** UPDATE** Official 2014-15 NFL 'U LOST Bro'-owl Thread** Pats are SB Champs!!

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RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
The problem with that excuse is that Rodgers wasn't throwing 4 INTs. The wind didn't effect him as much, it seems. Is he just immune to wind gusts, or did they only happen on Seattle drives?

He also was doing shorter passes which looked like they had MUCH more speed to them. He had 2 INTs, while Wilson was going for the longer plays like SEA always does...and only 2 of the INTs were due to Wilson, really. The other two went off an the WR and were caught.

I'm not excusing SEA for that game...at the last INT I decided I wanted SEA to lose just to make them realize how bad their play calls had been.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,810
29,564
146
The problem with that excuse is that Rodgers wasn't throwing 4 INTs. The wind didn't effect him as much, it seems. Is he just immune to wind gusts, or did they only happen on Seattle drives?

well, if you take out the tipped balls that lead to 2 of Wilson't INTs, then they were equal in interceptions.

Not to ignore how terrible Wilson looked overall, but still... :whiste:
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...pace-morgan-burnett-had-after-4th-quarter-int

ouch...
Peppers told Morgan Burnett to go down moses!

At the time I thought he could have gone all the way.


Peppers snatching defeat from the jaws of victory!

oh man

I'm sure he didn't expect McCarthy to do some awful play calling and ruin the game. It was the right move (giving yourself up) to not risk a turnover and let your offense do what it does best. Unfortunately, they couldn't do that last week. And, it isn't like he knew he had a pretty much open lane. He can't completely aware of all angles.
 

Mojoed

Diamond Member
Jul 20, 2004
4,473
1
81
I am still massively depressed about the Packers loss. Thinking about beating the wife and kids to alleviate the pain......lol

I feel your pain bshole. I'm still in shock even after two days.

I'm a big Pats fan, but have always liked the Packers. Rodgers is just completely amazing. What he did to the Pats in November was maddening. It was like watching a normal Pats game, but in reverse.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
I'm sure he didn't expect McCarthy to do some awful play calling and ruin the game. It was the right move (giving yourself up) to not risk a turnover and let your offense do what it does best. Unfortunately, they couldn't do that last week. And, it isn't like he knew he had a pretty much open lane. He can't completely aware of all angles.

It's not as if they were lighting the place up till that point.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
oh god, the gailey hire is now official.........................................................
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
It's not as if they were lighting the place up till that point.

True, but if I had to pick a QB to put points on the board, Rodgers would certainly be on the short list. But, they didn't do that. Sherman was hurt at that point, IIRC. Attack him!
 

BUTCH1

Lifer
Jul 15, 2000
20,433
1,769
126
That's why Brady chose not to chase a ref off the field a season or two ago for a "bad call", right?

Oh....wait....he *did* chase a ref off the field.

Oh wait, that was Gronk MUGGED in the Carolina game in the EZ, point was valid, a flag should have been thrown, that was Brady defending his player against the Ref's NOT Brady following a player after a game taunting him like a fucking 5 yr old (Sherman). punk's gonna be punk.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,177
5,641
146
You know what's funny? Both teams went on tears after they lost to the Chiefs. It's like losing to them was a wakeup call. WTF, we lost to Alex Smith? Nah, fuck that!

Most people don't watch many Seattle games so their sample size is very small. So it shouldn't surprise us how quickly this turnover angle ramped up. It is like the Division against Carolina (Wilson: on 3rd down alone 8/8, 199 yards, 3 TD, no INT) or how well he played all season. e.g. on Turnovers:

Seattle is one of the best at not turning over the ball. They were #3 in turnovers (14 total). Their 7 interceptions were also #3 behind Green Bay (Rodgers) and Kansas City (Smith). Wilson has been fantastic at controlling possession.

