Updates From the Left: Matt Taibi reviews "Shattered", and Matt Stoller tweets about Obama & Yachts.

[Blackjack200]

Matt Taibbi reviews "Shattered" the new book on Clinton's campaign:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-that-brutalizes-the-clinton-campaign-w477978

There's some interesting stuff here. Focuses on the campaign's inability to articulate why Clinton was even running, Clinton's paranoia, and their perception of the reasons that they lost in 2008.

Matt Stoller is also unimpressed by President Obama's time spent on billionaire yachts since the presidency:
https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/855401395805184000

Obama on yachts isn't the focus of his thread, but it's used as an example of the rift between the progressive identity of the party, and the neoliberal reality, and how that was a factor in Trump's election.

Stoller is a trust fund tankie, no getting around that, but he writes some compelling things.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Matt Taibbi reviews "Shattered" the new book on Clinton's campaign:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-that-brutalizes-the-clinton-campaign-w477978

There's some interesting stuff here. Focuses on the campaign's inability to articulate why Clinton was even running, Clinton's paranoia, and their perception of the reasons that they lost in 2008.

Matt Stoller is also unimpressed by President Obama's time spent on billionaire yachts since the presidency:
https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/855401395805184000

Obama on yachts isn't the focus of his thread, but it's used as an example of the rift between the progressive identity of the party, and the neoliberal reality, and how that was a factor in Trump's election.

Stoller is a trust fund tankie, no getting around that, but he writes some compelling things.

I think the big takeaway from these events that people really need to focus on is these are not normal people. Anyone who's at the point of potentially running for election is not 'one of us', is not 'for the people', and does not have our interests at heart. There was likely a time when this was true, at minimum at the founding of our nation, but that time has long passed. Now, I'm not saying that strictly speaking, we should have a 'normal person' in the white house, just that the notion of a president (during or after) doing 'stuff the rest of us do' is an illusion. It's normal for people like this to be on billionaire yachts, writing book deals worth millions, running charities worth billions, etc.

 

[senseamp]

Who is Matt Stoller?

 

[Blackjack200]

Who is Matt Stoller?

Fellow here: https://www.newamerica.org/open-markets/

 

[JSt0rm]

I think the big takeaway from these events that people really need to focus on is these are not normal people. Anyone who's at the point of potentially running for election is not 'one of us', is not 'for the people', and does not have our interests at heart. There was likely a time when this was true, at minimum at the founding of our nation, but that time has long passed. Now, I'm not saying that strictly speaking, we should have a 'normal person' in the white house, just that the notion of a president (during or after) doing 'stuff the rest of us do' is an illusion. It's normal for people like this to be on billionaire yachts, writing book deals worth millions, running charities worth billions, etc.

american exceptionalism is a real thing. The quivering masses generate 1 per 1 million or so. They are not normal but they are american as apple pie. Anyone who comes here or is born here can reach exceptional heights. They shouldn't be looked down on for it.

 

[senseamp]

Fellow here: https://www.newamerica.org/open-markets/

Here are yachts of people paying his salary:

When is he planning to resign?

 

[Blackjack200]

Here are yachts of people paying his salary:

When is he planning to resign?

To be sure, it tarnishes the message. I still thought it was worth posting since it tied the ideas in my other thread to the larger problem with the democratic party, namely the alienation from true progressives.

It's why I had this disclaimer:

Stoller is a trust fund tankie, no getting around that, but he writes some compelling things.

 

[SViscusi]

Matt Taibbi reviews "Shattered" the new book on Clinton's campaign:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-that-brutalizes-the-clinton-campaign-w477978

There's some interesting stuff here. Focuses on the campaign's inability to articulate why Clinton was even running, Clinton's paranoia, and their perception of the reasons that they lost in 2008.

Matt Stoller is also unimpressed by President Obama's time spent on billionaire yachts since the presidency:
https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/855401395805184000

Obama on yachts isn't the focus of his thread, but it's used as an example of the rift between the progressive identity of the party, and the neoliberal reality, and how that was a factor in Trump's election.

Stoller is a trust fund tankie, no getting around that, but he writes some compelling things.

Stoller hates Obama more than anyone on the right ever did. It goes back to the Lieberman/Lamont primary where Obama was neutral. He's so deranged that he has attacked government employees for working for him.

 

[senseamp]

To be sure, it tarnishes the message. I still thought it was worth posting since it tied the ideas in my other thread to the larger problem with the democratic party, namely the alienation from true progressives.

It's why I had this disclaimer:

Which true progressives care that Obama is out windsurfing on some private island? He is not president anymore, and he raised capital gains taxes 60% on the very people he is windsurfing with, so it's not like he gave up progressive values to get there.

 

[fskimospy]

I think the big takeaway from these events that people really need to focus on is these are not normal people. Anyone who's at the point of potentially running for election is not 'one of us', is not 'for the people', and does not have our interests at heart. There was likely a time when this was true, at minimum at the founding of our nation, but that time has long passed. Now, I'm not saying that strictly speaking, we should have a 'normal person' in the white house, just that the notion of a president (during or after) doing 'stuff the rest of us do' is an illusion. It's normal for people like this to be on billionaire yachts, writing book deals worth millions, running charities worth billions, etc.

There was never a time when the president was a 'normal person'. If anything the presidents of modern times are on average more 'normal' than they were at the time of the founding. Presidents around the time of the founding tended to be rich landowners. (And slaveowners!)There of course have been a few presidents of modest means like Lincoln and Truman but they are definitely the huge exception.

It seems odd to expect that the most powerful person on the planet would be a normal person anyway.

 

[fskimospy]

It's also important to point out that people who are pointing to Obama's wealth and the fact that he is hanging out with other wealthy people are simply shooting democrats in the foot as they are playing directly into conservative stereotypes about liberals.

