Universal Healthcare in the USA

[doubledeluxe]

Had someone get into a big debate with me the other day about everything Anti-American and he brought up Michael Moore. I had to run the gauntlet from 911 to fat people to capitalism. The works. Now I've read some of his books and seen some of his movies but we're talking years ago. Never liked the guy. Always felt like he missed a good opportunity to make his point by showing both sides of a story but only shows one. So naturally I got very defensive. Busted out links, statistics, you name it. However he got me when he brought up the movie Sicko because I've never seen it. So I watched it tonight for the first time.

I have now lived in and visited countries where they have universal healthcare and benefited from it. I'm not unhealthy but shit just comes up and I just happen to travel a lot so I have been to hospitals, clinics, doctors, and pharmacies in a handful of countries on 5 continents now. What amazes me is that in every other country that I have been to and needed a doctor the cost was either so insignificant or it was free. The care was always good or even amazing. Sometimes the facilities are not that great when I'm in a really rural area but the professionalism of the doctors is always top notch and the wait time is generally very low. I'm not only talking about rich countries like France or the UK either. Zimbabwe had free healthcare and besides lots of paint peeling from the walls I thought their staff and service was impeccable. They made me go buy a 5 cent notepad across the street so that I would have a written record of my care and then everything was free. In Malawi the cost was arguably the most expensive I have ever had outside of the USA. It cost me $100 to see a doctor and get some deep cuts taken care of plus medication. I feel like I got the beloved patriot price though so maybe I should have bartered. In Nepal I spent maybe $12 for an emergency doctors visit and medication. In Europe I have never paid more than $15 a visit. MRI or bandaid it's $15. Buying medication in places like South Africa or Thailand or getting immunizations cost as little as 1/500th the price of what my insurance company quoted me in the USA. In India I got Delhi Belly and Sipro cost about a quarter. A yellow fever vaccine cost $250 in the USA and is free at the airports of most countries who need them. If it's not there it's at a center right by the airport. Then there's the mental healthcare. I have never needed it but seeing a friend have a professional come to their home several times a week for years to make sure they are mentally healthy is quite a sight to behold.

All I know is that my expenses for healthcare are practically nil in every country but the US. The aggravation is non-existent. There are no insurance companies. No refused treatment. No having to go across town or to another city because the doctor in your area will not take your insurance plan. No bankruptcies. Nothing linking your healthcare to your employer. No need to work past retirement until you die to pay for healthcare. It's just provided. It's a given that you have access to all the healthcare you need.

The first thing I'm sure someone will say is that we have to wait 9 months to get a checkup in these socialist states. I haven't experienced that. I have a friend who had to wait a few months to get their hip replaced but it's apparently a semi-regular thing and not an emergency. Not sure how that is in the US but it's the only example I know of where someone needed to wait.

Next is the taxes. Surely these socialist states have awful taxes. Well it's true the taxes are higher in some countries with universal healthcare. However not in all and the USA isn't exactly a beacon of hope for low taxes. Those with the higher taxes tend to be in Europe and they are piling on lots of other benefits like free education so I don't know how much it really costs for just the healthcare part. Either way it's worth it. Who really benefits from our system? Only those who make a ton of money. Even that's not really true though since healthcare costs can exceed $30,000 a year for the rich since they get no subsidies. How much income do you need to have to make that number be 10% of your income? $300,000 a year. I think I'd rather just tack on 10% in taxes. Odds are you don't need 10% to cover it though. The USA has a max tax rate of 55.9% behind Scandinavia and France. However like I said above you have to consider all the other benefits that fall under those higher taxes. The vast majority of Americans would benefit greatly from universal coverage. I would then argue that the remaining tiny percentage would benefit from spending a little bit more money to live in a society with healthier people. It's quite amazing.

I can't figure out how to find cancer survival rates by country but the two most oft quoted numbers are infant mortality and life expectancy. The US ranks low - 34 in both. Behind countries that we consider 3rd world. I currently live in South America and would you believe it that Colombia, Chile, and Argentina all have healthcare systems ranked higher than the USA? I mean what the fuck is up with that?!

