Update for Trump voters by Robert Reich (former Secretary of Labor)

[Moonbeam]

The joke's on us, there never was a 'great america'. The American Dream was an ideal invented by those in power to convince those not in power to continue working themselves to the bone. They were given just enough of a leash to think they could be whatever they wanted before being ground under the wheel of progress. We're reaping what we sowed.

No, there was a time when war united every American and every American could feel he or she was needed. Now the country is full of worthless others trying to eat my lunch. You couldn't even see that. You had to challenge what I said because you feel ground under. You are probably just a child who never met a great American. Well how do you do. Not too good, I guess. You just keep up that war you have with the other and pay no attention to that chip you carry around on your shoulder for the rich who tricked you. Never look beyond the simple facts of evil to what produced it, the hate and fear caused by competition. Do you suffer? Are you sad? Have you been beaten? Have you done anything that mends? Do you understand that in the world of competition if I am to win you must lose?

 

[sdifox]

If facts were important, Trump would not have won the nomination.

 

[fskimospy]

More than killing thousands through conventional means? Not really. It gets to a point where the methods don't mean much anymore.

Not to Godwin this, but would you *really* think less of Hitler if he had ordered 60 random Jews skinned alive in front of their families? Would it really matter anymore?

I for one have never understood why chemical weapons are special 'weapons of mass destruction' like nukes and biological weapons. Nuclear weapons are clearly on their own level, easy. Biological weapons have the potential to spread out of control and cause all sorts of indiscriminate death too. I get that. Chemical weapons though? Not really. They can't self-replicate and spread like biological weapons and they don't have the massive destructive capacity of nukes. I don't see why killing 60 people with gas is substantially worse than blowing 60 people up with a bomb.

Actually that's not true, I do understand why but it's for totally different reasons. Chemical weapons are cheap and can force an otherwise vastly superior military force into donning cumbersome MOPP gear that seriously degrades their ability to function. Their playfield-leveling (somewhat) ability is probably the primary reason they are viewed this way.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

No, there was a time when war united every American and every American could feel he or she was needed. Now the country is full of worthless others trying to eat my lunch. You couldn't even see that. You had to challenge what I said because you feel ground under. You are probably just a child who never met a great American. Well how do you do. Not too good, I guess. You just keep up that war you have with the other and pay no attention to that chip you carry around on your shoulder for the rich who tricked you. Never look beyond the simple facts of evil to what produced it, the hate and fear caused by competition. Do you suffer? Are you sad? Have you been beaten? Have you done anything that mends? Do you understand that in the world of competition if I am to win you must lose?

To be clear, fear for one's life united every American, and has always done so. America wouldn't have gotten the support for world war if it wasn't for the american propaganda machine being in full swing. Now, to clarify, it's a damned good thing that it did because as much as I love German food, I'm not fond of slavery. Just make sure you understand that the motivations for humans working together is RARELY for the common good, it's almost exclusively for the common self.

I've drug myself up from my bootstraps the same as many people have had to do, and if America is great for a reason, it's because for the most part people stay out of your way when you try to do that, instead of clubbing you over the head and taking what's yours (that only happens after you make your first million). I can also acknowledge though that the dream of the white picket fence'd family comes at a cost to someone, whether it be within our country or without, and that those who created that image had the most to gain.

Finally, great Americans don't refer to themselves as such. If I were pressed to state the American virtue which is dead and buried, it would be humility.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I for one have never understood why chemical weapons are special 'weapons of mass destruction' like nukes and biological weapons. Nuclear weapons are clearly on their own level, easy. Biological weapons have the potential to spread out of control and cause all sorts of indiscriminate death too. I get that. Chemical weapons though? Not really. I don't see why killing 60 people with gas is substantially worse than blowing 60 people up with a bomb.

Actually that's not true, I do understand why but it's for totally different reasons. Chemical weapons are cheap and can force an otherwise vastly superior military force into donning cumbersome MOPP gear that seriously degrades their ability to function. Their playfield-leveling (somewhat) ability is probably the primary reason they are viewed this way.

