*Update* 6-way nForce2 Roundup Online

[ndee]

What is 2 Phase or 3 Phase power?

 

[SFang]

I hope they do the review of all motherboards based on XP 2400+, not above, since that is the one most of us can get now, also since it is in my rigs too.

 

[Palek]

Originally posted by: AbRASiON
Like Tomshardware's roundup over a week ago?????

Well, okay, so Tom's was the first out with a round-up of three boards. Just by the way, that review was not much more informative than the one on Digit-Life. Tom's Hardware has had its fair share of lazy reviews in the past, so I tend not to read them much anymore. I did actually happen to read this one, but obviously it did not leave a big impression because I totally forgot about it.

I think it's only fair that I expect information from a review that I cannot look up on the web for myself. Benchmarks are one thing, but there are a dozen other aspects to consider as well, such as stability, compatibility and build quality. It is becoming harder to find reviews discussing these issues in great detail these days.

 

[Odeen]

Not if we use an external decoder, which I intend to do.

Again, the problem is possible encoding issues, the "completeness" of the encoding algorithm (i.e. encoding special EAX effects). I was not entirely aware of the problems the original MCP had, but it didn't sound like a fully functional solution at this point.

Update: Looks like, at least on the original APU, the DD encoder was limited to JUST the DS3D. No EAX or anything. For that, you have to go analog.

Plus not everyone wants/can afford an outboard receiver, some just have their 2-channel or 4-channel speakers that they want to game on and listen to music to. You don't need DD for most music listening.

I doubt any site would do that, specially since audio quality can't be easily compared unlike a benchmark.
(and I do agree that would be a good test)[

Actually, it's fairly straightforward. There is equipment out there to measure frequency response, distortion, stereo separation, and noise. Those figures I'd be curious about (i.e. - just how much the ALC650 sucks as an ADC/DAC). If Asus or someone put a better quality codec chip (Soundmax, perhaps, or a Crystal Semiconductor setup, since it works so well for the GTXP and the TBSC) on their board, It'd take top priority in my list of boards to buy.

The CPU utilization of the AC'97 vs. Soundstorm vs. Audigy or TBSC is measured easily... Just benchmark Quake with sound off, and benchmark it with 3d sound turned up to the most features enabled on the different audio solutions.

3) ANY problems with using DD encoding for 3d games. According to a friend of mine who bought the Asus A7N266-C (Nforce 415D chipset, no video but first-generation APU), he had some issues with EAX and DS3D not encoding correctly to his DD/DTS speaker system. Please test the compatibility of the new APU with 3d sound.

I'd blame the game / drivers.[/quote]

Right. Again, EAX is not supported for DD encoding.


Independent point:
Last time I set up motherboards with AC '97 sound, I had to go to Realtek's website to download AC'97 drivers.
The chips onboard were ALC-200 and ALC-650 (2-channel and 6-channel respectively). If AC'97 is integrated into the southbridge, why do I need Realtek drivers for Intel-based boards, whereas I don't for nForce2-based boards?

 

[Palek]

Last time I set up motherboards with AC '97 sound, I had to go to Realtek's website to download AC'97 drivers. The chips onboard were ALC-200 and ALC-650 (2-channel and 6-channel respectively). If AC'97 is integrated into the southbridge, why do I need Realtek drivers for Intel-based boards, whereas I don't for nForce2-based boards?

I quoted the hexus.net review before with regard to this very issue.

Kind of difficult to see from the above picture due to their tiny size, 3 Realtek physical interfaces sit around the 8x AGP port. The ALC650 (6-channel sound, bottom left), RTL8201B (10/100 LAN, middle), and RTL8801B (Firewire, right). Why are these here when we have all of these features integrated from the MCP-T ? The reason lies in the fact that the NVIDIA features need physical routing to the ports that they work from. What that means is that no Realtek chips will show up in your device manager - they're just there to ensure that the features are routed properly to the headers and backplane.

I am not sure but what this could mean is that the Realtek chip is hard-wired to simply pass the output of the APU on to the physical connections on the I/O panel. The system does not need to control it in any way. I think that is what the article is saying. But again, I could be wrong.