So my question is really, does anyone here, after all the talk about Obamacare really oppose universal healthcare? What's stopping us from getting it? How do we get the insurance companies out of the equation? In the movie they said that if they tried to take the national healthcare system away from the British there would be a revolution. It's that important to them. Why is it not important enough for us to stand up and demand it NOW?

 

[Ns1]

tl/dr need cliffs.

damn bro you got 448 posts already???

 

[doubledeluxe]

First and last paragraph would be the cliffs.

 

[Ns1]

in that case


<---- P&N

 

[doubledeluxe]

We are in there.

 

[zanejohnson]

it's all about greed, it really is. and our stupid ass drug war!

alot of the crap that people tie up our health system with, they jump through tons of hoops, need to get a referrel, need to go a doc that has the right credentials to prescribe xx medication (usually pain specialists for scheduled meds, or maintenance/detox meds after the pain meds)....

in other countries..they just go the pharmacy..

hydrocodone, the most prescribed medicine in the united states (more prescribed than even birth control, or hypertension medications)

is schedule 2 in this country, so, you gotta realize that takes a referrel from your primary care doc, to a pain specialist....that's already 2 doctors visits!!

every other country, usually OTC...

greed and the drug war.

there's a reason there's freaking warring cartels in existence to support a black market drug market in our country,... in the country directly bordering us..

the problem is, they are now in bed with our own politicians, to keep these drugs illegal so that they can continue to profit from this nonsense.

 

[ivwshane]

Dems are for universal health care, republicans are not, end of story.

Universal health care has a lot if benefits other than health related ones. Universal health care would allow businesses to be more profitable, it would allow people to be more mobile (as in moving between employers), which would make employees worth more. It would also allow smaller employers to compete against larger companies for good employees. It raises the standard of living and it allows people to spend more of their money on non essential items which in turn grows the economy.

The only argument I hear against it is "socialism is bad" derp!

I believe we or maybe one other country now are the only countries left that haven't moved to a universal health care system, that should tell you something.

Just wait for the idiots to show up in this thread and you will see what the US is up against.

 

[doubledeluxe]

In other countries you do need a referral however it's done electronically. So you see your doctor, walk down the hall or across the street to get an x-ray, show them your ID, then walk to the pharmacy on your way out and pick up your prescription.

Now in some countries I was able to actually negotiate with the pharmacy to give me medication without a prescription. I was so damn sick in India that there was no way I was going to make it to the doctor to get a prescription without shitting my pants. The pharmacist made me promise I wouldn't tell anyone that he gave me antibiotics without a prescription. In Thailand they just sell it over the counter. Super cheap. Super easy.

 

[zanejohnson]

that too. the two party system perpetuates the ridiculousnes.

R's hate anything they see (or the R talking heads tell them) is socialist.

the D's want socialized healthcare.

 

[zanejohnson]

In other countries you do need a referral however it's done electronically. So you see your doctor, walk down the hall or across the street to get an x-ray, show them your ID, then walk to the pharmacy on your way out and pick up your prescription.

Now in some countries I was able to actually negotiate with the pharmacy to give me medication without a prescription. I was so damn sick in India that there was no way I was going to make it to the doctor to get a prescription without shitting my pants. The pharmacist made me promise I wouldn't tell anyone that he gave me antibiotics without a prescription. In Thailand they just sell it over the counter. Super cheap. Super easy.

my only experience abroad is in Mexico, and there hydrocodone, and anxiety meds were available right in the pharmacy, the pharmacist wrote the prescription.

 

[zanejohnson]

it's fucked because our medical system, ties right into our drug war, ties right into our incarceration system (5 percent of the world population, 25 percent of the worlds incarcerated) and think about how much money is involved there.

HAHAHA, it's ridiculous.

FREEDOM! MURRICA!

 

[Mai72]

I'm just going to be brief. I've traveled to South Korea and Thailand. I lived in SK for 2 years, and Thailand for 5 months. I really do miss the health care in these countries. A visit to a hospital in Bangkok was $25 USD. I had root canal in Bangkok. The procedure cost me $400. The same procedure in New Jersey would have cost me nearly $1,000.

