Universal Healthcare in the USA

[doubledeluxe]

What if all Americans actually traveled overseas and saw how others lived? It has become more dramatic in recent years and it should be obvious on even a 2 week vacation to Europe that something is seriously wrong with our system at home and things need to change. I'm not saying they have it perfect but there are certain things that they have so good and we should be importing to the US like vacation and healthcare.

Food for thought.

At most 36% of Americans have ever been overseas. That's assuming they use their passport though. They have done polls and the reason they don't travel is because they can't afford it and don't have the time. Well maybe it's time that people invest in seeing what's out there so that they can vote intelligently or apply to jobs that pay more and/or give more time off.

http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/

Mess with the sliders. See what it looks like for you. No matter what I try I cannot get the USA to be in the top 10 for me. It's somewhere between 11 and 14 depending on what I mess with.

Overall how is the USA doing? Well out of 34 counties in the OECD...

Land of opportunity: 12 countries rank higher
Joy of life: 16 countries rank higher
Safety: 28 countries rank higher
Jobs: 10 countries rank higher
Education: A lot of countries rank higher
Environment: "
Democracy: "
Life Satisfaction: "

And so on.

Point being is that there are other countries out there that are doing something right. It seems to me fairly clear that we should look at what they're doing and make something better for us here. Healthcare is just the tip of the iceberg but it's so obvious.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Some of us have traveled overseas and have good healthcare plans in the US that costs just about the same as is paid by those in countries that have UHC. I submitted the bills for the medical services I received overseas and was reimbursed 80% of the cost.

 

[Moonbeam]

What if all Americans actually traveled overseas and saw how others lived? It has become more dramatic in recent years and it should be obvious on even a 2 week vacation to Europe that something is seriously wrong with our system at home and things need to change. I'm not saying they have it perfect but there are certain things that they have so good and we should be importing to the US like vacation and healthcare.

Food for thought.

At most 36% of Americans have ever been overseas. That's assuming they use their passport though. They have done polls and the reason they don't travel is because they can't afford it and don't have the time. Well maybe it's time that people invest in seeing what's out there so that they can vote intelligently or apply to jobs that pay more and/or give more time off.


http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/

Mess with the sliders. See what it looks like for you. No matter what I try I cannot get the USA to be in the top 10 for me. It's somewhere between 11 and 14 depending on what I mess with.

Overall how is the USA doing? Well out of 34 counties in the OECD...

Land of opportunity: 12 countries rank higher
Joy of life: 16 countries rank higher
Safety: 28 countries rank higher
Jobs: 10 countries rank higher
Education: A lot of countries rank higher
Environment: "
Democracy: "
Life Satisfaction: "

And so on.

Point being is that there are other countries out there that are doing something right. It seems to me fairly clear that we should look at what they're doing and make something better for us here. Healthcare is just the tip of the iceberg but it's so obvious.

Next thing I suppose you'll tell me is I can save 15% at Geico. Everybody with a functioning brain has known this for a thousand years, give or take. Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to figure out how to convince those with a CBD. You may be amazed to learn they don't want to know what the truth is and will enjoy arguing the details till the end of time. Some alternate method of reaching them is needed. This may require that you consider the fact that you would rather argue with them than face the terrifying fact of their unwillingness to reason. They feel victimized and are defending their world view as if their lives depended on it, which, thanks to a fine mental health system and American freedom, I was fortunately able to verify they actually did as children.

 

[Moonbeam]

Some of us have traveled overseas and have good healthcare plans in the US that costs just about the same as is paid by those in countries that have UHC. I submitted the bills for the medical services I received overseas and was reimbursed 80% of the cost.

Fortunately for them they ALL have a good plan and no 20% fee.

 

[doubledeluxe]

Some of us have traveled overseas and have good healthcare plans in the US that costs just about the same as is paid by those in countries that have UHC. I submitted the bills for the medical services I received overseas and was reimbursed 80% of the cost.

That's actually pretty lousy. Break your leg skiing and you might be out $4000 even with that coverage.

You would have been far better off just getting some travel insurance while you were gone that would have covered 100% for $100 a month.

 

[doubledeluxe]

Also, it never costs the same in the US. That's something you just think is true because you don't see the total cost.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.PCAP/countries/US-SE-FR-AU-IT-NZ-CA?display=graph

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Next thing I suppose you'll tell me is I can save 15% at Geico. Everybody with a functioning brain has known this for a thousand years, give or take.