The usual rebuttal is Seattle doesn't throw much but the Interception Percentage is 1.5% which also ranks #4 in the league. The usual comeback is that is easy to do for a game manager. But look at the numbers compared to Alex Smith who is an excellent game manager:

Code:
Rank (INT) (INT%) (YPA) (TD) (TD%) (Passer Rating)
KC   (1)   (2)    (23)  (27) (24)  (13)
SEA  (3)   (4)    (7)   (22) (14)  (8)

They both have very few attempts: Wilson (SEA was #32 in attempts) and Smith (KC was #28). And both are Top5 when it comes to interceptions per attempt.

Yet playing equally "conservatively" Wilson is # 7 in yards per attempt (KC is a distant # 23) and Wilson was # 8 in passer rating and # 14 in passing TD rate. Considering the fact Seattle scores more than anyone on the ground and the state of their line, tight ends, and receivers those are very good numbers for a 3 year player.

And of course Wilson is also one of the league's best rushers. Wilson was # 16 in rushing yards, # 1 in average per carry, # 7 in carries over 20 yards, # 17 in TDs, # 16 in 1st downs and (iirc) # 2 behind Cam Newton ins 1st down rushing percentage.

For the next 2 weeks we will have to suffer the narrative:

Wilson is a game manager.

Wilson turns the ball over.

Overlooked in much of this is how windy and wet it was. I was out of power until 10:30am PST and I live 15 miles from the CLink. One need look no further than last years Division game against the Saints where the wind completely nullified both passing attacks.

The problem is that people use game managers a negative. Wilson is a game manager. But he's a good one (maybe even great). So were Troy Aikman, Brady, and Joe Montana. Elway didn't win a Super Bowl until he learned to be a game manager. Big Ben won his first ring by being one. Peyton's one ring was won by being a game manager. Being a game manager isn't a bad thing (and especially for a guy in just his 3rd season).

Wilson is a good game manager, and Smith is a mediocre one. In fact, the difference between him and Alex Smith is exactly the difference between mediocre QBs and great ones. Trying to explain why Smith sucks (no he's not the worst QB, but he sucks because he's a total waste of a team's time since he just doesn't have what it takes to make a team great), pretty much can be explained by saying compare him to Russell Wilson.

Only time will tell if Wilson can evolve beyond (or if the Seahawks can maintain a good enough team for Wilson to continue that role). Let's also remember most of the QBs that weren't termed "game managers" often had great receivers (where they both elevate each other's game). Hell plenty of the game managers did as well.

I saw an interesting comparison between Russell Wilson and Tom Brady on First Take this morning, that showed each of there stats for the first three seasons. The short of it is just how close they compare, Wilson has 9950 passing yard with 72 TD's and 26 INT's to Brady's 10227 / 69 / 38. These are regular season passing yards only, if you add in Wilson's other TD's and postseason stats it is even more interesting.

Obviously Wilson will not end up so close statistically in the passing only numbers, but it is very interesting to compare. I wonder if Brady was considered a game manager after his first three years? You really have to watch Wilson on a game by game basis to truly appreciate him.

Wilson
Year Yards CP% TD INT QBR
1 3118 64.1 26 10 71.7
2 3357 63.1 26 9 58.9
3 3475 63.1 20 7 62.4
T 9950 72 26

Brady
Year Yards CP% TD INT QBR
1 2843 63.9 18 12 86.5
2 3764 62.1 28 14 85.7
3 3620 60.2 23 12 85.9
T 10227 69 38



Disclosure: Seahawks homer, just thought these numbers were very interesting considering how close they are.

Yeah Wilson reminds me of a young Brady. Granted their play styles are pretty different, but Wilson has that certain something where he just finds the ability to make plays when his team needs them. Like young Brady he's been on a pretty damn good team that relies on good defense and doesn't ask him to be everything, but he's a perfect fit for that team.

WTH is up with his QBR though? Oh you've got it wrong, Brady's numbers are his normal quarterback rating while Wilson's is the ESPN made QBR. Wilson's quarterback ratings are 100.0, 101.2, and 95.0 for his first 3 years.
 

Ban Bot

Senior member
Jun 1, 2010
796
1
76
I believe Brady did this also.

