Universal Healthcare in the USA

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TheVrolok

Lifer
Dec 11, 2000
24,254
4,090
136
Well it just has to be, right?

Healthcare is a fascinating topic. Virtually no understanding of the system, but they understand all anyway. Oh well, remember one of my old sayings, "No one knows you job better than someone who's never done it."

Truth. This probably the most exasperating thing. "People" have absolutely no clue whatsoever, complete ignorance, and yet of course they "know it all."

You realize training a physician is not cheap right? The government funds the majority of residency training costs. These funds have not increased significantly since 1996. That's the limiting factor.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/new...ss-retain-funding-for-residency-programs.page

But damnit, the AMA is artificially creating a physician shortage so that physicians can keep all their easy boatloads of cash! I know so, I read it on a pamphlet in my bunker that I've been prepping for the magnetic reversal of the poles which I expect will be happening in the next year or two. (I've been watching a lot of Doomsday Preppers, unfortunately).
 
Oct 30, 2004
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My advice to anyone that really desires universal health care very badly at this point is to consider moving to a country that offers it. The process can take some time so no better time to start than now. We're not going to have it here anytime soon. The Democrats saw to that.

Are you trying to say that if the Democrats had not advocated for Obamacare that the Republicans had a plan to implement socialized medicine?
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
A significant jump in doctor visits? Yeah, it really sucks that selfish people can go to the doctor when they're sick or injured. It might even end up catching some illness early that'll then require expensive treatment that someone will have to pay for.
Can't they just suffer and politely die early? That'd save the rest of us some money.

I didn't say it was a bad thing, it's just something that needs to be considered when factoring in cost.

And what of the candlemaking industry anyways? These electric lightbulbs will damage that industry. Are you going to tell them that they're going to be out of jobs? Outlaw lightbulbs!
Or hell, here's a disruptive one: Aluminum. Until the late 1800s, aluminum metal was rarer than gold, and at least as valuable. Then some people figured out how to inexpensively extract aluminum from its ore. They should have thrown them in prison and burned the research, as this surely caused big problems for the wealthy few who owned lavish items made of aluminum.




Yes, because long-term thinking is for small-minded morons. Short-term's where it's at. Screw the future!

False equivalencies. You are comparing natural courses of technological advancement vs. a government coming in a dissolving an industry.
 

Matt1970

Lifer
Mar 19, 2007
12,320
3
0
Do you have anything to back any of this up? Why does it work in EVERY OTHER developed nation on earth?

Didn't say it wouldn't work. I am just saying given our governments track record we would be very hard pressed to save dime 1. Evidence is what we have done with education.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Until the all-powerful insurance companies are eliminated we are stuck.

No. The government is also an all powerful insurance company and they screw up plenty.

Here's an analogy for the thought process about health care reform.

Some magical process gets us from where we are to some idealized system, completely disregarding the peculiarities of our nation, our Constitution, demographics, population density, political system and on and on. IMO the best first step would be to organize an apolitical body to perform a detailed analysis of what we currently have and what changes we need in advance of any reform. A secure network of centralized medical information available to practitioners anywhere in the US in real time would improve outcomes and ultimately reduce financial and human costs. That would be something that could be funded by the taxpayer which would be beneficial regardless of whatever changes are made, or not made, at some future time.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,418
1,599
126
A secure network of centralized medical information available to practitioners anywhere in the US in real time would improve outcomes and ultimately reduce financial and human costs.

lol. sounds like a 10 billion dollar project with 20 different consulting firms, that will be overbudget and overdue by 50 years. Although if you got Kaiser Permanante, you got centralized records just like you're asking for.

Maybe we should have KP take over ^_^ They are amazingly efficient in my experience.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
32
91
My favorite Canadian story is the guy who had brought his dog in to the vet. The vet recommended an MRI and, when asked when that could be done, told the man it could be done immediately. Surprised, the man asked why his dog could get an MRI immediately but it took him several months after a heart attack. The vet grinned and said something to the effect of "your dog doesn't have National Health Care."

Nonetheless, I'm flipping to favor "free" national health care. I have zero confidence that we'll do a good job of it, but now that the feds have seized control of health insurance the free market is doomed. Already people like myself working for small businesses have been driven to policies most doctors will not accept for new patients and many hospitals do not accept. Roughly a quarter of this nation's doctors already do not accept new patients on the Obamacare exchange policies, both because the pay rate is so low (like my own, where my deductible went up but provider reimbursement went way down) and because they fear they will not get paid at all (because so many low income people have selected cheaper high deductible policies and because the law requires that insurance be honored for 90 days after the insured stops paying the premium - but the insurer only has to pay the first 30 days of that.) We're rapidly becoming a three-tired level - really good insurance (government and large employers), poor insurance (individuals and small to medium employers), and uninsured. This is by design, and it's only going to get worse as more freebies are mandated while provider reimbursement continually drops. And people like myself are going to be where the pain is most inflicted. I'm folding early. Take it over; it's not like we're still really a people with much concept of standing on our hind legs anyway.