Cheap, and the ability to kill extremely large numbers of people in very horrific ways.. it's more of a humane thing than anything else really. Learned a lot about chemical weapons in the mil, and there's some that are truly horrible, skin melting off, blindness on contact, instant skin blistering, shit like that. It's in a different class from a bullet to the X or losing a leg to an explosion.

 

[fskimospy]

Cheap, and the ability to kill extremely large numbers of people in very horrific ways.. it's more of a humane thing than anything else really. Learned a lot about chemical weapons in the mil, and there's some that are truly horrible, skin melting off, blindness on contact, instant skin blistering, shit like that. It's in a different class from a bullet to the X or losing a leg to an explosion.

Is it really that different though? I haven't seen evidence that indicates that chemical weapons are actually superior to conventional explosives when it comes to killing people. They seem to be terror weapons and means by which to slow down more sophisticated armies.

I have no doubt that having my skin melt off from a chemical weapon would be unimaginably horrible (isn't that from The Rock though and not real?). Is it that much worse than it melting off from napalm? Is it that much worse than being blown in half by a bomb? It hardly seems to be a sufficient distinction for one to merit a war and the other to not.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Is it really that different though? I haven't seen evidence that indicates that chemical weapons are actually superior to conventional explosives when it comes to killing people. They seem to be terror weapons and means by which to slow down more sophisticated armies.

I have no doubt that having my skin melt off from a chemical weapon would be unimaginably horrible (isn't that from The Rock though and not real?). Is it that much worse than it melting off from napalm? Is it that much worse than being blown in half by a bomb? It hardly seems to be a sufficient distinction for one to merit a war and the other to not.

It was in the Rock, now that you think of it, but there are chemical weapons that are sufficiently capable. Napalm (usually) kills quicker, but it's also restricted from use (along with other incendiary weapons) as part of the CCW (UN convention on Certain Conventional Weapons), but yeah Napalm is really horrific shit too, which is why it was created as a deforesting agent, not as a 'kill people' agent.

Chemical weapons can be superior in certain instances, think mustard gas in trenches (heavier than air, pump it in and let it fill like water), but we've made great efforts to kill people as efficiently as possible within whatever bounds we're permitted.

Think of it like this, bullets and bombs are tactically efficient, Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical is strategically efficient, but usually much, much worse for humans (military and civilian) and the survivors of a given method. In addition, some chemical weapons can stick around for a LONG time, depending on how/where they were dispersed and in what they were absorbed.

Here's some light reading, if you're interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_chemical_warfare_agents

 

[Moonbeam]

To be clear, fear for one's life united every American, and has always done so. America wouldn't have gotten the support for world war if it wasn't for the american propaganda machine being in full swing. Now, to clarify, it's a damned good thing that it did because as much as I love German food, I'm not fond of slavery. Just make sure you understand that the motivations for humans working together is RARELY for the common good, it's almost exclusively for the common self.

I've drug myself up from my bootstraps the same as many people have had to do, and if America is great for a reason, it's because for the most part people stay out of your way when you try to do that, instead of clubbing you over the head and taking what's yours (that only happens after you make your first million). I can also acknowledge though that the dream of the white picket fence'd family comes at a cost to someone, whether it be within our country or without, and that those who created that image had the most to gain.

Finally, great Americans don't refer to themselves as such. If I were pressed to state the American virtue which is dead and buried, it would be humility.

You are trying to analyze and pick apart the American factual reality. I am saying that the white picket fence was once a real dream that people experienced in this country, a dream that more and more Americans have lost. You are trying to give reasons for that, and that it was actually a bad dream. What I am saying is that it was destined to die due to the nature of competition, All of the negatives you apply to it are also what competition brings. What is your solution, blaming what caused it or providing the knowledge that to fix it we need to cure system of competition, that it's competition that is the disease. You can't be humble and be competitive and my only point was that it used to be that America was much more full once of people who thought they had a shot at a pretty good life. Try to get the issue instead of pointing out the flaws in the dream. Fearful people are people who vote for people like Trump. If you don't want that to happen you have to find a way to reduce their fear. This is what the message needs to be in my opinion. Blame is a waste of time.