I think I agree with Double Deluxe on this one. Most Americans really have no idea what the quality of life is like in those evil socialist European countries. You're giving the average American too much credit.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Yes. Today's America is not the America that put a man on the moon. It's a whiny, spoiled, incompetent shadow of its former self.

And it can never change so you guys are just going to sit and complain and watch your country collapse? That certainly seems to be what more than a few of you are saying and as I said before, that's just sad.

 

[Spungo]

... diagnosing and managing medical conditions. QED. I mean, it's such a dumb statement, I don't even know where to begin.

Are you aware that this makes up an extremely small percentage of all medical care?

I know this might come as a shock to you, but most people don't have cancer. Most people don't have HIV. The overwhelming majority of people going to the clinic are there because they need stitches, they need an x-ray, they have an ear infection, they have strep throat, they're having an allergic reaction, they want a referral to a different kind of doctor. Of the people who do have serious medical problems, most of their stuff can be done by a nurse.

Sadly, every profession is like this. Everyone seems overqualified for every job. Getting an engineering degree includes a lot of math and physics, but it's never used. Most of the engineering I do could probably be done by a high school student with a little bit of training. We're trying to add 100 amp load and each conductor can carry 20A of the load, how many conductors per phase do we need for this load. Is it delta or wye, does it need a transformer, is the cable shielded or unshielded, can the existing cable tray hold it, does it affect upstream equipment. Most of this could be done by computers.

Speaking of computers, doctors can be mostly replaced by robots.

 

[TheVrolok]

The overwhelming majority of people going to the clinic are there because they need stitches, they need an x-ray, they have an ear infection, they have strep throat, they're having an allergic reaction, they want a referral to a different kind of doctor. Of the people who do have serious medical problems, most of their stuff can be done by a nurse.

This is just completely wrong. Maybe for an urgent care clinic, but an internists office? Not even close. Quite frankly, you're just showing your complete ignorance.

 

[Nebor]

And it can never change so you guys are just going to sit and complain and watch your country collapse? That certainly seems to be what more than a few of you are saying and as I said before, that's just sad.

No, I'm going to continue to be industrious and forward thinking so that when we do eventually become a Greece-style failed state under the weight of entitlements, I'm near the top of the heap and able to live comfortably or leave.

It doesn't matter to me if the government decides to put together a Universal Healthcare system as long as I'm not personally required to utilize it. I don't even mind paying for it. I'm sure it'll be a huge cluster fuck, because that's just how the government works.

 

[doubledeluxe]

No, I'm going to continue to be industrious and forward thinking so that when we do eventually become a Greece-style failed state under the weight of entitlements, I'm near the top of the heap and able to live comfortably or leave.

It doesn't matter to me if the government decides to put together a Universal Healthcare system as long as I'm not personally required to utilize it. I don't even mind paying for it. I'm sure it'll be a huge cluster fuck, because that's just how the government works.

What good is being the top of the heap when you're so far behind other countries? Who is going to be left living with you? Only the dumb people who stayed behind? Take Greece for example. Where do you think all their high paying professionals have gone? That's right, other countries. Greece is suffering a brain drain right now. Their students are leaving. Their professionals are leaving. People will go where they can get jobs, get paid fairly, and can get benefits. Only the most ignorant will stay behind because they don't know any better.

 

[Spungo]

This is just completely wrong. Maybe for an urgent care clinic, but an internists office? Not even close. Quite frankly, you're just showing your complete ignorance.

Quick, tell me the last time you personally needed a GP in a non-emergency situation to diagnose something.

Even the really serious problems are not handled by your family doctor. If your family doctor thinks you might have cancer, they refer you to another doctor that is better suited for making that call. If they suspect one of many common chronic problems, they'll refer you to a lab that takes blood and tests things. A doctor is needed to look at the results of that test, but why do we need doctors doing the initial referral?

I think dentistry has a better model. When you go the dentist, does the dentist clean your teeth? No. Their assistant does that. Their assistant is the one who takes x-rays. Almost everything in a normal visit is done by the assistant. Why would we want dentists wasting their time cleaning teeth when that could just as easily be done by someone who isn't a dentist? Dentists only do things that are serious. They inject you with drugs, they pull teeth, they look at x-rays. What are we doing with doctors? Doctors are doing the equivalent of cleaning teeth.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Quick, tell me the last time you personally needed a GP in a non-emergency situation to diagnose something.

