(Updated)Is it just me or do 401ks seem more and more like failed idea.

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Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
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My current 4901(k) contributions are all in a targeted date fund, "American Funds 2050 Target Date Retirement Fund® Class R-3." I just leave it alone. I'll glance at the quarterly statements when I get them in the mail, but I don't manage it at all. I don't know enough about investing to manage it myself and I don't really care to. However, looking at the returns, they don't seem very good:

-1.03% (YTD Daily)
-2.90% (1 Yr)
+9.26% (3 Yr)
+9.04% (5 Yr)
+4.58% (Life of fund)

9.26% return for the last 3 years isn't "very good"? What the fuck are you looking for man? Most people will agree that the expected market return for a diversified fund is fairly satisfactory at a 6% rate. What are you looking for? Double your money in 2 years?
 

Newell Steamer

Diamond Member
Jan 27, 2014
6,894
8
0
They are fine - in the long run. You certainly will have dips. But, it is the best way to get the most money for retirement.

Furthermore, your employer may match your contribution; that is FREE money. Why not?

401k + Roth/Traditional IRA + possible SS + regular savings is my suggestion.
 

clamum

Lifer
Feb 13, 2003
26,255
403
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9.26% return for the last 3 years isn't "very good"? What the fuck are you looking for man? Most people will agree that the expected market return for a diversified fund is fairly satisfactory at a 6% rate. What are you looking for? Double your money in 2 years?
LOL. Calm down. I said I wasn't an investment guru, and I was merely looking at the return of that fund compared to the others available. I actually have some in a 2050 fund too which I didn't realize, and that one is 4.58% life-of-fund return.

 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,303
5,732
136
Who the hell needs 50 years to invest anyways? You will be so close to the brink of death I don't even see the purpose.

If you can't retire after ~30 (ideally - 40 being the worst) years of work then you have simply failed and are probably never going to retire.

it doesn't matter how long you invest, it matters how long you hold the investment.

money i put in my 401k at 20 will be compounded for 50 years when i turn 70. will i have worked for that long? certainly not, i plan on retiring before i turn 50. but that doesn't stop the ER.
 

rcpratt

Lifer
Jul 2, 2009
10,433
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-2.7% YTD
-1.9% 1-year
+10.55% 3-year annualized

I'm not worried about it. Most of us have a long ways to go. Unless you're within a few years of retiring, there's really no point in worrying about it. It'll change five times over.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
175
106
Please, don't anyone count on in any way receiving a pension. That applies to both private entities and government pensions. Don't count on SS either. There will have to be massive changes made to that program if it is to survive.

Definitely don't count on SS if you're going to retire after 2035. Unless they drastically increase SS taxes (removing income cap, adding surcharge to high wage earners) or decrease benefits paid out (means testing, increasing retirement age) then the program will go tits up eventually.

I fully expect the 6.2% I pay in my entire working life to be taken away when I retire because I saved "too much" on my own.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
With a 401k you start off saving on your income taxes, at your highest tax rate. So an instant 15-32% right there. If you have employer matching that's another instant 25-100%.

Pick good index funds if your 401k offers them, and just ignore the market dips. When you change jobs roll over your 401k to vanguard.com. Retire comfortably.
 
Oct 20, 2005
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I am 35 and I have been putting most of mine in targeted retirement funds like JPmorgan {insert retirement date} etc.

Ok, I'm not the most knowledgeable investor but think about it like this. When the market is down, share prices are cheaper. Thus your contributions can buy more shares during those times. By the time you retire, those same investments should be a lot higher.
 

edro

Lifer
Apr 5, 2002
24,328
68
91
Ok, I'm not the most knowledgeable investor but think about it like this. When the market is down, share prices are cheaper. Thus your contributions can buy more shares during those times. By the time you retire, those same investments should be a lot higher.
Yeah but a dip on your whole account is much larger than your new low cost contributions can match.
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
401ks and any other government-sponsored tax deferral plans are retarded; the system is rigged.

Private investment in marketable securities (the funds inside 401ks) is retarded; the system is rigged.

Even if your company is max-matching you will always lose.
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
401ks and any other government-sponsored tax deferral plans are retarded; the system is rigged.

Private investment in marketable securities (the funds inside 401ks) is retarded; the system is rigged.

Even if your company is max-matching you will always lose.
And what doesn't invest in a marketable security?
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
401ks and any other government-sponsored tax deferral plans are retarded; the system is rigged.

Private investment in marketable securities (the funds inside 401ks) is retarded; the system is rigged.

Even if your company is max-matching you will always lose.

Yes, 401ks make no sense if you are a doomsday prepper. For those people you should buy gold bars from a Glenn Beck approved vendor, plus 10-20 guns, 10-20,000 rounds of ammo, canned and dried food, a Pip-boy and some power armor.
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
Yes, 401ks make no sense if you are a doomsday prepper. For those people you should buy gold bars from a Glenn Beck approved vendor, plus 10-20 guns, 10-20,000 rounds of ammo, canned and dried food, a Pip-boy and some power armor.

Ahh, the exact idiotic reply in envisioned...
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Ahh, the exact idiotic reply in envisioned...

And you think your post was good? You provide no rationale for it. You provide no reasoning as to what is a "marketable security" and why you shouldn't invest in them. You provide no alternatives.

Nothing, just trash.
 

SphinxnihpS

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2005
8,368
25
91
And what doesn't invest in a marketable security?

Is real estate a marketable security? Are there other valuable things which are not securities? Do you know what a security is?

