Updated w/ new price - NEC ND-1300A 4x +/- DVD R/RW Drive $113.00

[The Sauce]

You think that the switch from 1394 to DVI has something to do with piracy??? Could you please explain that connection to me? Seems more like the mega-corps switching proprietary connectors to outdate their equipment and force new purchases if you ask me...which is just more of the same.

No one would argue with you about piracy. It's bad. Your analogy to currency is completely bunk. There is no legitimate comparison between copying currency, which you use to trade for goods and services, and copying a song to keep for yourself as a backup. Not everyone has the time to march to capital hill and effect legislative change. I am protesting the companies that are buying these laws by not purchasing their products. In the meanwhile I shall continue to do what is right by my own code of ethics and morals (which the government's special-interest group purchased laws can not provide for me). If they outlaw backup programs then it will continue to be just as easy using free software available on the net. End of story.

 

[BustaBust]

One more thing.....the NEC I think has a 2mb buffer and the Optorite has an 8mb buffer.

 

[saechaka]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
You think that the switch from 1394 to DVI has something to do with piracy??? Could you please explain that connection to me? Seems more like the mega-corps switching proprietary connectors to outdate their equipment and force new purchases if you ask me...which is just more of the same.

No one would argue with you about piracy. It's bad. Your analogy to currency is completely bunk. There is no legitimate comparison between copying currency, which you use to trade for goods and services, and copying a song to keep for yourself as a backup. Not everyone has the time to march to capital hill and effect legislative change. I am protesting the companies that are buying these laws by not purchasing their products. In the meanwhile I shall continue to do what is right by my own code of ethics and morals (which the government's special-interest group purchased laws can not provide for me). If they outlaw backup programs then it will continue to be just as easy using free software available on the net. End of story.

preach on brother man!! tell that eh hole whats up. i don't think we have a place in here for people like that who follow every freakin rule to a tee.

 

[RightHere]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
You think that the switch from 1394 to DVI has something to do with piracy??? Could you please explain that connection to me? Seems more like the mega-corps switching proprietary connectors to outdate their equipment and force new purchases if you ask me...which is just more of the same.

No, it's all about copy protection. They went with 1394 first. Then I guess they got nervous with the potential of having a PC in the mix. Why would they not want that? Piracy. It has NOTHING to do with trying to "outdate" equipment. There weren't many 1394-capable TV's in existence at the time that decision was made.

No one would argue with you about piracy. It's bad.

Yet you continue to argue...

Your analogy to currency is completely bunk. There is no legitimate comparison between copying currency, which you use to trade for goods and services, and copying a song to keep for yourself as a backup.

Do you own the license to make a legitimate copy of the currency? Do you have proof that you own the license to make full digital "backup copies" of any media you own?

Not everyone has the time to march to capital hill and effect legislative change. I am protesting the companies that are buying these laws by not purchasing their products. In the meanwhile I shall continue to do what is right by my own code of ethics and morals (which the government's special-interest group purchased laws can not provide for me). If they outlaw backup programs then it will continue to be just as easy using free software available on the net. End of story.

So because you are TOO LAZY to try to make a change, it's ok for you to break the law? That's one of the silliest things I've ever heard!! You don't need to march anywhere. Call/write your congressman. Get your friends to do the same. Try to make a difference.

If you are protesting by not buying their products, I wonder how you are getting these movies? Hmmmm...

Let's not call these things "backup" programs. We all know they are illegal DVD decryption programs. The lawsuits are still working through the court system, but you will most likely be in violation of the DMCA just by downloading such a program.

 

[Chuck2]

And the song goes on and on and on and on!!

 

[RightHere]

Originally posted by: Chuck2
And the song goes on and on and on and on!!

Thanks for a very helpful and informative post!! Now, get back under your rock.

 

[BaseGrizzly]

Originally posted by: RightHereSo because you are TOO LAZY to try to make a change, it's ok for you to break the law? That's one of the silliest things I've ever heard!! You don't need to march anywhere. Call/write your congressman. Get your friends to do the same. Try to make a difference.