When people put down healthcare abroad it's because they don't know any better. Most people have never traveled overseas. If they have traveled abroad, they would be demanding more from their health care providers. They would also be demanding cheaper services. As it stands now Americans foolishly accept the high cost of health care.

 

[doubledeluxe]

The idea of socialism that we have is not in tune with reality. We seem to be holding onto cold war ideas. As if mother russia wants you to exchange free healthcare for your freedom. That's not how it works. You exchange insurance and all the bullshit for a much simpler system and some extra taxes. However you have to do the math. If you take away all the costs you're paying now, the deductibles, copays, etc and add on the taxes you will most likely come out ahead unless you're super rich.

 

[compuwiz1]

it's fucked because our medical system, ties right into our drug war, ties right into our incarceration system (5 percent of the world population, 25 percent of the worlds incarcerated) and think about how much money is involved there.

HAHAHA, it's ridiculous.

FREEDOM! MURRICA!

You're a hard core drug addict, from what I remember...... your post doesn't surprise me. Did you quit the shit, or do you troll for like minded people?

 

[zanejohnson]

You're a hard core drug addict, from what I remember...... your post doesn't surprise me. Did you quit the shit, or do you troll for like minded people?

it's just an observation, i wasn't trolling....

was that a thinly veiled attempt at a personal attack or are you really asking me a question?

 

[Matt1970]

Everyone will shit a brick when they see the tax bill for universal care.

 

[Timorous]

Everyone will shit a brick when they see the tax bill for universal care.

Really? In the UK the tax bill is paid via national insurance which covers more than just healthcare. It is 11% of your salary but it only starts being taken above a certain income level. For the average income in the UK (£26,500) the monthly bill for National Insurance is £185.44

That covers all doctor and hospital visits and it subsidises dental care. You pay for your prescriptions which are a flat £8.05. If you need multiple prescriptions over a certain period you can buy a plan which reduces the cost a bit.

To me that does not really seem too expensive and people do not end up facing bankruptcy because they got taken to the wrong hospital while unconscious.

 

[Matt1970]

Really? In the UK the tax bill is paid via national insurance which covers more than just healthcare. It is 11% of your salary but it only starts being taken above a certain income level. For the average income in the UK (£26,500) the monthly bill for National Insurance is £185.44

That covers all doctor and hospital visits and it subsidises dental care. You pay for your prescriptions which are a flat £8.05. If you need multiple prescriptions over a certain period you can buy a plan which reduces the cost a bit.

To me that does not really seem too expensive and people do not end up facing bankruptcy because they got taken to the wrong hospital while unconscious.

Oh they will be shitting a brick. People here already think they are taxed too high, now tack on an 11% income tax.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

A doctor visit for me is about $20 after I get past the $300 deductible ($700 max for family). A MRI or Catscan costs me less than $100. If I need to get an operation which includes knee or hip replacement it's occurs as soon as the doctor/hospital has an opening, normally 2 to 3 weeks. My max out of pocket is $2,000 individual/$4,000 family. Emergency coverage is at in-network prices though I haven't found a facility that doesn't accept the insurance that the company I work for uses to administer their plans.

I pay $325/month for a family plan that includes dental and vision. My prescription cost $10 for a 30 day supply and $20 for a 90 day supply, generic of course and sometimes it's less depending on the drug. Company pays 80% on name brand drugs.

Based on what my colleagues pay for universal healthcare at the European locations it's not that much different.

 

[Bowfinger]

Oh they will be shitting a brick. People here already think they are taxed too high, now tack on an 11% income tax.

... and eliminate the hundreds per month they pay for health insurance, and the hundreds (or thousands) they pay for medical expenses each year. It's time for Republicans to pull their heads out and accept what the rest of the first world learned a long time ago: universal healthcare delivers superior service to far more people at a substantially lower cost per person. The only reason the U.S. would be different is there are so many committed to ensuring it fails, die-hard ideologues and greedy asshats who feel entitled to gouge other human beings who are suffering.

