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zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
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I dont know lapping 0.4s faster than the other drivers while using a 25+ lap tire estimated to last for 25 laps would be hard. Ferrari should have pitted Sainz earlier instead so he could have more time to catch.

At this point Sainz is not a contender for the WDC, I imagine Ferrari would rather dedicate more resources to Leclerc, who still has a shot at it, due to the cost cap ($140m).
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
I can see that would have made most sense if he was any threat to Verstappen and taking first from him, to reduce the gap to Charles and they maybe would have left him in.

I'll convince myself that Ferrari decided that the only thing he could do was get fresh tires and steal the fastest lap point from Max.
 

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
I dont know lapping 0.4s faster than the other drivers while using a 25+ lap tire estimated to last for 25 laps would be hard. Ferrari should have pitted Sainz earlier instead so he could have more time to catch.

At this point Sainz is not a contender for the WDC, I imagine Ferrari would rather dedicate more resources to Leclerc, who still has a shot at it, due to the cost cap ($140m).
Yes, that would have been the smart move, but Ferrari have been making such bizarre strategy calls lately that it’s becoming a sad meme. That and their reliability problems. Hopefully next year they’ll have their engine sorted. If Mercedes can fix their problems, we could actually see a three way title battle.
 

zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
972
62
91
Formula 1 HUNGARIAN GRAND PRIX Final Race Results:
POSDriverTeamTimeStops
1Max VerstappenRed Bull1:39:35.9122
2Lewis HamiltonMercedes7.834s2
3George RussellMercedes12.337s2
4Carlos SainzFerrari14.579s2
5Sergio PerezRed Bull15.688s2
6Charles LeclercFerrari16.047s3
7Lando NorrisMcLaren78.300s2
8Fernando AlonsoAlpine1 LAP1
9Esteban OconAlpine1 LAP1
10Sebastian VettelAston Martin1 LAP2
11Lance StrollAston Martin1 LAP2
12Pierre GaslyAlphaTauri1 LAP2
13Guanyu ZhouAlfa Romeo Racing1 LAP2
14Mick SchumacherHaas1 LAP2
15Daniel RicciardoMcLaren1 LAP2
16Kevin MagnussenHaas1 LAP3
17Alex AlbonWilliams1 LAP3
18Nicholas LatifiWilliams1 LAP3
19Yuki TsunodaAlphaTauri2 LAPS3
RValtteri BottasAlfa Romeo Racing4 LAPS1
What a great drive by Verstappen and Hamilton. Verstappen won the race even after starting at 10th place in the grid. Ferrari on the other hand did Ferrari things again. They somehow thought it was a good idea to put Leclerc on hards even though Alpine who changed to hards earlier than them were producing horrible results with the tire and Leclerc telling them that he wants to long on medium. Mercedes were there again to capitalized with the mistake.

Unless something goes horribly wrong with Red Bull on the second half Verstappen have pretty much clinched the WDC.
 
Reactions: Ajay

Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,106
136
Yeah, RB and Merc have outstanding execution on all fronts (obviously with occasional errors). Ferrari seems to have exchanged their collective minds with bowls of Cheerios. Stunning bad strategy decisions one race after another. What the heck is going on in the pit wall??? Leclerc hadn't run on hards all weekend, the track was cooling, but hey - this is the winning move! Oof!
 

Dranoche

Senior member
Jul 6, 2009
302
68
101
What's everybody's take on the Piastri drama and the rest of the 2023 driver lineup?

At this point I wonder if Piastri will end up with any seat at all. Not sure what Alpine expected would happen. Ocon was locked. With Alonso's contract up they should have gone ahead and offered him the extension he wanted or locked Piastri. Alpine is going to enforce their contract to at least try to get back some of the money they've invested in Piastri. Will McLaren still take him if they end up having to pay out to Alpine on top of severance for Ricciardo? If the FIA and/or a court say Piastri stays with Alpine, what then?

I would love to see Ricciardo stay and be in a car he doesn't feel like he's fighting, but am split on if it either will happen. Schumacher and Tsunoda probably staying where they are. Would like to see both stay at least one more year, particularly Schumacher. Tsunoda seems to be one step forward, two back lately. Not sure who would replace either, and I think Schumacher brings sponsors which Haas really needs. If either goes would probably be Tsunoda. Zhou deserves to stay and I see no reason why he wouldn't. Latifi most likely of all of them to be out. Whatever the shuffle, I'm guessing no more than 2 of these are out.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
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What's everybody's take on the Piastri drama and the rest of the 2023 driver lineup?