He's not being lazy. This is a well known fact in economics: special interests will set policy because there are a few bent on creating a law, and the people it hurts (the general public, us) do not have a group lobbying Congress for this specific issue because the opportunity cost is too high.

And let's be serious here, even with the entire FatWallet forums writing to their Congressmen, there won't be enough public opinion to make a difference. The Congressman will pocket the money from the lobbyists for their campaign funds and will continue to gain votes from those voters who have still never heard of the DMCA.

 

[Nostrada]

Originally posted by: RightHere

Originally posted by: Chuck2
And the song goes on and on and on and on!!

Thanks for a very helpful and informative post!! Now, get back under your rock.

Thanks for a very helpful and informative post!! Now, get back under your rock.

 

[Overzeetop]

Ahhh, if you'd just convinced your congressman to outlaw encryption of data which is sold for consumer use, and asked them to pay for a backbone transplant for Michael Powell at the FCC to force all companies using US broadcast frequencies to allow analog video at the HD source resolution you wouldn't be in this boat. But no, you've got your beer and king size fritos with the bowl of dip next to that plaid barcalounger and it would just be too much trouble to have to call or write a letter.

Me? I spoke to my US representative, Rick Boucher, in person about this problem and he is in the process of trying to get more consumer-friendly legistaion passed. But he needs help from your representative to get the job done. Yes, I also wrote (snail mail) my senators, both Republicans, who replied that - in effect - that's not what their big dollar lobbiests want, and that I don't reflect the mainstram opinion of Virginians, so they won't be doing anything about it.


edit...I should have added - I use my Optowrite burner ($133 from livewarehouse - good experience, not sure of the price now) to back up my company's data primarily. However, I plan on using it to make "Backup" copies of my Disney VHS tapes - many of which are out of print, including Song of the South - so that they don't degrade any further and so I can access them from my DVD jukebox. Heck, I may even borrow a DVD of those movies so my backup of the material is the quality I had when the tape was new. I'll likely even use +RW discs to my movies to "lend" to family members, since I don't trust them with my originals.

 

[The Sauce]

Originally posted by: RightHere

Originally posted by: Snatchface
You think that the switch from 1394 to DVI has something to do with piracy??? Could you please explain that connection to me? Seems more like the mega-corps switching proprietary connectors to outdate their equipment and force new purchases if you ask me...which is just more of the same.

No, it's all about copy protection. They went with 1394 first. Then I guess they got nervous with the potential of having a PC in the mix. Why would they not want that? Piracy. It has NOTHING to do with trying to "outdate" equipment. There weren't many 1394-capable TV's in existence at the time that decision was made.

No one would argue with you about piracy. It's bad.

Yet you continue to argue...

Your analogy to currency is completely bunk. There is no legitimate comparison between copying currency, which you use to trade for goods and services, and copying a song to keep for yourself as a backup.

Do you own the license to make a legitimate copy of the currency? Do you have proof that you own the license to make full digital "backup copies" of any media you own?

Not everyone has the time to march to capital hill and effect legislative change. I am protesting the companies that are buying these laws by not purchasing their products. In the meanwhile I shall continue to do what is right by my own code of ethics and morals (which the government's special-interest group purchased laws can not provide for me). If they outlaw backup programs then it will continue to be just as easy using free software available on the net. End of story.

So because you are TOO LAZY to try to make a change, it's ok for you to break the law? That's one of the silliest things I've ever heard!! You don't need to march anywhere. Call/write your congressman. Get your friends to do the same. Try to make a difference.

If you are protesting by not buying their products, I wonder how you are getting these movies? Hmmmm...

Let's not call these things "backup" programs. We all know they are illegal DVD decryption programs. The lawsuits are still working through the court system, but you will most likely be in violation of the DMCA just by downloading such a program.

So be it then. I'm in violation of a lot of things, the DMCA the least moralistic of them. I almost never drive the speed limit. I jay-walk constantly. And I have ripped all the tags off of my mattresses a long, long time ago. Just call me bad-ass #1.