 

[Moonbeam]

Put more clearly perhaps is that it is useless to argue with people's feelings when they feel you are taking something they believe in away. Don't argue that making America great again is wrong because of this or that reason. Give people a reason not to cling to the past. Change the system in a way that reduces comparative anxiety. Offer a better vision and argue that it IS better. That's what Trump did but he will not deliver. He is what appeals to a competitive system. He calls himself a winner

 

[Indus]

You somehow think this even gets into the minds of Trump voters.

Here's some breaking news: NOTHING MATTERS TO A TRUMP VOTER other than FUCK THE OTHERS NOT LIKE THEM.

The lesson in this is, don't be a fucking retard like Hildabeast and look for Trump Voters. Look to the other voters who you fucking ignored and sat on the fence because they couldn't stand Hildabeast but would have voted happily for Bernie Sanders.

And as for all the socialist and other talk by Conservaterrorist... it doesn't matter if we win. Its all talk to try and get under someone's skin just like Hillary's emails.

 

[senseamp]

The article doesn't believe Gorsuch would go after Wade. The concern is how he would rule on state limitations which is legit. But if someone is likely to stand with the precedent then it seems that we're not looking at foaming at the mouth here. I'm not saying how he'll rule, but I am saying that how things shake out is unknown and yes this is legitimate concern. We'll see.

BTW, Gorsuch is supported for other things outside of abortion. He's not likely to be a gun right foe.

GOP has had SCOTUS majority pretty much since Roe. It still hasn't been repealed. It's like Obamacare. Something GOP can use for political gain, but are too scared to actually get done. Because if it becomes a live political issue in every election as opposed to never ending pandering votes that are tossed by the courts, it's a loser for the Republicans.
The meat and potatoes of conservative SCOTUS majority is all about turning this country's levers of power to the elites and the corporations. Social issues and gun rights are just a distraction to get people to vote against their self-interest repeatedly. How has the Republican base done since conservatives have been running SCOTUS? They got what they deserved.

 

[Bitek]

Why would they?

Who is reading such a list, and suddenly looks up shocked "OMG, you mean he didn't build a wall yet?"

Trump voters know exactly where Trump is. They are also smart enough to realize that 3 months into 2 4 year terms is NOT all she wrote. There is plenty of time left for those promises to be fulfilled.

When I'm wondering where Trump is, I check the golf course and Mar a Lago first.

 

[greatnoob]

It's really scary when people in this thread are discussing the most 'humane' killing weapon. I guess all of you, whether Republican or Democrat, have normalised war in your minds and lives.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

You are trying to analyze and pick apart the American factual reality. I am saying that the white picket fence was once a real dream that people experienced in this country, a dream that more and more Americans have lost. You are trying to give reasons for that, and that it was actually a bad dream. What I am saying is that it was destined to die due to the nature of competition, All of the negatives you apply to it are also what competition brings. What is your solution, blaming what caused it or providing the knowledge that to fix it we need to cure system of competition, that it's competition that is the disease. You can't be humble and be competitive and my only point was that it used to be that America was much more full once of people who thought they had a shot at a pretty good life. Try to get the issue instead of pointing out the flaws in the dream. Fearful people are people who vote for people like Trump. If you don't want that to happen you have to find a way to reduce their fear. This is what the message needs to be in my opinion. Blame is a waste of time.

I don't disagree with you in the notion that people should try to make things, and their own lives, a better place. That's a noble goal in fact, and possibly the original notion behind 'The American Dream'. My point was that this dream was a fallacy and unobtainable by everyone, although it encouraged everyone to work for it. The natural end result of that was for SOME to obtain it, while others to fall to the wayside, which I think is what you were getting at regarding competition.

