejudice. (The governor of California, maybe?).

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Nice like with information on who in America is uninsured
PBS Newshour
"The profile of the uninsured has not really changed much since we've been studying it," said Paul Fronstin, a senior research associate at the Employee Benefit Research Institute, who's been examining data on the uninsured for more than 15 years. "It's low income workers, it's people in the labor force or associated with someone in the labor force, and it's disproportionately tied to people who work in small businesses."

Instead of turning ALL healthcare over to the government why don?t we work on helping the poor and those who work in small businesses get insurance on their own?

The private health insurance industry had 15 years after demise of HillaryCare to "work on" that. Now it's time for government to step in.

And, by the way, the reason so few over 65 and other groups are uninsured is because of the government programs like Medicare and Medicaid. So the government is not the problem, it's the solution.

Aren?t you one of the people who scream the most about the government solution to terrorism?

And you seemed to have missed my point? let?s work on developing government assisted plans to help the poor get insurance BEFORE we turn the whole thing over to the government.

4 out of 5 Americans have some type of health insurance. 1 in 5 do not.
My idea is to help the 1 in 5 get insurance if they want it.
Your idea is to take that 1 in 5 AND the people who do have health insurance and force them all into government run healthcare.

 

[Toastedlightly]

I personally would like to keep the government as far away from my life as possible.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
I personally would like to keep the government as far away from my life as possible.

:thumbsup:

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
I personally would like to keep the government as far away from my life as possible.

Fair enough, but is that the best way to run a government? It isn't supposed to cater to your personal views, the government's job is to look after EVERYONE, operating on the theory that it all evens out. That doesn't mean the government should have unlimited authority to support general welfare, but "I want the government to leave me alone" is not a good place to draw the line.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Toastedlightly
I personally would like to keep the government as far away from my life as possible.

As would any sane person until they fall sick in the ditch and die there without any resources. You have philosophy of all those who have never known suffering or misery you can't escape alone. You are one lucky porker and a porker, of course, because you attribute your luck to your own devises instead of a favorable fate, up to this point in your life. Your hidden feelings of inferiority create that piggish illusion that your greatness is in how well you take care of yourself. May you live long in your soap bubble dream and self flattering arrogance.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Nice like with information on who in America is uninsured
PBS Newshour
"The profile of the uninsured has not really changed much since we've been studying it," said Paul Fronstin, a senior research associate at the Employee Benefit Research Institute, who's been examining data on the uninsured for more than 15 years. "It's low income workers, it's people in the labor force or associated with someone in the labor force, and it's disproportionately tied to people who work in small businesses."

Instead of turning ALL healthcare over to the government why don?t we work on helping the poor and those who work in small businesses get insurance on their own?

You've had eight god damned years to "help the poor and who who work in small businesses".

Your ilk are the ones that made more poor and more people working in small businesses that are now uninsured.

Get your nefarious agendas straight man.

 

[blackangst1]

I know! Lets take a system already mired down by bureaucracy and inefficiency and turn it over to the government! Yeah! There's sooo many examples of how that has worked!

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: blackangst1
I know! Lets take a system already mired down by bureaucracy and inefficiency and turn it over to the government! Yeah! There's sooo many examples of how that has worked!

Anything has to better than the way it is now.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Nice like with information on who in America is uninsured
PBS Newshour
"The profile of the uninsured has not really changed much since we've been studying it," said Paul Fronstin, a senior research associate at the Employee Benefit Research Institute, who's been examining data on the uninsured for more than 15 years. "It's low income workers, it's people in the labor force or associated with someone in the labor force, and it's disproportionately tied to people who work in small businesses."

Instead of turning ALL healthcare over to the government why don?t we work on helping the poor and those who work in small businesses get insurance on their own?

The private health insurance industry had 15 years after demise of HillaryCare to "work on" that. Now it's time for government to step in.