Even the really serious problems are not handled by your family doctor. If your family doctor thinks you might have cancer, they refer you to another doctor that is better suited for making that call. If they suspect one of many common chronic problems, they'll refer you to a lab that takes blood and tests things. A doctor is needed to look at the results of that test, but why do we need doctors doing the initial referral?

I think dentistry has a better model. When you go the dentist, does the dentist clean your teeth? No. Their assistant does that. Their assistant is the one who takes x-rays. Almost everything in a normal visit is done by the assistant. Why would we want dentists wasting their time cleaning teeth when that could just as easily be done by someone who isn't a dentist? Dentists only do things that are serious. They inject you with drugs, they pull teeth, they look at x-rays. What are we doing with doctors? Doctors are doing the equivalent of cleaning teeth.

You know who and what he is, right? I believe he knows far more on the matter than you do, unless you actually provide care.

 

[doubledeluxe]

I'm sitting here trying to figure out a way to end your argument.

How about:

Nurses Assess
Doctors Diagnose

?

So the question is then whether a Nurse should diagnose an ailment. You could have this same discussion about Pharmacists and I'm sure others but I'm pretty sure that the point of these professions is to keep them slightly separate.

Lets keep things in perspective. You can become a Nurse in 2 years. A doctor?

Doctors deal with basic things all day long. The rest they send to specialists. However they are damn good at it while a Nurse is damn good at a different aspect of the care.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I'm sitting here trying to figure out a way to end your argument.

How about:

Nurses Assess
Doctors Diagnose

?

So the question is then whether a Nurse should diagnose an ailment. You could have this same discussion about Pharmacists and I'm sure others but I'm pretty sure that the point of these professions is to keep them slightly separate.

Lets keep things in perspective. You can become a Nurse in 2 years. A doctor?

Doctors deal with basic things all day long. The rest they send to specialists. However they are damn good at it while a Nurse is damn good at a different aspect of the care.

Where he fails is in trying to neatly compartmentalize tasks and people and it doesn't work like that. There are nurse practitioners and physician assistants, and a latter is my primary and he's perfectly capable, but he works in a practice where he can consult with those with greater education if needed. For some reason people seems to think human bodies are cars you put on a lift. Just look around and plug in the diagnostics.

Well, no, it's far more complicated. Everyone is an individual and while we have common features in disease states what's behind something isn't always the same and often multiple issues are found in the same individual which are sometimes related and sometimes not. Of course a physician isn't always needed in all places at all times, but that's another area people haven't bothered to think about. Precisely what should be the mix of various practitioners? How many do we need of what kind? Where do they need to be? What about in ten years? You don't just say "crap we need more of X" and have it. It takes years of training to become competent in any field and the more specialized the longer it takes. That's where I become frustrated with the "well Europe does it" argument. Fine, they have an established system but again who do we expect to do this? Politicians, and they are absolutely the worst creatures to determine the future of your health. Remember there is a distinct difference between doing something and doing it right. If people are genuinely interested in proper reform then they at least ought to insist that the hacks in DC keep their hands off. Allow those who can do. Fund it? Sure. Oversight? Yep. Actually have their grubby fingers in it? Nope.

 

[Victorian Gray]

No, I'm going to continue to be industrious and forward thinking so that when we do eventually become a Greece-style failed state under the weight of entitlements, I'm near the top of the heap and able to live comfortably or leave.

It doesn't matter to me if the government decides to put together a Universal Healthcare system as long as I'm not personally required to utilize it. I don't even mind paying for it. I'm sure it'll be a huge cluster fuck, because that's just how the government works.

So, a straw man and a whine. Sad.

 

[Nebor]

So, a straw man and a whine. Sad.

It seems like a lot of things make you sad. Try not to let yourself be so easily impacted by the inconsequential happenings on an internet message board regarding events that have no bearing on yourself or even your country. If you need to talk to someone about your negative feelings, I know an excellent psychologist in the Vancouver area, and it won't cost you a thing to see him as it's covered under Canada's universal healthcare.