 

[scudiac]

Originally posted by: kgraeme

You and me both. I've gone Intel for my systems for now. Sure the integrated video isn't as good, but none of the people I build for are gaming anyway.

Yeah, I have about three orders for non gaming systems to build for Christmas. Nforce2 igp would have been a great solution. I'm still going with nforce2 boards, just adding radeon 9000's instead.


It's Wednesday already, I'm just curious as what anandtech thinks "early next week" means? Before or after the middle of the week?

 

[j@cko]

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by: AbRASiON
Yeah I must say I'm *REALLY* looking forward to this review ASAP - an ETA would be really nice!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Early next week.

Right.... Wednesday = Early?....

 

[Live]

2 Phase or 3 Phase power is not an issue really. 2 Phase with good parts can be much better then 3 phase with crappy parts. Bad implementation of 2 Phase with good parts can lead to better results with 3 phase with crappy parts. The real difference is in the parts used and the implementation.

In theory 3 phase is better all other equal. But since implementation of 3 phase is harder and 3 phase is more expensive cutting cost often leads to 3 cheaper parts being used.

 

[kadajawi]

hmm, I don't need all the digital stuff and suround etc. All I need is a perfect clear punchy analog output for my headphones (which are pretty good... when connected to something with a good output).
Ok, there is equipment to test the frequency curve of the analog output, and the noise, but then I don't think it is very cheap. Maybe AnandTech could team up with some HiFi-site or magazine who have the right equipment and knowledge to test. So AnandTech might do a big round-up including tons of soundcards between low-end and high-end, different on-board solutions etc.

Hmpf...

The only vague issue connected with the nForce is sound in headphones. Since a buffering OA is lacking the codec's output stage gets overloaded when 32Ohm headphones are connected. Many sound cards lacks for such peculiarity as they have a quite powerful OA between the codec and the connector. AC'97 codecs from Analog Devices and C-Media CMI8738 audio chip also have internal adaptation to headphones.

(digit-life)

 

[ndee]

ok, I still don't get what 2 phase and 3 phase power is...

 

[Dbird]

Here is a quick definition of three phase power I found during a quick search

"In a nutshell, the power to the cpu is split into three separate circuits, with each handling a third of the load. In doing this, less stress is placed on the individual components in each circuit, and also less heat is generated. Also, each circuit has a little more headroom for increased voltages than would a single line, meaning power hungry CPU's get a cleaner more stable supply."


Generally 3 phase power boards have been a little better at overclocking, but the main advantage is that they often have a longer life (especially when upping voltages and such). While I agree that implementing 3 phase power with crappy components would take away any advantage it has, I don't feel that Abit or Epox are the type of manufacturers that would use lower quality parts (especially with their committment to the overclocking market). Perhaps if you were comparing a cheap Biostar board that touted 3 phase to the Asus board your point would be justified. Asus is a little less geared to OCers and was the first out the gate, this is probably why 3 phase power was not implemented.

With all of the Nforce2 boards being so similar...I think that choosing a board that allows a higher headroom for increased voltages and that possibly supplies cleaner power to the CPU has to be one of the deciding factors.

 

[ndee]

Originally posted by: Dbird
Here is a quick definition of three phase power I found during a quick search

"In a nutshell, the power to the cpu is split into three separate circuits, with each handling a third of the load. In doing this, less stress is placed on the individual components in each circuit, and also less heat is generated. Also, each circuit has a little more headroom for increased voltages than would a single line, meaning power hungry CPU's get a cleaner more stable supply."


Generally 3 phase power boards have been a little better at overclocking, but the main advantage is that they often have a longer life (especially when upping voltages and such). While I agree that implementing 3 phase power with crappy components would take away any advantage it has, I don't feel that Abit or Epox are the type of manufacturers that would use lower quality parts (especially with their committment to the overclocking market). Perhaps if you were comparing a cheap Biostar board that touted 3 phase to the Asus board your point would be justified. Asus is a little less geared to OCers and was the first out the gate, this is probably why 3 phase power was not implemented.