I am not arguing that piracy is bad. I am arguing the definition of piracy. Your definition (and ethics, apparently) has been purchased through expensive lobbying campaigns and corrupt politicians by special interest groups. Mine I have based on my own, and society's, ethics and principles. To me piracy is not, and never will be, copying a music cd that I own so that I can listen to it in my MP3 player. No law will ever change that. And there will always be a way for me to do that, illegally or not. And as long as there remains a way I will do my utmost to make sure that it is available to everyone else as well...just on principles. If there is not, then I would stop buying music...and I know most people would as well.

Now for the shocker...I actually agree with you. Most people are probably using those "backup" programs to illegally copy protected materials either for sale or for personal use of materials that they do not own - just like most people using Napster were stealing music. However, to declare a tool such as a backup program as illegal just because some people are misusing it is inane (and probably unconstitutional as well). Otherwise all guns would be illegal, knives, cars, chemicals...and all computers in general for that matter. Why not just outlaw computers? There's people out there using them to copy stuff, right?

As you can clearly see, your arguments, and those of the DMCA make no sense at all. Therefore no one should feel any moral or ethical compunction to abide by them as long as they use such tools conscientiously. Peace.

 

[KAMAZON]

Think of it this way: what happens if you try to "back up" a $20 bill and then use your backup copy? It's the same thing as "backing up" DVD's. You don't have the rights to do this. And even if you did have the rights to make a pure digital copy, you don't have the rights to use the dvd decryption software. If you don't like the law, work to change it...don't just steal.

You are so freaking lame Right Here. "Backing up a $20 bill" is COUNTERFEIT!!! You dumb ass. Backing up a DVD you bought so you don't scratch it is not. Are you REALLY this stupid or are you just pretending?

 

[RightHere]

Originally posted by: BaseGrizzly

He's not being lazy. This is a well known fact in economics: special interests will set policy because there are a few bent on creating a law, and the people it hurts (the general public, us) do not have a group lobbying Congress for this specific issue because the opportunity cost is too high.

And let's be serious here, even with the entire FatWallet forums writing to their Congressmen, there won't be enough public opinion to make a difference. The Congressman will pocket the money from the lobbyists for their campaign funds and will continue to gain votes from those voters who have still never heard of the DMCA.

I've never heard of this "well known economic fact". I'm pretty sure you just made it up. 90% of the statistics on the internet are bogus you know.

If you don't like the way the system works, you have 2 options:
1) DO SOMETHING to change it.
2) Move to Russia you pinko commie!

People in power typically only care about one thing, and that's staying in power. They need money to help them get votes, but ultimately it's votes that count most. You *absolutely* can make a difference if you want to. Enlist your friends/family and have them call. Use webboards like this one to get the word out. If some senator's office starts getting a couple of calls a week on an issue, they will work to find out more about it. They'll be interested in knowing what your opinion is.

 

[RightHere]

Originally posted by: Overzeetop
Ahhh, if you'd just convinced your congressman to outlaw encryption of data which is sold for consumer use, and asked them to pay for a backbone transplant for Michael Powell at the FCC to force all companies using US broadcast frequencies to allow analog video at the HD source resolution you wouldn't be in this boat.

I don't think there's enough backbone in all of Washington to accomplish this!

Me? I spoke to my US representative, Rick Boucher, in person about this problem and he is in the process of trying to get more consumer-friendly legistaion passed. But he needs help from your representative to get the job done. Yes, I also wrote (snail mail) my senators, both Republicans, who replied that - in effect - that's not what their big dollar lobbiests want, and that I don't reflect the mainstram opinion of Virginians, so they won't be doing anything about it.

I'll admit that I'm not doing anything about this one yet. I do care about it, but there are other things I care more about right now. This whole copy protection thing is an incredibly complex issue. I'm sure Hollywood did that on purpose so we wouldn't know WTF we should ask for.

I'll likely even use +RW discs to my movies to "lend" to family members, since I don't trust them with my originals.

Thief.

 

[RightHere]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
So be it then. I'm in violation of a lot of things, the DMCA the least moralistic of them. I almost never drive the speed limit. I jay-walk constantly. And I have ripped all the tags off of my mattresses a long, long time ago. Just call me bad-ass #1.

The DMCA isn't a set of guidelines or morals. It is a federal law. Breaking it carries stiff penalties (far worse than the penalties for the other actions you describe).

