Update (04-19-10): Ordered Denon 1610

[kalrith]

Update (04-19-10): I ordered the Denon 1610. More details below.

Update (04-16-10): For $370 I could get a pair of ELT525 towers and an ELT525 center. Would these speakers totally blow my Polk R50 towers and CSi25 center out of the water? For the same price, it seems that I could make a much bigger difference in my HT system. The only negative I see is the 85dB efficiency.

I'm going to get a new receiver for my birthday. It needs to be "around $265." Here are the choices I've found so far (all prices are after cash back and shipping, and all products are refurbs):

$306 - Denon 1610 (75W x 5) - New
$390 - Denon 790/1910 (90W x 7) - New
$470 - Onkyo 707 (100W x 7) - Refurb​

My requirements are HDMI audio and Audyssey MultEQ, Dynamic Volume, and Dynamic EQ. All of these receivers have that. The one stand-out feature is pre-outs on the Onkyo 707, but it's also a stand-out in price.

I currently have a budget Polk setup and would like to upgrade it, but it'll probably be another year or two before that happens. It would be nice to not have to limit my upgrade choices by having a lack of power, but I also don't want to err on the side of spending the same ($440) on a receiver that I spent on my speakers. That's a question I'll have to answer for myself, but I'd like some input on it.

Did I miss any receivers? What do you guys think of the ones I mentioned? I have a shelving unit that might make the 707 too hot:

It'll be closed off on top and bottom but open in the front and back. If heat isn't an issue, then I'm wondering if the 707 is really worth 50% more than the 707. The 707 seems to be the most future proof with 6 HDMI inputs and pre-outs. However, I really shouldn't be spending more than $265, so $440 is REALLY pushing it.

Edit: Read more on the 2308 and found that it doesn't have Dynamic Volume or Dynamic EQ even though Audyssey's website says it does.

 

[vi edit]

What about the RC-160? It's essentially an Onkyo 607. I think accessories for less has it for under $300.

I'm having a hard time figuring out what to do right now myself. I'm budgeting around $600 for my own upgrade but not sure if I want to grab a refurb RC-180 for that price now or wait and see how the new Onkyo lineups look.

Word on the street is that the new 608 is basically a detuned 707 with HDMI 1.4 added and less the pre-outs. I've seen street prices going for $440 at J&R for people on pre-order.

 

[kalrith]

Accessories4less has free shipping on the 607, so it winds up being $3 more than the 160 ($320 shipped). The main negative I see with the 607 is 2EQ instead of MultEQ. Is there anything that makes the 607 better than the 1910? At the same price and better Audyssey correction (MultEQ), the Denon 790 looks like the better deal. I agree that the 607 should be another consideration for me.

The 608 looks nice, but it's still got Audyssey 2EQ instead of MultEQ.

 

[PM650]

If there's only going to be a few inches of space above the receiver and you're not using external amps, I wouldn't even be considering an onkyo, myself. They run very warm, if not hot, at idle.

The main differences between the denons listed are 1080p upscaling/extra inputs/7.1 amplification - you'll have to decide whether you need any of these features (comparison).

Small note on denons: AVR-x88 & AVR-xx08 models came out in 2007, which is why they lack some newer audyssey features. They'll certainly be introducing the x91 & xx11 models later this year.

 

[s44]

The real question, I think, is how big is your space, and how loud would you like to have it?

If you are or will not-too-long-from-now be in a space where you want a lot of wattage and to hit reference+, the upgrade path the 707 gives you is huge. If you're planning to stay in restricted spaces, the 60+wpc (guessing) a decent AVR offers should be fine. (And I doubt the 1910 actually has more power per channel... Just two more of them.) I don't think you should worry about external factors like spending more on an AVR than your speakers though.

If the Onkyo's cooling gets to be an issue, just stick a 120mm fan (w/AC adapter) on top of it.