At this point I wonder if Piastri will end up with any seat at all. Not sure what Alpine expected would happen. Ocon was locked. With Alonso's contract up they should have gone ahead and offered him the extension he wanted or locked Piastri. Alpine is going to enforce their contract to at least try to get back some of the money they've invested in Piastri. Will McLaren still take him if they end up having to pay out to Alpine on top of severance for Ricciardo? If the FIA and/or a court say Piastri stays with Alpine, what then?

I would love to see Ricciardo stay and be in a car he doesn't feel like he's fighting, but am split on if it either will happen. Schumacher and Tsunoda probably staying where they are. Would like to see both stay at least one more year, particularly Schumacher. Tsunoda seems to be one step forward, two back lately. Not sure who would replace either, and I think Schumacher brings sponsors which Haas really needs. If either goes would probably be Tsunoda. Zhou deserves to stay and I see no reason why he wouldn't. Latifi most likely of all of them to be out. Whatever the shuffle, I'm guessing no more than 2 of these are out.

I think Piastri ends up being a loaner to Williams for a season, to replace Latifi's seat, while Ricciardo finishes out? Both teams will get some money/contract renegotiations, with Williams subsidizing a bit of that to fill out a seat on the cheap, with YASTBCD to warm up a seat, but I think it ends up with Piastri with his "temporary leave" to fulfill the end of his Alpine contract, but ultimately open at the end of 2023

Honestly, at this point, that kind of situation is the best for McClaren, works really well for Williams, probably, and Alpine...eh, slightly mollified? dunno.

Kid could always turn out to be a bust at the next level. things like this happen, and now with the added drama that didn't really used to happen this early in their careers? Remember that these guys are basically children at this point in their career, with this kind of pressure. ....
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
Guys, this Max Verstappen dude is pretty good. I think he's going to be winning some races!

11Max VerstappenRED BULL RACING RBPT721:36:42.77326
263George RussellMERCEDES72+4.071s18
316Charles LeclercFERRARI72+10.929s15
444Lewis HamiltonMERCEDES72+13.016s12
511Sergio PerezRED BULL RACING RBPT72+18.168s10
614Fernando AlonsoALPINE RENAULT72+18.754s8
74Lando NorrisMCLAREN MERCEDES72+19.306s6
855Carlos SainzFERRARI72+20.916s4
931Esteban OconALPINE RENAULT72+21.117s2
1018Lance StrollASTON MARTIN ARAMCO MERCEDES72+22.459s1
1110Pierre GaslyALPHATAURI RBPT72+27.009s0
1223Alexander AlbonWILLIAMS MERCEDES72+30.390s0
1347Mick SchumacherHAAS FERRARI72+32.995s0
145Sebastian VettelASTON MARTIN ARAMCO MERCEDES72+36.007s0
1520Kevin MagnussenHAAS FERRARI72+36.869s0
1624Zhou GuanyuALFA ROMEO FERRARI72+37.320s0
173Daniel RicciardoMCLAREN MERCEDES72+37.764s0
186Nicholas LatifiWILLIAMS MERCEDES71+1 lap0
NC77Valtteri BottasALFA ROMEO FERRARI53DNF0
NC22Yuki TsunodaALPHATAURI RBPT43DNF0

Ferrari...does it again. In that the team can't seem to get out of the way of ruining their drivers' races.

I understand why Lewis is pissed about tire situation, yet again, but I'm not sure what else Mercedes should have done. I assume he didn't really know that pulling George in was George's call, but it's not like Verstappen wasn't going to pass both of them in the restart, anyway.

If anything, I felt like they did everything they could have done by taking the opportunity to switch him to mediums during the VSC. The FSC after Tsunoda's initial fake just screwed a lot of people over. (especially LeClerc)
 
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_Rick_

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2012
3,937
69
91
At this point I am starting to wonder, when Max will just stop participating in quali, since apparently he can win any race from any position these days.
The only reason to do quali is to collect those Pirelli trophies.

But man, it must suck to be his teammate. Latifi makes any teammate look like the real deal, Verstappen makes them look like amateurs.
 

_Rick_

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2012
3,937
69
91
Damn, Singapore was an exciting race. Really made me miss Malaysia, where the conditions were often quite similar.
 