He came into the league in the 00 draft and won the SB in '02 and in '03

Brady won 1 in his first 3 years--2000 did not start or play in the playoffs, won in 2001 when he replaced Bledsoe, and did not play in the 2002 playoffs. Of course NE won in 2003 and 2004 so he won 3 Super Bowls in 5 years. I like Brady's underdog status and wish New England had stayed the course with the strong defense and running games and let Brady efficiently take them to title wins. I think the "air onslaught" approach is boom or bust with an emphasis on bust. The most recent dynasties that come to mind--90's Dallas, 80/90 San Fran, and 70s Pitt--all had in common great defenses. San Fran, in particular, had much better defenses than most remember. People remember Montana-Rice. Then maybe Craige, Rathman, Jones, Taylor and Steve Young as a backup. The names often forgotten are Lott, Hailey, Norton, and so on.

Back to Brady...

Seahawk fans can only dream of Wilson even coming close to mimicking the Brady career arc. I am very high on Wilson but Brady is Top 5 all-time and has earned his place. Wilson is still finding his way and that career resume is a pipe dream right now. Brady progressed a lot as a passer--we don't know where Wilson's ceiling is or how age or injury will affect him. We know he ain't getting taller. My bet? Wilson ends up Top 5. I believe in the kid. But he hasn't earned that yet.

That said it is often forgotten that Brady did not start as a rookie and Aaron Rodgers didn't play his first 3 years so comparing "first 3 year stats" isn't apples to oranges. Arod first three years is essentially: 0, 0, and 0. Brady turned in essentially 0 for his first season, too. Wilson helped a team that finished 7-9 the previous years turn the corner and had some amazing games (including the 150pts in 3 games and the playoff game at Atlanta where he lead a comeback where he tossed over 385 yards passing, 60 rushing, 3 TDs and took the lead with less than 40 seconds left after being down 20 points).

Even ignoring those caveats when comparing Brady's first three seasons as a start to Wilson's it is pretty clear Wilson was better in key areas: Completion percentage, INT rate, TD rate, yards per attempt, passer rating. Yards and Attempt are volume stats but Wilson had more passing TDs and fewer turnovers. And that isn't including rushing stats were Wilson where the edge is decisive: Wilson's 1,877 yards, 11 TDs, and 6.1 avg is far and away better than Brady's 201 yards, 2 TDs, and 1.58 avg. Wilson's first 3 years as a starter were a lot better than Brady's. Bill B did a great job managing the young Brady and letting him do things he was GOOD at, avoiding weak areas (his rookie season was dink and dunk), and allowing Brady's natural competiveness to shine through. Wilson hasn't been too different except he has been even better. But that is just the first 3 seasons--Brady's excellence has been his growth, consistency, and longevity. Brady was part of the 2001-2003 teams, sometime in the 2005-2007 window Brady became the team and he has continued to be successful in the playoffs and set records. So no knock on Brady--I appreciate who he is--but Wilson was better in their early careers.

One tid bit about those lambasting Wilson's HORRIBLE first half: Brady had 3 INT in his 2006 playoff game against San Diego. Even great QBs have bad playoff games. Wilson's bad game against Green Bay isn't proof he is a limited game manager. How quickly people forgot how well Wilson has played in the playoffs--on 3rd down alone last week he was 8/8 for 199 yards and 3 TDs against a good Carolina defense. Game managers don't do that.

More proof? In the 1981 Conference game between San Francisco and Dallas, aka "The Catch" Joe Montana turned the ball over 4 times (threw 3 interceptions and lost a fumble.) But the only thing people remember about that game was the amazing play where Montana extended the play and hit Dwight Clark in the back of the end zone.

Wilson sucked for a big part of Sunday's game. The weather sucked. His passes were a little off. Kearse was a big part of his problems and put 2 balls up in the air for easy picks and on another he ran a poor route and didn't OPI. Kearse, Lynch, Baldwin, Moeaki, and Willson all had major drops on perfect tosses. So it was a team effort. But all people will remember is how the TEAM fought back and NEVER quit. And Wilson, after a rough start got better and better. His QBR (don't have quarter by quarter passer rating which is less subjective) shows how Wilson had a crappy game but had a spectacular finish. Not a spectacular play or two, but finished balls to the walls.