I am not arguing that piracy is bad. I am arguing the definition of piracy. Your definition (and ethics, apparently) has been purchased through expensive lobbying campaigns and corrupt politicians by special interest groups. Mine I have based on my own, and society's, ethics and principles. To me piracy is not, and never will be, copying a music cd that I own so that I can listen to it in my MP3 player. No law will ever change that. And there will always be a way for me to do that, illegally or not. And as long as there remains a way I will do my utmost to make sure that it is available to everyone else as well...just on principles. If there is not, then I would stop buying music...and I know most people would as well.

There are federal laws defining piracy. It's not up to you to define it.

And my ethics haven't been purchased by anyone. I respect the law. You are saying that your own morals state that stealing is ok. That's fine, but I'd really call that a lack of morals. And to say that your views are in line with those of "society" is simply crazy. The vast majority of "society" does not condone stealing.

Now for the shocker...I actually agree with you. Most people are probably using those "backup" programs to illegally copy protected materials either for sale or for personal use of materials that they do not own - just like most people using Napster were stealing music. However, to declare a tool such as a backup program as illegal just because some people are misusing it is inane (and probably unconstitutional as well). Otherwise all guns would be illegal, knives, cars, chemicals...and all computers in general for that matter. Why not just outlaw computers? There's people out there using them to copy stuff, right?

A program that allows you to back up personal files to a DVD is not illegal. A program that breaks a private, strictly controlled/licensed protocol and decrypts DVD's IS illegal. My understanding of these tools is that they don't place any limits on the numbers of copies you can make of a particular piece of media. Something like that should absolutely continue to be illegal. If the companies that own these copyrights can't be guaranteed a way to get a return on their investment, they'll stop making movies/music/software. That is why piracy must be stopped. Software can be created that makes both sides happy. But they have to fight the big fires first, and try to kill all of these illegal programs before things get out of control. Your comparison to guns is an interesting one. You'll notice that there are some pretty heavy restrictions on gun ownership. Do you think that computer owners should be forced to go through the same sort of background checks to get a license to use a program like this?

As you can clearly see, your arguments, and those of the DMCA make no sense at all. Therefore no one should feel any moral or ethical compunction to abide by them as long as they use such tools conscientiously. Peace.

My arguments make sense. And you say you agree anyway, so now you're really confusing me. It doesn't matter if the DMCA makes sense or not. It is the law. There are a lot of stupid laws. But you still have to respect it. Otherwise, there is no society anymore.

 

[FreakyGuy]

Personally I don't think Decrypting a DVD should be illegal. Say your friend wants to borrow your favorite DVD but he has lots of kids who sratch his dvd's so you lend him a backup on CDR/DVD. Discs are hella cheaper than the actual DvD. Plus do you think that people who copied VHS put a dent in the aftermarket for originals? Most people IMHO would prefer original recordings, but unforseen circumstances must be recognized.

 

[RightHere]

Originally posted by: FreakyGuy
Personally I don't think Decrypting a DVD should be illegal. Say your friend wants to borrow your favorite DVD but he has lots of kids who sratch his dvd's so you lend him a backup on CDR/DVD. Discs are hella cheaper than the actual DvD. Plus do you think that people who copied VHS put a dent in the aftermarket for originals? Most people IMHO would prefer original recordings, but unforseen circumstances must be recognized.

If you're afraid, you need to send your friend to Blockbuster then. Yes, I do think that people that copied movies onto VHS put a dent in the market. Obviously with true digital copies, that is much more of a concern.

In the event of "unforseen circumstances" destroying your favorite out of print DVD, use Ebay.

 

[The Sauce]

And my ethics haven't been purchased by anyone. I respect the law. You are saying that your own morals state that stealing is ok. That's fine, but I'd really call that a lack of morals. And to say that your views are in line with those of "society" is simply crazy. The vast majority of "society" does not condone stealing.