 

[Deleted member 4644]

I hate you. I didnt realize what audyssey was until just now. God Damn my wallet.

 

[kalrith]

The real question, I think, is how big is your space, and how loud would you like to have it?

The room is 17' x 17'. The back of it, which is the opposite wall from the speakers, is a half wall that opens up into another large room. That opening and the doorway in that corner are the only openings in the room. My HT system will be in this room for the foreseeable future (at least 5 years). Here are some pictures:

My wife doesn't let me turn it up too loud, which is where I think Dynamic EQ will help a lot. However, when she's not around, I turn it up as loud as I can without the speakers distorting. It's not ear-damaging loud (I hope), but it's loud enough for my ears to ring afterwards. I don't have a decibel meter, so I can't offer an objective measurement of the volume.

If the Onkyo's cooling gets to be an issue, just stick a 120mm fan (w/AC adapter) on top of it.

I thought about doing that. It would be pretty simple to construct a cheap cooling system for my shelving system that would only run while the receiver's on. I've read of some people using the Antec AV cooler, but I don't want to spend $70 on something like that when I can get some 120mm fans for $5 a piece.

So, if I understand correctly, the 75wpc Denon 1610 should be all I need for a normal setup and normal listening levels, but if I want more volume or to fill a larger space (does my room count as a larger space), then something like the 707 w/ its pre-outs would offer me more volume and the ability to use less efficient speakers down the road (since they'd need more power).

One thing I failed to mention is my current receiver. I have a Panasonic XR55S with 100wpc. It has a digital amp, so I'm not sure how that compares to the receivers in the OP. If it is comparable, then I would think it wise to not step down in power, right?

Thanks again for the good feedback, and hopefully it keeps coming. My birthday is the 23rd, so I'm hoping to have a new receiver on my doorstep by then .

Edit: And I don't really care about upscaling or extra inputs. I do like the ability to convert analog to digital and send everything through a single HDMI cable to the TV.

 

[s44]

For what it's worth, Sound and Vision bench-tested the sibling of your Panny (the XR70, also rated at 100wpc) for 77+W all channels driven (at 1khz). Not bad, but I think the 707 should be around there even without an amp. Not sure what the low-end Denons bench tested to.

edit: note that the XR70 *did* hit 100wpc at 6 ohms, which is what Panny specced it at, but you have to compare apples to apples here since most test setups use 8 ohms

 

[ScoobMaster]

I just grabbed a refurbished Harman Kardon AVR 2600 for $377 ($405 shipped) from Harman Kardon's factory eBay store.

A few hours later I discovered that a NEW one can be purchased from electronics-expo.com for $449 by using the coupon code "EMPLOYEE410". I probably would have done that if I had not already won the ebay auction. Either way you get a 2 year warranty (H/K treats the warranty their factory refurbs directly purchased the same as new).

Just putting it out there as an option for you as it is near the upper end of your budget and from what I have researched (and HOPE is true since I just bought one) is a darn nice receiver.

Now I am on a quest for speakers...

 

[kalrith]

Thanks for the recommendation, but I really want a receiver with Audyssey MultEQ, Dynamic Volume, and Dynamic EQ. I know the 2600 has its own form of auto-room correction, but those seem to be hit and miss (some are great and some suck). MultEQ is esteemed as being great, so that's an absolute requirement for me.

I really don't see any other good options in my price range with the 3 afore-mentioned Audyssey technologies and HDMI audio. The Marantz 5004 is $570 shipped, and that's their cheapest offering with the Audyssey technologies. The Denon 2310 is $463, and I see no reason to choose that over the Onkyo 707.

BTW, if you go to this link, you can do a search based on the different Audyssey technologies. I personally click MultEQ XT, MultEQ, Dynamic Volume, and Dynamic EQ.

 

[kalrith]

Would a notebook cooler like this one work to cool down the 707? I was thinking I could place it upside down on top of the receiver. If it would work, I'd just have to come up with some way to have it only turn on when the receiver is on.