As for the fix? No idea, probably some post-future dystopian governmental regulation on amount of permissible wealth, mandated distribution among the populace (along with population control), followed by the expansion of humanity into the galaxy, or something. Basically I don't think it's realistically obtainable, and I think we should embrace the idea that we may be able to generally raise everything for everyone, we may not ALL end up in the idealized setting. Once that happens, most people stop accepting the notion that something is going to be provided for them, and they try for it themselves. Those that don't try, tend to not care enough for it so it's moot for them anyhow.

It's really scary when people in this thread are discussing the most 'humane' killing weapon. I guess all of you, whether Republican or Democrat, have normalised war in your minds and lives.

War is normalized. It's the first thing we as mammals learned to do after eating and shitting, and we've gotten *very* efficient at it. Burying your head in the sand won't make it go away.

 

[greatnoob]

War is normalized. It's the first thing we as mammals learned to do after eating and shitting, and we've gotten *very* efficient at it. Burying your head in the sand won't make it go away.

Maybe for Americans but as somebody viewing this from outside the US, I find it disturbing that even the rational posters of this forum can discuss stuff like this so casually. "Burying your head in the sand" from what? War isn't a necessity for our survival and by framing it like the way you did you've also made it sound like as if it is a trivial issue as if to say you don't care about the lives of others.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Maybe for Americans but as somebody viewing this from outside the US, I find it disturbing that even the rational posters of this forum can discuss stuff like this so casually. "Burying your head in the sand" from what? War isn't a necessity for our survival and by framing it like the way you did you've also made it sound like as if it is a trivial issue as if to say you don't care about the lives of others.

Strictly speaking, I don't like derailing topics like this, but war IS necessary for our survival as a culture. We've seen time and time again throughout history that inevitably, someone somewhere will come to power that wishes to make what is ours his. That person will likely also wish to remove a record of our culture, to replace it with his own. It happened with Persia, it happened with Spain, it happened with the Crusades, it happened with Germany, and it's being attempted right now by specific factions of radical Islamists. Luckily the latter never got powerful enough to become a serious threat. But to think that conflict is unnecessary for survival is absolutely pie-in-the-sky, Star Trek Federation, good guys and love always wins mentality. As greater men than me have said, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Btw spoiler alert: individual lives aren't worth a great deal in the context of the greater whole, which is why we care more about 'atrocities' than lives lost, otherwise we'd spend more money/effort on preventing drunk driving than we did on derailing ISIS.

EDIT: Oh and by 'our' I meant that as a kind of royal our.. whatever your culture happens to be, someone will come for it.

 

[Lash444]

You might want to open a history book there greatnoob.

Not to say that Trump is right, but if it wasn't for the U.S., Europe would have to be spending more money on defense. Look at Russia in Crimea and the Ukraine. If the U.S. wasn't backing the U.N., what would deter Russia from pushing west, or China from pushing south?

If war is the furthest thing from your mind, its because some big brother somewhere is doing all that thinking for you.

 

[1sikbITCH]

It's almost like Trump is a serial liar or something.

I've been amazed at the extent to which partisanship and emotional investment has destroyed logical thinking on the part of his supporters. When he was working to pass that horrible health care bill that would have totally screwed over large numbers of his supporters when asked about it they said 'Oh I don't think he would really do that' while he was trying to do exactly that. They were only saved by Trump's incompetence and the intransigence of congressional Republicans.

There's also this story in the NYT:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/01/...trump-budget-cuts-but-still-loyalty.html?_r=0



So basically she's saying 'Trump is looking to take an action that will kill me. Yes, I might still vote for him in 2020 because the Democrats said mean things to me.' Amazing.

Addicts will chew their own legs off to get more drugs. It's the nature of things.

 

[WHAMPOM]

Trump supporters act like Donald is their child and will defend his bad acts to the end.

 

[Thump553]

You got any of that evidence stuff to back up the claims you are making?

I don't have a prornographic memory or anything, but as I recall Hillary wanted a no-fly zone over Syria and Trump said that was a bad idea. I don't remember Trump ever saying we should just let Assad gas people to death with zero repercussions.