Again, that is your definition of stealing - which has only become law through extensive bribery and financial coersion by special interest groups (i.e. the media giants). If you use such processes to define your ethics, then I believe it is in fact you who is severely morally impoverished. Let's use another example: If health insurance companies lobbied congress to make it illegal to have more than 2 children, requiring any subsequent children be aborted, and your wife was pregnant with her third, would you still be able to claim moral superiority for abiding by the law? How is this any different? Sure it is a more dramatic scenario but, religious ideology aside, essentially it is an analogous example of a special interest group effecting a law to improve its own bottom line at the expense of society without regard for societal norms and standards.
As such I find it not only ethically correct, but my moral obligation to disobey the "law" in this regard. While you, in effect, are arguing the position of the Nazis - it is law, therefore we must do it. Would you take your wife to the abortion clinic while waiting for legislative reform to occur? Would you still be sending letters to your congressman as you watched the clinic suck out the fetus? I use this ridiculous example only to illustrate the fact that you not only "respect" the law, you are a slave to it - as you do not seem consider the economical forces, politics and principles of the issues, but blindly follow it without thought. That, in my opinion, is reprehensible. You clearly fancy yourself a "right thinker." But until corporations officially run America and own me, I consider it my obligation to personally critically and morally evaluate the manner in which I run my life without regard to the corrupt policies of the mega-corporations.

It doesn't matter if the DMCA makes sense or not. It is the law. There are a lot of stupid laws. But you still have to respect it. Otherwise, there is no society anymore.

No, I don't (see above). And neither should any other free thinking American. I like to think that I would not have injected gasoline into Jewish prisoners during WW2 as well (were I a Nazi). I believe I answer to a higher moral than the $ of corporations buying public policy. That moral is not compromised by having a copy of my favorite purchased CD in my living room CD player and my MP3 player at the same time. You are right, the majority of Americans disagree with stealing, but the majority of Americans do not consider this to be stealing - irrespective of the corporate America's ability to influence public policy. (If you wish, I can prove that last point).

 

[nolovenohope]

Originally posted by: Overzeetop

edit...I should have added - I use my Optowrite burner ($133 from livewarehouse - good experience, not sure of the price now) to back up my company's data primarily. However, I plan on using it to make "Backup" copies of my Disney VHS tapes - many of which are out of print, including Song of the South - so that they don't degrade any further and so I can access them from my DVD jukebox. Heck, I may even borrow a DVD of those movies so my backup of the material is the quality I had when the tape was new. I'll likely even use +RW discs to my movies to "lend" to family members, since I don't trust them with my originals.

How is this? From the Optowrite thread, it appears the thing is a piece of crap in getting other players to play the burned media.

 

[RightHere]

Originally posted by: Snatchface
Again, that is your definition of stealing - which has only become law through extensive bribery and financial coersion by special interest groups (i.e. the media giants).

It's a law. You are breaking it. You are a thief. It is indeed that black and white.

Let's use another example: If health insurance companies lobbied congress to make it illegal to have more than 2 children, requiring any subsequent children be aborted, and your wife was pregnant with her third, would you still be able to claim moral superiority for abiding by the law? How is this any different?

This is an absolutely ridiculous scenario. And as stupid as it is, I believe there were still parts of China where they had a similar law. You were limited to the number of girls in the family. I believe the punishments were as severe as you suggest. (See, you DO think like a commie)

Sure it is a more dramatic scenario but, religious ideology aside, essentially it is an analogous example of a special interest group effecting a law to improve its own bottom line at the expense of society without regard for societal norms and standards.

If a law could be forced through the system, I would respect it or GTFO of the country.

As such I find it not only ethically correct, but my moral obligation to disobey the "law" in this regard.

Only hippies have "moral obligations". You are breaking the law. You are a thief.

While you, in effect, are arguing the position of the Nazis - it is law, therefore we must do it. Would you take your wife to the abortion clinic while waiting for legislative reform to occur?

Hmmm...first you compare me to someone that would kill babies, now the Nazis. You are a real piece of work. I believe in our form of government. That's why I respect the law. Leaving religion out of the discussion, if this was the law and we both knew this and didn't take the proper precautions after having a second child, then I would absolutely face what was coming to me.

Would you still be sending letters to your congressman as you watched the clinic suck out the fetus? I use this ridiculous example only to illustrate the fact that you not only "respect" the law, you are a slave to it - as you do not seem consider the economical forces, politics and principles of the issues, but blindly follow it without thought.