 

[vshah]

one advantage of getting one with preouts is in the future if you need more power, you could use the receiver as a pre and just get an amp to handle your power needs. i'm partial to denon, but in this case i'd go for the onkyo. actually I would probably go for the 2310 just because i'm familiar with denons.

btw, i have the 1610 powering cheap speakers from the speaker company (P5 bookshelves all around, whatever the matching center is...5.25 drivers all around). I think they're around 86db sensitivity. i have to turn it up soemtimes but overall i'm happy with it. i paid ~375 new so i'd say its a good option if you want to keep the budget down.

 

[kalrith]

one advantage of getting one with preouts is in the future if you need more power, you could use the receiver as a pre and just get an amp to handle your power needs. i'm partial to denon, but in this case i'd go for the onkyo. actually I would probably go for the 2310 just because i'm familiar with denons.

btw, i have the 1610 powering cheap speakers from the speaker company (P5 bookshelves all around, whatever the matching center is...5.25 drivers all around). I think they're around 86db sensitivity. i have to turn it up to -10db sometimes to get it loud in my 12x15 room.

That's what I'm thinking. Spending a little more now will give me a good upgrade path so that I don't have to turn around and upgrade my receiver again if I need extra power. There's also the possibility of being disappointed by the power output of the 1610 or even 1910 compared to my current receiver.

I do like the 2310, but I hate to spend more on that than the 707 when the 2310 doesn't have pre-outs, making a possible power upgrade in the future more expensive. The least-expensive Denon I can find with all my requirements plus pre-outs is the 2809 for $750 .

 

[vshah]

how big is your room?

 

[kalrith]

17' x 17' with a half opening in the back. There are some pictures and more info in post #7 of this thread. You having the 1610 on -10db has me somewhat concerned. I usually have mine on -40db and turning it up to -25db makes it very loud, about as loud as I would want it.

 

[BigSmooth]

Slightly off topic, but I'm not quite following Audyssey's website - what exactly is "filter resolution" that they refer to in comparing MultEQ to 2EQ? I had been thinking about the 608 myself - people on Slickdeals have reported ordering it for less than $400.

 

[vi edit]

I wouldn't get really wrapped up in power ratings..entirely. The real world difference between 90w and 135w is very, very small. Instead of upgrading power you are just as well off upgrading to a more efficient speaker. Going from an 87db efficient speaker to a 90db one is like going from a 100w per channel receiver to a 200w per channel one.

 

[kalrith]

I wouldn't get really wrapped up in power ratings..entirely. The real world difference between 90w and 135w is very, very small. Instead of upgrading power you are just as well off upgrading to a more efficient speaker. Going from an 87db efficient speaker to a 90db one is like going from a 100w per channel receiver to a 200w per channel one.

How far can I go with that line of thinking? Would 75W be enough, or would there be a noticeable difference between that and 90-100W? I do plan to upgrade my speakers sometime in the future and can choose efficient ones. My current Polks have a 90 dB efficiency. I'm not sure how that compares with other speakers.

 

[vi edit]

It takes a doubling in power to go up 3db in volume. If you can hear 1.5db's difference between 75w and 110w then you have some pretty damn good ears.

I'd look more at the measured power rather than claims. And if you are *really* concerned about power, then only run 5 channels. Many receivers fall off a cliff in supplied power per channel when you move to 7 channels.

 

[unfalliblekrutch]

3dB change is barely perceivable, generally. And it takes a doubling of power to do that. It takes 10x power to double the perceived volume. So if you have a 10W receiver, it is about half as loud as a 100W, which is half as loud as a 1000W (assuming all else is equal).

My klipsch synergy speakers' rated efficiency is 94dB...that's pretty high though. Most speakers will be less efficient than that

 

[kalrith]

It takes a doubling in power to go up 3db in volume. If you can hear 1.5db's difference between 75w and 110w then you have some pretty damn good ears.