 

[Bowfinger]

A doctor visit for me is about $20 after I get past the $300 deductible ($700 max for family). A MRI or Catscan costs me less than $100. If I need to get an operation which includes knee or hip replacement it's occurs as soon as the doctor/hospital has an opening, normally 2 to 3 weeks. My max out of pocket is $2,000 individual/$4,000 family. Emergency coverage is at in-network prices though I haven't found a facility that doesn't accept the insurance that the company I work for uses to administer their plans.

I pay $325/month for a family plan that includes dental and vision. My prescription cost $10 for a 30 day supply and $20 for a 90 day supply, generic of course and sometimes it's less depending on the drug. Company pays 80% on name brand drugs.

Based on what my colleagues pay for universal healthcare at the European locations it's not that much different.

And if all Americans had generous employers who offered such heavily-subsidized plans, that would be a useful comparison. But they don't, and it isn't

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

The problem is that the US is a cluster politically. There is no accountability in office. Hell, there's no accountability at the poll because you are going to get what you are given by the Big Two. Universal care in the US means those people who just made hydrocodone a schedule II drug, which is an unnecessary pain in the ass and is ultimately futile, will be in charge. They can't get Vicodin right and they are going to be in charge? Well it is a political solution, and that's what we're capable of. Not one which medically makes much sense, but if you think that RICK PERRY (nod to another member here) and Charlie Rangel really have the ability to spend the necessary time to get schooled to even begin the process as well as being not only non partisan but apolitical as well then that's grand. The idea is one thing, the practical application in the current system isn't going to be what people hope for.

 

[Leymenaide]

A doctor visit for me is about $20 after I get past the $300 deductible ($700 max for family). A MRI or Catscan costs me less than $100. If I need to get an operation which includes knee or hip replacement it's occurs as soon as the doctor/hospital has an opening, normally 2 to 3 weeks. My max out of pocket is $2,000 individual/$4,000 family. Emergency coverage is at in-network prices though I haven't found a facility that doesn't accept the insurance that the company I work for uses to administer their plans.

I pay $325/month for a family plan that includes dental and vision. My prescription cost $10 for a 30 day supply and $20 for a 90 day supply, generic of course and sometimes it's less depending on the drug. Company pays 80% on name brand drugs.

Based on what my colleagues pay for universal healthcare at the European locations it's not that much different.

I hope you have thanked the folks paying your insurance. My family coverage from a fortune 200 corp:
500 month.
I pay 15 percent of negotiated cost after 6k deduct. I can and do put 6k into health savings.

 

[Meghan54]

Oh they will be shitting a brick. People here already think they are taxed too high, now tack on an 11% income tax.

You speak like it'd be an additional cost above and beyond what you're paying for health ins. premiums already......and that's incorrect.

But you forget, if it were truly universal health care, your employer would no longer be paying for insurance via massive premiums. The average per year spent on health premiums by an employer and employee for single person coverage is roughly $6,000. That's ~$500 per month you and your employer are paying for insurance, the bulk by the employer. (The split works out to, on average, $1080 from the employee, $4,944 from the employer. Family plan ins. coverage averages $16,800 per year in premiums, $4,800 from the employee, $12,000 from the employer.)

Source: http://kff.org/report-section/ehbs-2014-summary-of-findings/ (Exhibit B is the quick reference chart.)


Now imagine your employer not having to kick in $400/mo for health insurance per worker. What would happen you your pay, hopefully---if the company isn't absolutely greedy? Realistically, it should go up by a like amount, so your pay would completely offset any tax increase that'd happen.

 

[Brovane]

Really? In the UK the tax bill is paid via national insurance which covers more than just healthcare. It is 11% of your salary but it only starts being taken above a certain income level. For the average income in the UK (£26,500) the monthly bill for National Insurance is £185.44

That covers all doctor and hospital visits and it subsidises dental care. You pay for your prescriptions which are a flat £8.05. If you need multiple prescriptions over a certain period you can buy a plan which reduces the cost a bit.

To me that does not really seem too expensive and people do not end up facing bankruptcy because they got taken to the wrong hospital while unconscious.

That isn't bad. Works out to around 8.4% of salary if you look at average income and monthly bill. Do companies in the UK kick in any money or it just supported by individuals?