I'm not a slave to the law. I told you how to fight laws you don't believe in. You chose to ignore the suggestion and make up some completely insane stories in an attempt to justify to yourself that it's ok to steal. You are a thief.

That, in my opinion, is reprehensible. You clearly fancy yourself a "right thinker." But until corporations officially run America and own me, I consider it my obligation to personally critically and morally evaluate the manner in which I run my life without regard to the corrupt policies of the mega-corporations.

So you then don't feel that copyright owners should be fairly compensated for their work?

And neither should any other free thinking American. I like to think that I would not have injected gasoline into Jewish prisoners during WW2 as well (were I a Nazi). I believe I answer to a higher moral than the $ of corporations buying public policy. That moral is not compromised by having a copy of my favorite purchased CD in my living room CD player and my MP3 player at the same time. You are right, the majority of Americans disagree with stealing, but the majority of Americans do not consider this to be stealing - irrespective of the corporate America's ability to influence public policy. (If you wish, I can prove that last point).

I'm sure many people would be offended by you comparing a life and death struggle to your desire to "backup" (aka make a copy for both of your friends) your DVD collection. You have picked such a ridiculous scenario that it is impossible to compare the two. If you can't see that being morally correct and saving lives in concentration camps is vastly different from stealing music/movies just because YOU don't think it's a problem, then nobody can help you. You clearly have a very busted sense of right and wrong.

 

[Lestan]

Dear Forum Mod,

I came to this thread hoping to read about the ND-1300A, and instead I am treated to a healthy dose of RightHere's hippocracy. If I honestly cared what his/her narrow mind thought about piracy I still wouldn't want to see it on a hot deals forum.

So can you banish him or her or delete the offensive posts so I can get back to deciding between an ND-1300A or the Optorite drive which I will use for whatever purpose I damn well please in this free country I thought I lived in?

Thank you.

 

[RightHere]

Originally posted by: Lestan
I came to this thread hoping to read about the ND-1300A, and instead I am treated to a healthy dose of RightHere's hippocracy. If I honestly cared what his/her narrow mind thought about piracy I still wouldn't want to see it on a hot deals forum.

Blame the other guy. He posted his drivel about how stealing isn't morally wrong. I posted on the thread because there was a discussion about illegal activity. Unless AT wants to be associated w/ crap like that, they should moderate the boards a little more heavily. BTW, the word you are searching for is "hypocrisy". Please show me where I've acted in that way. I've been pretty consistent with the message of "this is stealing".

So can you banish him or her or delete the offensive posts so I can get back to deciding between an ND-1300A or the Optorite drive which I will use for whatever purpose I damn well please in this free country I thought I lived in?

Please point me to something I've posted in this thread that offends you. It is a free country, which allows me to post my thoughts. Thanks for supporting me. And while it IS a free country, that doesn't mean that all property belongs to the people or that all property should be free.

 

[Lestan]

Originally posted by: RightHere BTW, the word you are searching for is "hypocrisy".

Funny that you should know the correct spelling of that word.

Originally posted by: RightHere Please point me to something I've posted in this thread that offends you. It is a free country, which allows me to post my thoughts.

Sorry bud, that's where you are wrong. You do not have the freedom to post your thoughts here on the ANANDTECH Hot Deals Forum. These boards are private property owned by Anand, and there are specific RULES governing these boards, one of which you are breaking right now. So there is an example of your HYPOCRISY and something that offends me. Two birds with one stone, now that's a hot deal.

 

[The Sauce]

Hey guys, as the OP I humbly request that we cease and desist in this debate about politics and ethics. I think it's been milked for all it's worth and now we're just sucking bandwidth. If you wan't we can start up a thread in OT on this but please, let's keep it to purchasing cheap DVD burners for now.

Update - Ok for anyone who wishes to continue this discussion in the correct forum - link.

 

[Bulk Beef]

"I" have no "qualms" about "backing up" anything "I've" "purchased".

Stick that in your "pipe" and "smoke" it.

 

[dquan97]

What do you guys think -- Do the 4x burners from Optorite > NEC?