I'd look more at the measured power rather than claims. And if you are *really* concerned about power, then only run 5 channels. Many receivers fall off a cliff in supplied power per channel when you move to 7 channels.

Well, that's very interesting. I don't have a good area for 7 channels, so I'd just stick with 5 for ease of setup, so that's a total non-issue. I looked up some Denon reviews at Sound and Vision, and all of them had the measured power with 5 channels within 5% of Denon's claim. These were for 7.1 receivers running 5 channels, so I'm not sure if that would apply to the 5.1 1610 running 5 channels.

I'm somewhat wary of the 3mo warranty on the ecost refurbs. Electronics-expo is having a good receiver sale right now, and I can get a new 1610 for $306 shipped. If the power isn't going to be such an issue, then I might just go with that. I'm going to try to find some measured power readings from the 1610 first though.

 

[vi edit]

I wouldn't buy from e-cost. There was a thread over at Slickdeals and I guess they are horrible to deal with on the denon refurbs.

If you can wait around a little bit longer I think you'll see the retail prices really drop on the 707. They had sale prices of around $475 at Christmas. As Onkyo brings the 708 (or whatever the number is) out later this summer you should see retail prices get to the $450 mark I would guess. That will carry the full retail warranty which I think is 2 years.

 

[vshah]

your speakers are quite a bit more efficient than mine. i don't think the 1610 would be a problem in your room unless you like listening to reference + levels. honestly dynamic volume and EQ make a small difference, but not nearly as much as multEQ. i would just get your favorite http://www.dakmart.com/Audio-Home-A...HDMI-1.3A-RECEIVER-AUTH-DLR/product_info.html

Slightly off topic, but I'm not quite following Audyssey's website - what exactly is "filter resolution" that they refer to in comparing MultEQ to 2EQ? I had been thinking about the 608 myself - people on Slickdeals have reported ordering it for less than $400.

filter resolution is the number of EQ adjustments Audyssey can make in a certain frequency range. For example, a receiver that can adjust 1000 "zones" from 20hz to 20khz will correct sound more accurately than one that can only correct 100. For this reason, there are Audyssey processors specifically for bass applications that can adjust ~1000 times in the low bass frequencies.

 

[kalrith]

I wouldn't buy from e-cost. There was a thread over at Slickdeals and I guess they are horrible to deal with on the denon refurbs.

If you can wait around a little bit longer I think you'll see the retail prices really drop on the 707. They had sale prices of around $475 at Christmas. As Onkyo brings the 708 (or whatever the number is) out later this summer you should see retail prices get to the $450 mark I would guess. That will carry the full retail warranty which I think is 2 years.

Yeah, after reading more about it (and their reseller rating), I won't be buying anything from Ecost. The cheapest refurb 1610 from a reputable seller with a 1yr warranty is only $20 cheaper than a new one from Electronics Expo, and it might be even cheaper if Bing CB works with the coupon code even though it's not supposed to. Therefore, I updated the OP to reflect the prices of a new 1610 and 1910, but I didn't include the questionable Bing CB.

This is for my birthday next Friday, so I can't really hold off on this. If I do, then I'll wind up not getting one at all . The Onkyo refurb doesn't bother me, because Accessories4Less seems to be a reputable company, and it comes with the 1yr warranty. My reasons against (possibly) ordering the 707 compared to the 1610 are excessive heat, possibly requiring me to provide extra cooling, and spending $140 more if I won't notice any difference.

I know there are a lot of advantages of the 707 over the 1610, but the only two that matter to me are 100W compared to 75W and the pre-outs. If the extra power won't make much of a difference, then I'm probably better off saving the money.

I'm still indecisive on this decision, but I'm going to try my best to order a receiver today (and definitely by Sunday at the latest).

 

[vshah]

perhaps you could pick up a 1610/590 from a store to try it out?