 

[Victorian Gray]

It seems like a lot of things make you sad. Try not to let yourself be so easily impacted by the inconsequential happenings on an internet message board regarding events that have no bearing on yourself or even your country. If you need to talk to someone about your negative feelings, I know an excellent psychologist in the Vancouver area, and it won't cost you a thing to see him as it's covered under Canada's universal healthcare.

I'm sad because a country that I (and a big chunk of the world) grew up admiring has, for the past 40 years or so, been busily turning itself into a fascistic, shit heap and it's been doing so with the aid of people with attitudes like yours. Your posts in this thread are prime examples, "oh woe, fucking me." and "fuck you". It's a lousy attitude and it's increasingly reflected in your country at large.

So, you have yourself a nice day now and try not to fuck up the rest of the world any more than you already have. Stick to fucking up your own country.

 

[fskimospy]

No, I'm going to continue to be industrious and forward thinking so that when we do eventually become a Greece-style failed state under the weight of entitlements, I'm near the top of the heap and able to live comfortably or leave.

It doesn't matter to me if the government decides to put together a Universal Healthcare system as long as I'm not personally required to utilize it. I don't even mind paying for it. I'm sure it'll be a huge cluster fuck, because that's just how the government works.

Thinking that the US is going to undergo something similar to what happened to Greece probably doesn't fall under the "forward looking" category. I would probably put it in the "conspiracy crank" category.

 

[Moonbeam]

I think I agree with Double Deluxe on this one. Most Americans really have no idea what the quality of life is like in those evil socialist European countries. You're giving the average American too much credit.

Perhaps the proviso that these things are known to anybody with a functioning brain lets out most Americans. You don't have to have been anywhere to have heard how much better things are for healthcare in Europe. I heard this at an early age. I think most people hear it at one time or another but they are so brainwashed by the notion that we are the best in everything that it gets no attention. I was taught that I should be humble and not to think too highly of myself for things like my race or my nationality. We are all going to die and that will make us all the same.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Perhaps the proviso that these things are known to anybody with a functioning brain lets out most Americans. You don't have to have been anywhere to have heard how much better things are for healthcare in Europe. I heard this at an early age. I think most people hear it at one time or another but they are so brainwashed by the notion that we are the best in everything that it gets no attention. I was taught that I should be humble and not to think too highly of myself for things like my race or my nationality. We are all going to die and that will make us all the same.

The problem I have M is not whether someone has something better, but how do we get to what is best for us. We've arrived at an end without considering how to get there.

"[The poem] came to me then, as if I was making it up; but I may have heard it long ago. Certainly it reminds me very much of Bilbo in the last years, before he went away. He used often to say there was only one Road; that it was like a great river: its springs were at every doorstep, and and every path was its tributary. 'It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door,' he used to say. 'You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to. Do you realize that this is the very path that goes through Mirkwood, and that if you let it, it might take you to the Lonely Mountains or even further and to worse places?' He used to say that on the path outside the front door at Bag End, especially after he had been out for a long walk."

We'd best keep to our feet when dreaming of Imladris or we might wind up in Barad-dûr. Shall we not try then? Of course we ought to, but we need a good map and trusty guides before embarking on a journey which cannot be undone. I'd prefer wisdom and knowledge over all else when dealing with such matters.

 

[schmuckley]

Why is healthcare so expensive in America?
Corrupt politicians and insurance lobbyists.
Going to the doctor now costs 10x what it did 8 years ago.
Cut all that out and make it straight doctor-patient...lo and behold..it would all straighten itself out.
Oh yeah..and cut big Pharma out of the picture by making most things available
over-the-counter.

 

[doubledeluxe]

I was taught that we were the best at everything. My family in the states still thinks that for the most part. However it doesn't take more than about 2 weeks overseas to realize not only are we not the best, we're downright lousy at most things related to quality of life. Our entire culture has basically substituted a good quality of life for what we call a standard of living. If you own lots of stuff you're considered doing well. Nobody has stopped to consider that material goods are not a substitute for good health, education, free time, and retirement.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I was taught that we were the best at everything. My family in the states still thinks that for the most part. However it doesn't take more than about 2 weeks overseas to realize not only are we not the best, we're downright lousy at most things related to quality of life. Our entire culture has basically substituted a good quality of life for what we call a standard of living. If you own lots of stuff you're considered doing well. Nobody has stopped to consider that material goods are not a substitute for good health, education, free time, and retirement.

The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.