What I meant specifically about the securities industry being rigged is that it is rigged in favor of institutional investors. Of course your pitiful 401k may be managed by one of those, but in turn for letting you in they take a cut.

This doesn't even take into account that banking is fully rigged, and the government which is nice enough to allow you a tax advantage in their plan is lying in bed with the banks and securities industry, which are both private.

Has it not been shown to you how government oversight is a sham? Already forget "too big to fail"?

Buying into a government tax scheme that also utilizes private investment in the securities industry is a double-whammy method of pissing all sorts of money down the drain.

Go check the national debt my friend. Who do you thing we owe that money to?

You owe $62,000.
 

BxgJ

Golden Member
Jul 27, 2015
1,054
123
106
Is real estate a marketable security? Are there other valuable things which are not securities? Do you know what a security is?

What I meant specifically about the securities industry being rigged is that it is rigged in favor of institutional investors. Of course your pitiful 401k may be managed by one of those, but in turn for letting you in they take a cut.

This doesn't even take into account that banking is fully rigged, and the government which is nice enough to allow you a tax advantage in their plan is lying in bed with the banks and securities industry, which are both private.

Has it not been shown to you how government oversight is a sham? Already forget "too big to fail"?

Buying into a government tax scheme that also utilizes private investment in the securities industry is a double-whammy method of pissing all sorts of money down the drain.

Go check the national debt my friend. Who do you thing we owe that money to?

You owe $62,000.

Mostly ourselves.
 

BxgJ

Golden Member
Jul 27, 2015
1,054
123
106
Yes, 401ks make no sense if you are a doomsday prepper. For those people you should buy gold bars from a Glenn Beck approved vendor, plus 10-20 guns, 10-20,000 rounds of ammo, canned and dried food, a Pip-boy and some power armor.

:awe:
 

LegendKiller

Lifer
Mar 5, 2001
18,256
68
86
Is real estate a marketable security? Are there other valuable things which are not securities? Do you know what a security is?

What I meant specifically about the securities industry being rigged is that it is rigged in favor of institutional investors. Of course your pitiful 401k may be managed by one of those, but in turn for letting you in they take a cut.

This doesn't even take into account that banking is fully rigged, and the government which is nice enough to allow you a tax advantage in their plan is lying in bed with the banks and securities industry, which are both private.

Has it not been shown to you how government oversight is a sham? Already forget "too big to fail"?

Buying into a government tax scheme that also utilizes private investment in the securities industry is a double-whammy method of pissing all sorts of money down the drain.

Go check the national debt my friend. Who do you thing we owe that money to?

You owe $62,000.

Do you know what a security is?

Do you know what an institutional investor is?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
401ks and any other government-sponsored tax deferral plans are retarded; the system is rigged.

Private investment in marketable securities (the funds inside 401ks) is retarded; the system is rigged.

Even if your company is max-matching you will always lose.

You should put your earnings and savings in a lockbox under your bed to be sure.
 

TheGardener

Golden Member
Jul 19, 2014
1,945
33
56
The idea of the old style pension plan has failed. The only entities that still have this are federal, state and municipal governments, and a few private sector unions. Those private sector unions that are still around, have had to give back, because their salaries and benefits were too generous compared to similar workers in the global economy and because their members have been undercut by illegal and uncontrolled immigration. In Illinois the state pension plan is underfunded by 60%. Ten states are underfunded by more than 40%. Those pension plans are too generous, and the management perhaps is corrupt. Pension plans worked in the early to mid 20th century, because the workforce and the economy were expanding so rapidly. Then in the 1970's the bottom started to fall out, particularly in manufacturing, and the pension plan weaknesses were exposed. Still public sector pension plans in too many states failed to see the light and have responded too little too late.

While not perfect, IRA's and 401k's have been put in place, and are the best option for most workers. The company will have a good plan if:

1) there is a company full or partial match to the employee's contributions, which are tax deferred. Keep in mind that the employee contribution is also tax deferred.

2) there is a reasonable vesting period for when the company's match is 100% vested, that is, part of your 401k. If you leave the company, before the match is 100% vested, then you stand to lose all or part of the match.

3) the company provides alternatives to their match being company stock.

4) the plan administration expenses are low or free. And try to avoid investing in mutual funds that have a high expense ratio. The lower the fund's expense, the better your chances are of making a higher return. If you are only offered funds that have a front-end load (generally 2% to 5.75% expense that come out your contribution and match), then you are not in a good plan.

5) watch out for annuities in the plan. They are generally VERY expensive in fees, and 99% of us never need an annuity in a 401k plan. Many people are in a 403b plan, which is commonly found in colleges. A good number of them wrap the investments in an annuity plan. But not a lot you can do. In some cases you can transfer the balance to a brokerage house, without triggering taxes, but that is a complicated process, if even offered.

Brightscope is an interesting website to look up your 401k plan. If it is listed there, you can see comparison ratings, and even some peer company plans are linked. The service I described is free. They do however, track the number of lookups by cookies, and have an annoying popup window to get you to sign up to the site.

http://www.brightscope.com

To the OP, I know that losing money is scary, but it does happen over the course of 30 to 40 years. You may want to re-exam your investments and see if you can do anything to lower the risks you are taking. Market timing doesn't really work. To paraphrase or quote John Bogle, the founder of Vanguard Group, "stay the course." Unless you are going to start a company or work for a startup, all which are highly risky, your best course of action is compounding your investments over years and keeping the expenses low.
 
Last edited:

cliftonite

Diamond Member
Jul 15, 2001
6,899
63
91
I love my 401k, I max it out and my employer adds about 10k through our match. Hard to beat that....
 
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