Go back and read those Trump tweats-they are from the time period when Assad gassed 1400 to death. But now 70 are gassed and Trump is gung ho to throw away $100M in missiles on a publicity stunt.

 

[Moonbeam]

pparently his daughter was upset by the dead children.

 

[Sunburn74]

Cheap, and the ability to kill extremely large numbers of people in very horrific ways.. it's more of a humane thing than anything else really. Learned a lot about chemical weapons in the mil, and there's some that are truly horrible, skin melting off, blindness on contact, instant skin blistering, shit like that. It's in a different class from a bullet to the X or losing a leg to an explosion.

Umm...Explosions cause severe burns that lead to a slow and painful death. They also cause limbs to be blown off leading again to a slow death , shrapnel to perforate organs leading to a slow death, and thermal inhalation injury (your lungs melting from hot air) again leading to a slow and painful death. Oh and don't forget about being crushed by a building or other structure and dying from bleeding or starvation over the course of a few days. How humane!

If I had to choose between death by sarin or death by peripheral exposure to an explosion, sarin doesn't sound so bad.

 

[Moonbeam]

Maybe for Americans but as somebody viewing this from outside the US, I find it disturbing that even the rational posters of this forum can discuss stuff like this so casually. "Burying your head in the sand" from what? War isn't a necessity for our survival and by framing it like the way you did you've also made it sound like as if it is a trivial issue as if to say you don't care about the lives of others.

Thank you for being human. You must believe in fairies and moonbeams. Those who argue against you say you are brainwashed and don't understand reality not knowing they are the ones who have been most programmed. Self hate creates the projection that people are evil and is the cause of our fear of the other. Self hate is a disease we weren't born with. He who loves himself loves all life as we say of God who so loved us he gave his only son. It is this that you can feel and gives you wisdom, the secret that here I used a religious motif to express but is known in many other ways.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Umm...Explosions cause severe burns that lead to a slow and painful death. They also cause limbs to be blown off leading again to a slow death , shrapnel to perforate organs leading to a slow death, and thermal inhalation injury (your lungs melting from hot air) again leading to a slow and painful death. Oh and don't forget about being crushed by a building or other structure and dying from bleeding or starvation over the course of a few days. How humane!

If I had to choose between death by sarin or death by peripheral exposure to an explosion, sarin doesn't sound so bad.

Except the barring an extreme one, explosions do not do this to a hundred/thousand people at a time. The 'mass' part of mass destruction is due to its ability to affect a large number of people at once.

None of this is humane vs not humane, aka a 1 or a 0. It's a sliding scale, very heavily skewed toward inhumane.

 

[Sunburn74]

It's really scary when people in this thread are discussing the most 'humane' killing weapon. I guess all of you, whether Republican or Democrat, have normalised war in your minds and lives.

My point is I don't make any sort of difference between a dictator who uses chemical weapons to kill his people vs bombs and bullets. They are both horrible ways to die. Heck even if he killed them with chocolate and bunnies, I would be opposed. What kind of leader kills his people to preserve his own power?

Except the barring an extreme one, explosions do not do this to a hundred/thousand people at a time. The 'mass' part of mass destruction is due to its ability to affect a large number of people at once.

None of this is humane vs not humane, aka a 1 or a 0. It's a sliding scale, very heavily skewed toward inhumane.

Being crushed by a building and surrounding structures and complications from that is the primary way explosions in war kill civilians. In fact in the 1940s during the blitz, people tended to die a few days after a bomb explosion from muscle enzyme release after a crush injury to an arm or a leg from rubble. Crushing muscle releases muscle components that cause complete renal failure which then was untreatable as dialysis had not been invented. The actual number of people eviscerated or rapidly killed by the epicenter of an explosion is very few. The same was also true of the atomic bomb. A fraction died by being essentially vaporized and many many more from complications of exposure with thermal lung injury, radiation exposure injury and gut necrosis, and etc being major major sources of death.