And, by the way, the reason so few over 65 and other groups are uninsured is because of the government programs like Medicare and Medicaid. So the government is not the problem, it's the solution.

Aren?t you one of the people who scream the most about the government solution to terrorism?

And you seemed to have missed my point? let?s work on developing government assisted plans to help the poor get insurance BEFORE we turn the whole thing over to the government.

4 out of 5 Americans have some type of health insurance. 1 in 5 do not.
My idea is to help the 1 in 5 get insurance if they want it.
Your idea is to take that 1 in 5 AND the people who do have health insurance and force them all into government run healthcare.

That's your idea of what my idea is. My idea is not to have government run healthcare at all, just government paid healthcare, like Medicare already is. Medicare for all.
But I agree with you that Republicans should not be trusted with creating this system, because they have botched handling of pretty much everything they touched, including terrorism.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: XMan

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Kur
My main issue is pharmaceutical companies and their insane prices, we have to pull their legs to not charge us a ton of money for pills, how is this going to effect us if they are now introduced to a market of "Guaranteed money", essentially as long as people think they need it they will get ti.

Anyone?

This is one of those things nobody can explain.

Unless the govt is going to absorb our pharmasuetical industry as well?

I absolutely can explain.

When it costs $300 a month for a heart prescription here when the drug comes from Indiana but yet when I order the same medication from the Fiji islands and it costs $150 the Pharmaceutical Companies deserve to be reined in by the Government.

I would start by banning the phoney TV ads immediately.

It's suplly and demand, Dave. The market will bear the $300 price in the US; if they charged $300 for it in Fiji no one could afford to buy it. We are essentially subsidizing other markets.

You just cannot admit to being goughed to the tune of a thousand percent! Sucker is the label that you are afraid of bearing. A free market has choice and competition, US health care just has a universal case of price fixing.

 

[Wreckem]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Nice like with information on who in America is uninsured
PBS Newshour
"The profile of the uninsured has not really changed much since we've been studying it," said Paul Fronstin, a senior research associate at the Employee Benefit Research Institute, who's been examining data on the uninsured for more than 15 years. "It's low income workers, it's people in the labor force or associated with someone in the labor force, and it's disproportionately tied to people who work in small businesses."

Instead of turning ALL healthcare over to the government why don?t we work on helping the poor and those who work in small businesses get insurance on their own?

The private health insurance industry had 15 years after demise of HillaryCare to "work on" that. Now it's time for government to step in.

And, by the way, the reason so few over 65 and other groups are uninsured is because of the government programs like Medicare and Medicaid. So the government is not the problem, it's the solution.

Aren?t you one of the people who scream the most about the government solution to terrorism?

And you seemed to have missed my point? let?s work on developing government assisted plans to help the poor get insurance BEFORE we turn the whole thing over to the government.

4 out of 5 Americans have some type of health insurance. 1 in 5 do not.
My idea is to help the 1 in 5 get insurance if they want it.
Your idea is to take that 1 in 5 AND the people who do have health insurance and force them all into government run healthcare.

That's your idea of what my idea is. My idea is not to have government run healthcare at all, just government paid healthcare, like Medicare already is. Medicare for all.
But I agree with you that Republicans should not be trusted with creating this system, because they have botched handling of pretty much everything they touched, including terrorism.

Considering Medicare will be $50trillion short. Yeah we can really afford universial healthcare.

Just to cover medicare liabilities the tax rate will have to go over 50%, closer to 60%. What do you want a tax rate of 65% or higher?

 

[WHAMPOM]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Pabster, you are paying more via the taxes than any nation that has universal health care, does this system please you because you're so god damn happy to pay more for less or what is it about it that is so great?

I like being responsible for my OWN health care. That means all the choices that go with it. I don't want Hillary or anyone else dictating it. I have no problem with the cost; We have the best health care system in the world - far superior to the socialized medicine systems you seem so fond of.

Getting your drugs from Mexico and surgery in India? Or are you still using that forged Canadian health card?