With all of the Nforce2 boards being so similar...I think that choosing a board that allows a higher headroom for increased voltages and that possibly supplies cleaner power to the CPU has to be one of the deciding factors.

Cool, thanks, I was just too lazy to google it Well I gonna go the Asus route, the deluxe model really has some nice features.

 

[webfoot]

Mr Lieb, Would you please post an update on the ETA of your review. ........ Thank You

 

[ndee]

Originally posted by: webfoot
Mr Lieb, Would you please post an update on the ETA of your review. ........ Thank You

Well if it's really a high-quality review, then I have no problem with waiting. You guys have to consider most of them do it in there free-time.

 

[romanji]

On nforcershq.com Evan said "It'll be up today, don't worry". When today is anyone's guess.

 

[AbRASiON]

Again, the problem is possible encoding issues, the "completeness" of the encoding algorithm (i.e. encoding special EAX effects). I was not entirely aware of the problems the original MCP had, but it didn't sound like a fully functional solution at this point.

Update: Looks like, at least on the original APU, the DD encoder was limited to JUST the DS3D. No EAX or anything. For that, you have to go analog.

Err, who gives a DAMN about EAX when you have DD quality sound anyhow?!?!?!

Plus not everyone wants/can afford an outboard receiver, some just have their 2-channel or 4-channel speakers that they want to game on and listen to music to. You don't need DD for most music listening.

Well we've covered that anyhow, the external chips to translate the signal into analog (realtek chips) seem to be just fine quality wise, so digital or analog link = who cares.

Actually, it's fairly straightforward. There is equipment out there to measure frequency response, distortion, stereo separation, and noise. Those figures I'd be curious about (i.e. - just how much the ALC650 sucks as an ADC/DAC). If Asus or someone put a better quality codec chip (Soundmax, perhaps, or a Crystal Semiconductor setup, since it works so well for the GTXP and the TBSC) on their board, It'd take top priority in my list of boards to buy.

None the less, using the digital signal avoids this problem - which many of us would be doing - sure it might change your preference in boards, but as with most aspects of computers unfortunately - you never ever find "the perfect board" - there's always at least 1 or 2 things you'd love differently about it.

The CPU utilization of the AC'97 vs. Soundstorm vs. Audigy or TBSC is measured easily... Just benchmark Quake with sound off, and benchmark it with 3d sound turned up to the most features enabled on the different audio solutions.

Couldn't care less about cpu utilisation, as long as it's under 10% no problems - unlike the original A3D cards (33% on a Celeron 450 in half life, no thanks)

Right. Again, EAX is not supported for DD encoding.

Again, I couldn't care less about EAX, it does nothing for me, I want posititional sound, Idon't care for crappy effects being performed on my audio stream, I'll use my receiver for any effects I need.

Independent point:
Last time I set up motherboards with AC '97 sound, I had to go to Realtek's website to download AC'97 drivers.
The chips onboard were ALC-200 and ALC-650 (2-channel and 6-channel respectively). If AC'97 is integrated into the southbridge, why do I need Realtek drivers for Intel-based boards, whereas I don't for nForce2-based boards?

No idea,...... intel sucks!

 

[Adul]

anand is reviewing it right now, so evan's part is done, we jut have to wait for anand to send it off.

 

[EglsFly]

Early next week.

Still waiting on that review...

 

[kadajawi]

yay, great news How long will Anand take? And where do you know from?

 

[AbRASiON]

Originally posted by: kadajawi
yay, great news How long will Anand take? And where do you know from?

It will be early NEXT week didn't you hear?

 

[mechBgon]

Originally posted by: Evan Lieb
Oh yeah, when I'm done with these boards, maybe I'll let some of you fool around with them.

/me raises paw... if I had a dollar for every hour I've spent making avatars for the Forums, I could probably buy an nF2 board...

 

[j@cko]

Anand is probably busying at his HW

 

[kadajawi]

what? 5 more days to read the review and post it?

 

[tjaisv]

all good things come to those who wait

 

[davidos]

Just tell me which one to get and I'll go away................