You would seem to imply that the prior system, free market health care, is some sort of utopia where people don't have to wait for MRI's, etc. It's easy to do that when you ignore all of the awful things that happened in the prior system--tens of thousands of people dying each year from lack of health care, sick people having their insurance coverage revoked, hundreds of thousands of medical cost-induced bankruptcies every year, etc.

I'm not a defender of Obamacare since I support real socialized medicine. I just want to point out that the previous system you seem to have fond memories of had horrible problems.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Didn't say it wouldn't work. I am just saying given our governments track record we would be very hard pressed to save dime 1. Evidence is what we have done with education.

Let's stick with health care.

There's a problem with hydrocodone abuse. What do the people that some want to give control of medicine do about it? They reschedule it to a C-II. What does that do? It raises the medication to a whole new level of restrictions and bureaucracy which is very expensive and legally onerous, however does nothing to prevent physicians from writing for it. In fact I've seen no changes whatsoever in dispensing habits for prescribers. The only thing is that now they can't put refills on the prescriptions. I should not be surprised if the rescheduling has cost a couple hundred of millions of dollars with little or no effect on abuse.

So what could have happened?

A Law: No prescription for any hydrocodone containing may be refilled. All such prescriptions require a new written order authorized by the practitioner, for a quantity not to exceed 30 days.

Still a C-III drug. Still limits quantities and refills. Doesn't require a whole huge section of increased secure storage. Doesn't increase costs.

A no brainer for those who have a clue, but politicians don't reach the bar in that department. A political move to create an onerous law and regulations with minimal impact.

Now when such a simple thing is fubared, why should I expect the same process handling something which is thousands of times more complex be done properly? It's not the concept of universal care, but "???" which concerns me.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
lol. sounds like a 10 billion dollar project with 20 different consulting firms, that will be overbudget and overdue by 50 years. Although if you got Kaiser Permanante, you got centralized records just like you're asking for.

Maybe we should have KP take over ^_^ They are amazingly efficient in my experience.

We need it in any event. We already have the capability. Those naughty boys at the NSA working with DARPA could do this. Even if it did cost 10 billion the costs would be recouped in the first year.
 

doubledeluxe

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2014
1,074
1
0
Yeah. On my phone so didn't quote.

Currently you can't get a prescription with refills. You're suggesting same thing.
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Anyone who believes that somehow everything will magically be better by being when government is the only insurer has never actually dealt with government funding agencies.

I've been in some meetings lately where Medicaid billing is the primary topic, and the complexity of the rules would make most people's heads spin.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Yeah. On my phone so didn't quote.

Currently you can't get a prescription with refills. You're suggesting same thing.

Ahh, the Vicodin.

Medications which are on Schedule III or lower are generally refillable (5 times within 6 months of the date the prescription is ordered) with a few exceptions. Likewise Class II (class and schedule are the same thing and used interchangeably) narcotics are generally not refillable. Here's the thing though. When something becomes a C-II it rises to a whole new level of ordering, storage, record keeping, and general fussiness. Whole new areas of storage and security have to be implemented. One cannot just call and order these medications to dispense. A DEA-222 triplicate form must be delivered to the wholesaler who has just spent millions on making upgrades to be able to acquire, store and distribute the medications and then there's a whole host of stringent regulations and record keeping which again costs a fortune. The costs go up, the paperwork requirements and legal penalties drastically increase as well as the number of man hours all along the supply chain. What does this do to inconvenience a prescriber so he or she alters their habits? Nothing. Since the process others have to go through is virtually unknown to them they do what they always have done, but the time money and effort to do the same as they always have is vastly increased. We've seen roughly a 20% increase in acquisition costs all due to this. So why not just cut to the chase and forbid what this onerous legislation forced by ridiculous means to begin with? Because those who legislate haven't the slightest idea of what's going on, but they must be seen to be doing something. Form over substance. Now magnify the complexity of this relatively simple task by a vastly incalculable amount, then get Rick Perry and Charlie Rangel and their ilk to use reform as a club against each other and what do you have? It won't be Sweden I'll tell you that.
 

doubledeluxe

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2014
1,074
1
0
Poor leadership is a serious problem. I'll grant you that.