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Dranoche

Senior member
Jul 6, 2009
302
68
101
Verstappen took the championship at Suzuka thanks to a mistake by Leclerc in the final chicane on the final lap. It was inevitable though. Rough first lap - Sainz's crash, Albon's mechanical failure right near Sainz, Hamilton almost hitting Sainz due to visibility, Gasly getting hit by the advertising board, the recovery vehicle on the track after the red flag but with drivers still out. Some interesting defenses towards the end - Leclerc/Perez and Ocon/Hamilton.

Unless there are some wild series of retirements, Leclerc and Perez have a close fight for second, and Russell and Sainz for fourth. Hamilton isn't so far behind he couldn't get into the fight for fourth.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
I thought maybe this was Hamilton's best shot at getting a win this year--but really depended on pole.

The championship bump after the end, and between interviews, was rather amusing. I always like how the math shuffling sometimes works out in F1, with post-race delays and adjustments, haha.
 

Dranoche

Senior member
Jul 6, 2009
302
68
101
I wonder if there will be another update to the points rules. Everybody was expecting partial points, which even with Leclerc dropped to 3rd would have made it mathematically possible for him or Perez to win, thus delaying Max being crowned champion.

Apparently the partial points is only for when the race is stopped and can't be restarted. I think if the race gets back underway they need to either reward partial points for a notably shortened race ended at the time limit, or waive the time limit and let them run as long as conditions allow. Rain conditions were much better and there was still light.

Also, good on Zhou for taking fastest lap.
 

zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
972
62
91
It went downhill really fast for Ferrari. From being the fastest car on the field and leading in points to getting absolutely curb stomp by RB.

Red Bull as a team is a beast. From strategies, development, drivers and even pitstops they have it all figured out right now.
 

_Rick_

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2012
3,937
69
91
and over spending
Well, now F1 has made accounting a sport, so of course RB would try to push the limits.
Will be interesting to see how this will play out.
Since overspend is an easy metric, I am surprised, that there was no agreement on exact penalties ahead of time, especially since the results will always come in one year after the championship was decided - so there will always be a reluctance to penalize for the already decided season.
Applying penalties to the running season would work better (but then, remember e.g. the Force India to Racing Point transition, where constructors points were lost - so would be any penalties).

It should probably be really simple: Up to a lower limit apply a financial penalty. Probably in the 1 Mio. overspend range. If someone crashes into you in one of the last races of the season, you should still be able to afford a new chassis for the rest of the season, without getting a sporting penalty. Just make it a straight up deduction from next year's budget, plus interest/inflation and flat fee/fine for the FIA having to handle the issue.
Above that practical limit, deduct twice the percentage of overspend from the points for the currently active season, from all drivers and team, for the entire season. Overspent 3% last year? Lose 6% of this year's current and future points (plus a higher fixed fee/fine for processing).
And above, say, 10%: straight up disqualification from the running season, and no payout of constructors championship prize money for last season. Basically end the team.


See, that's not so hard. There's no reason to overspend, penalties are clear, and there's plenty of headroom to have misunderstandings of the rulings and creative accounting with known risks involved. And if you take a higher risk: well you know in advance, that you're playing with fire.

On a positive note though: Only one team slightly overspent - and at least tried to do so in a "sporting" way - by playing the rules, not just flaunting them. This might make F1 just that little bit more sustainable, and if the method hold true, maybe can be applied to other top series as well, e..g WEC or WRC, maybe even DTM and FE. If you can then even allow more technical liberties, while putting in place stricter financial restrictions, this could lead to more innovation on a regular basis.
Of course, it will likely take another couple of years to see how well the budget monitoring really works, and how much money can be siphoned past the FIA's external controllers.
 

Dranoche

Senior member
Jul 6, 2009
302
68
101
Good race at COTA. Poor Carlos Sainz, been wrecked out by half the grid at this point. Looked like he was going to have a good rebound after his mistake and misfortune in Japan.
 

zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
972
62
91
Formula 1 Mexican Grand Prix Final Race Results:
PosDriverTeamTimeStops
1Max VerstappenRed Bull1:22.9171
2Lewis HamiltonMercedes+ 15.1861
3Sergio PerezRed Bull+ 18.0971
4George RussellMercedes+ 49.4312
5Carlos SainzFerrari+ 58.1231
6Charles LeclercFerrari+ 68.7741
7Daniel RicciardoMcLaren+ 1 LAP1
8Esteban OconAlpine+ 1 LAP1
9Lando NorrisMcLaren+ 1 LAP1
10Valtteri BottasAlfa Romeo Racing+ 1 LAP1
11Pierre GaslyAlphaTauri+ 1 LAP1
12Alex AlbonWilliams+ 1 LAP1
13Guanyu ZhouAlfa Romeo Racing+ 1 LAP1
14Sebastian VettelAston Martin+ 1 LAP1
15Lance StrollAston Martin+ 1 LAP2
16Mick SchumacherHaas+ 1 LAP1
17Kevin MagnussenHaas+ 1 LAP1
18Nicholas LatifiWilliams+ 2 LAPS2
RFernando AlonsoAlpine+ 7 LAPS1
RYuki TsunodaAlphaTauri+ 20 LAPS2

Boring race overall. Ricciardo looked good during the race and got driver of the day sadly its a little too late for him as he's out without a ride for next year and also he ruined Tsunoda's race.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,803
29,553
146
Apparently the McClaren levels up and absorbs the powers of the driver and car that you take out.
 

_Rick_

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2012
3,937
69
91
Formula 1 Mexican Grand Prix Final Race Results:
Boring race overall. Ricciardo looked good during the race and got driver of the day sadly its a little too late for him as he's out without a ride for next year and also he ruined Tsunoda's race.

His weak qualifying made it so that he wasn't under any pressure from behind, so McLaren could experiment/risk more with the strategy, as there was no one to cover. That way he ended up on the ultimately optimal strategy. That he still managed to squander the advantage by crashing into Yuki in an ill-conceived move probably paints the fulle picture.

The main story for me was still Mercedes refusing to experiment with George's strategy. He was under no threat from behind, and would have needed all the advantage he could get to attack Checo. Medium-Hard was never going to make him that threat. His drop-off on the aging mediums was nothing to worry about, so keeping him out until a VSC or Safety car happens, or the tires actually started going away might have been slower - but it might also bridge the gap to a stint on softs, which were so much faster than worn mediums or hards, that you might just be able to do something with them. With the #44 car, they had something to lose by going experimental with the strategy, and covering RB was good enough. But George was in a different race.

Also, great team play by Lewis, pushing George into fourth at T2/3. Those kind of moves are what could end up costing Merc second in the Championship.
 

zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
972
62
91
Question now is does Mercedes want that 2nd at WCC? 3rd place would mean more aero time which might be more beneficial next season.
 

zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
972
62
91
Formula 1 Brazilian Grand Prix Final Race Results:
PosDriverTeamTimeStops
1George RussellMercedes1:14.8782
2Lewis HamiltonMercedes+ 1.5292
3Carlos SainzFerrari+4.0513
4Charles LeclercFerrari+8.4413
5Fernando AlonsoAlpine+9.5613
6Max VerstappenRed Bull+ 10.0563
7Sergio PerezRed Bull+ 14.0802
8Esteban OconAlpine+ 18.6902
9Valtteri BottasAlfa Romeo Racing+ 22.5522
10Lance StrollAston Martin+ 23.5522
11Sebastian VettelAston Martin+ 26.1832
12Pierre GaslyAlphaTauri+ 26.8673
13Guanyu ZhouAlfa Romeo Racing+ 29.3252
14Mick SchumacherHaas+ 29.8992
15Alex AlbonWilliams+ 36.0163
16Nicholas LatifiWilliams+ 37.0383
17Yuki TsunodaAlphaTauri+ 1 LAP3
RLando NorrisMcLaren+ 20 LAPS2
RKevin MagnussenHaas+ 70 LAPS0
RDaniel RicciardoMcLaren+ 70 LAPS0

What an eventful race. A 1-2 finish for Mercedes with Russell getting the fastest lap and his first win. Ferrari picking up the slack from Red Bull. Alpine did amazing starting from 16/17 and finishing 5th and 8th. For McLaren a terrible race, Ricciardo crash onto Magnussen who then spun and crashed into him while Norris' car broke. As for Red Bull, Verstappen certainly looked like a villain this race. Lost a lot of places early when hit Hamilton going too fast into the corner, he was then given the opportunity to try to overtake Alonso near the end of the race by swapping with Perez on the condition that he would give the place back if he wasn't able to which he later defied because of reasons. Perez was extremely pissed especially since Verstappen gained nothing for the getting the 6th place as he already is world champion while he was fighting Leclerc for 2nd place in WDC standings.
 
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