First quarter: 0
Second quarter: 0.2
Third quarter: 12
Fourth quarter: 70.3
Overtime: 99.9

Wilson was reading defenses perfectly, extending plays, and putting balls on dimes. He didn't get down when Lynch dropped a TD pass. He didn't lose faith when Baldwin dropped two passes or Kearse imploded. He told his guys he trusted them. And with the game on the line he came back to both and he made the gutsy call: Game winning attempt to your guy who dropped 1 and was involved on 4 INTs. But Wilson dissected the defense, changed the play, and the guy (Kearse) he had supported all game redeemed himself. That is some great leadership and intangibles. Many QBs scream and yell at their receivers when they do so poorly. Wilson kept Kearse in the game and the result was he was there when Wilson needed them. I would take this QB over any QB who publically beats down his teammates on the sideline. And yes, that is a shot at Brady.
 

Ban Bot

Senior member
Jun 1, 2010
796
1
76
The problem with that excuse is that Rodgers wasn't throwing 4 INTs. The wind didn't effect him as much, it seems. Is he just immune to wind gusts, or did they only happen on Seattle drives?

Fieldgulls has a really good overview of Rodger's passes (this isn't the link I am thinking of but it highlights a couple I am thinking of). He did have 2 interceptions but he also had quite a few near INTs. What the broadcast called "throw aways" were a number of times balls that drifted due to the wind. Rodgers was affected but from what I understand it was wind from the south and most of the issues came when teams were driving that direction. The wind died down toward the end.

To Rodgers' merit: He has a live arm. Wilson has a good arm, but Rodgers may have the best in the league. His ability to zip a ball into a small window on a low trajectory is nearly unparalleled. Wilson isn't quite as explosive on the moderate length routes (deep outs, ins, curls) or deep balls into soft spots into zones. Not that Wilson cannot but I would say he is average in the NFL where Aaron is #1-#3. That can make a difference. Look at the past 2 weeks and most of Wilson's big plays came on deep touch passes put on a dime with players in stride. Those are passes more likely to be affected by the wind.

This also could be a height issue.

Wilson at times shows an impressive arm where you pause and question his "NFL average arm with top end touch deep ball." It may very well be the "line drive" rocket throws from the pocket are a no-no as the low trajectory isn't workable with his height.

I think the height issue is overblown but it IS a limitation. Just as his ability to throw accurate on the run is an ability that is a limitation for 90% of NFL quarterbacks. Pros and Cons. Wilson has done well in some windy games but the 2 very windy playoff games have seen some erratic performances. Brees was poor last year and Rodgers well below average, too, in those games.
 

lupi

Lifer
Apr 8, 2001
32,539
260
126
Former iggles and jets OC Mornhinweg signed as Ravens QB coach.

Following the joy of hiring Gailey, Bowles has now declared that Geno "was a great college QB". Looking to be a great season!
 

TheSlamma

Diamond Member
Sep 6, 2005
7,625
5
81
The funny part about that is Tom is a notorious shit talking, according to players that go against him. He was talking shit to Sherman before the game, and Sherman had to let him know what was up after.
yep

I hope when Sherman pics him off he checks the ball pressure on camera
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
Former iggles and jets OC Mornhinweg signed as Ravens QB coach.

Following the joy of hiring Gailey, Bowles has now declared that Geno "was a great college QB". Looking to be a great season!

That's some strong medication there if he believes that.
 

RampantAndroid

Diamond Member
Jun 27, 2004
6,591
3
81
Oh wait, that was Gronk MUGGED in the Carolina game in the EZ, point was valid, a flag should have been thrown, that was Brady defending his player against the Ref's NOT Brady following a player after a game taunting him like a fucking 5 yr old (Sherman). punk's gonna be punk.

The flag was picked up in the case I'm referring to. It was Brady running off the field to yell at a ref. That's worse.
 
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