If we combine the ignorance thread, 2016 thread with voter participation numbers, this thread, and a few others we are really facing an uphill battle.

If we don't do something though the USA will continue to slide into a place we really don't want to be.
 

doubledeluxe

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2014
1,074
1
0
I guess its because I've seen what happens in countries with high levels of inequality, poverty, and a low quality of life.
Its not like you can just hut rick bottom and suddenly sprout wings. Are we hoping that we'll hut rock bottom and Germany will come here and implement the Marshall plan 2.0?
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
Poor leadership is a serious problem. I'll grant you that.

If we combine the ignorance thread, 2016 thread with voter participation numbers, this thread, and a few others we are really facing an uphill battle.

If we don't do something though the USA will continue to slide into a place we really don't want to be.

I've proposed a solution, or at least a means to a proper one in the past, but it requires thinking outside the lines and very few people are willing to do that.

The Constitution requires that Congress pass legislation, however it does not require that it be the sole means by which legislation and regulation are crafted. As I'm sure you realize special interests have long provided language which when implemented is guaranteed to give a desired result. Suppose we do something similar but not underhanded and have people who actually have the time, knowledge and expertise to create a unified, cohesive and intelligent system with the citizens health and wellbeing coming before political concerns? I don't mean the traditional conservative approach of advisement to politicians who then do whatever their personal and political goals require, but a cold objective approach to a replacement with minimal disruption. Something which is robust yet adaptable, a mechanism of accountability and continual improvement again controlled by non-politicians, but yes ultimately accountable to the people for performance.

Keep the pols and the parties as far away from good medicine as can be. No secret meetings. No "you have to enact it to see what happens". Pilots and real world testing, not some claim of superiority, but real world results with informed improvements enacted prudently.

Or would rather have the Republicans and Democrats decide your fate?

What seems best to you?

I think you ought to understand something about the health care system. There is no health care system. Instead there are lots of disconnected fragments which are "the system". That's one very important thing a unified and universally accessible database would do. Let me give you a very real and common example how this would provide material benefit.

A significant number of people are shockingly ignorant of what medications they take and why they are taking them. So someone goes to their primary provider and gets a prescription for a serious condition. Then they travel to Florida for the winter and they have a new problem or a worsening of some existing ailment. They then go into a completely different system and not knowing all that much forget something vital. That means treatment which is not optimal, is redundant, or outright bad happens due to ignorance of the complete medical history. This happens all the time. Adverse results result in expensive tests and diagnosis to reinvent the wheel, consuming much time and money. All The Time.

So... We get the NSA/DARPA to create a private net, $$$ I know, not some hack who's brother inlaw was owed a favor and got a contract, and provide layers of access appropriate to the need of the patient. Multiple biometric inputs for security or whatever is judged appropriate by the experts.

Once an established system was in place I would know what you could and could not take medication wise. Your cardiologist would know that you were receiving a treatment he wasn't aware of by an endocrinologist you forget to tell him about. The MRI you had a month ago would be accessible no matter where you were. I should think the advantages of such a system would be obvious even to non experts and it goes a whole lot further. Refinements in techniques, data mining for positive and negative outcomes, what treatment works for a particular patient population, indeed a way to understand how to improve care in ways not yet imagined all based on concrete data and analyzable by clinicians and scientists the world over. An honest to goodness system of communication and analysis and current medical history for everyone everywhere. The benefits would be incredible in every way imaginable.

So which of the wise ones in DC has proposed this?
 
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Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
I'm just glad that Tramadol take care of my pain, I get 5 refills within a 6 month period. Dr prescribed a larger amount to ensure I have enough should there be any shortage issues due to many moving from hydrocodone/oxycodone to Tramadol.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
I'm just glad that Tramadol take care of my pain, I get 5 refills within a 6 month period. Dr prescribed a larger amount to ensure I have enough should there be any shortage issues due to many moving from hydrocodone/oxycodone to Tramadol.

Nothing has changed in NY. I should say the state moved it to a C-II over a year ago but there wasn't the attendant change in regs like the Federal act did. For the first three or four months there was some movement away from hydrocodone, but we are where we were. The DEA simply does not have enough manpower to inspect every prescription and prescriber, not that they should.
 

Slew Foot

Lifer
Sep 22, 2005
12,379
96
86
Well it just has to be, right?

Healthcare is a fascinating topic. Virtually no understanding of the system, but they understand all anyway. Oh well, remember one of my old sayings, "No one knows you job better than someone who's never done it."

ive learned not to talk about healthcare on ATOT/PN since half of the liberals think that reading the comments section of a huffington post article makes them the worlds expert on the subject.
 
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