Obama is basically the epitome of the American dream. He came from a normal background and through superior ability and work became powerful and wealthy. This is something to aspire to, not denigrate. Whether you are progressive or not has literally nothing to do with your wealth or your friends, it has to do with your policies.

 

[HomerJS]

When someone can point to a policy Obama enacted that benefitted people like Geffen and against the middle class, I'll give 2 shits

 

[dank69]

Which true progressives care that Obama is out windsurfing on some private island? He is not president anymore, and he raised capital gains taxes 60% on the very people he is windsurfing with, so it's not like he gave up progressive values to get there.

You are looking at the issue from a rational, informed perspective, instead of the way 99% of the population looks at it. To the 99%, everything is pure optics. Obama hanging out with rich people? Must be fucking over the normal people. Raised capital gains 60%? I don't know what that is, how it relates to the issue, and I can't even calculate 60% of anything even with a calculator. It's fucking common sense that Democrats are every bit as corrupt as Republicans and you're an idiot for thinking otherwise. No go away, you're bothering me and you already made me miss the first five minutes of the Kardashians.

 

[pauldun170]

Another thread criticizing an ex president of the United States for what he does on vacation right after leaving office?

I'd rather focus on what the current President does on vacation while in office.

 

[Genx87]

Matt Taibbi reviews "Shattered" the new book on Clinton's campaign:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...-that-brutalizes-the-clinton-campaign-w477978

There's some interesting stuff here. Focuses on the campaign's inability to articulate why Clinton was even running, Clinton's paranoia, and their perception of the reasons that they lost in 2008.

Matt Stoller is also unimpressed by President Obama's time spent on billionaire yachts since the presidency:
https://twitter.com/matthewstoller/status/855401395805184000

Obama on yachts isn't the focus of his thread, but it's used as an example of the rift between the progressive identity of the party, and the neoliberal reality, and how that was a factor in Trump's election.

Stoller is a trust fund tankie, no getting around that, but he writes some compelling things.

It is an example of the rift between the corporatism and the progressive wing of the party.

 

[Blackjack200]

It's also important to point out that people who are pointing to Obama's wealth and the fact that he is hanging out with other wealthy people are simply shooting democrats in the foot as they are playing directly into conservative stereotypes about liberals.

Wait, the people pointing it out are playing into the liberal stereotypes, or the behavior itself is playing into those stereotypes?

Pointing them out is hoping that they learn from it and improve.

Obama is basically the epitome of the American dream. He came from a normal background and through superior ability and work became powerful and wealthy. This is something to aspire to, not denigrate. Whether you are progressive or not has literally nothing to do with your wealth or your friends, it has to do with your policies.

I think he's an extraordinary individual, but that doesn't place him beyond criticism. If you think concentration of wealth is bad, then don't hang out with those people. I don't understand what's so difficult about that idea.

 

[Blackjack200]

When someone can point to a policy Obama enacted that benefitted people like Geffen and against the middle class, I'll give 2 shits

Geffen is a record company executive. The trade deals that Obama pushed for absolutely would have benefited Geffen through their copyright provisions.

 

[fskimospy]

Wait, the people pointing it out are playing into the liberal stereotypes, or the behavior itself is playing into those stereotypes?

Pointing them out is hoping that they learn from it and improve.

The people pointing it out are playing into the liberal stereotypes as he's doing nothing wrong. The idea that hanging out with wealthy people is somehow inherently bad or non-progressive is an absurd idea that liberals need to distance themselves from as much as possible. If he were to 'improve' in the way I think you are suggesting that would be a large step backwards and a serious blow to progressive/liberal ideals.

I think he's an extraordinary individual, but that doesn't place him beyond criticism. If you think concentration of wealth is bad, then don't hang out with those people. I don't understand what's so difficult about that idea.

Of course he isn't beyond criticism. I also cannot think of any logical reason why if you think excessive concentration of wealth is bad that you shouldn't hang out with wealthy people. Attempting to amass wealth is a personal virtue. Having a society where wealth becomes excessively concentrated is a public policy failure. Denigrating or refusing to associate with people who have become wealthy is playing into the hands of conservatives.

 

[desura]

What is wrong with it being her turn? That is why I voted for her. I don't need drama and emoting in politics. The federal government is a utility, it is not some religious pedestal.

People need to realize there are no guarantees in life.

 

[senseamp]

Geffen is a record company executive. The trade deals that Obama pushed for absolutely would have benefited Geffen through their copyright provisions.

How is that against the middle class? Are you saying US middle class lost out because other countries have to respect US copyright?

 

[Blackjack200]

The people pointing it out are playing into the liberal stereotypes as he's doing nothing wrong. The idea that hanging out with wealthy people is somehow inherently bad or non-progressive is an absurd idea that liberals need to distance themselves from as much as possible. If he were to 'improve' in the way I think you are suggesting that would be a large step backwards and a serious blow to progressive/liberal ideals.

Your ideas are clear and consistent but I just don't think I agree with them anymore. And let's be precise, he's not just hanging out with wealthy people, he's engaging in conspicuous consumption and Instagramming it for everyone to see. At a time when wealth concentration is eroding social stability. You don't see it that way?

Of course he isn't beyond criticism. I also cannot think of any logical reason why if you think excessive concentration of wealth is bad that you shouldn't hang out with wealthy people. Attempting to amass wealth is a personal virtue. Having a society where wealth becomes excessively concentrated is a public policy failure. Denigrating or refusing to associate with people who have become wealthy is playing into the hands of conservatives.

That's where I've changed. I don't see attempting to amass wealth as a personal virtue anymore.

 

[Blackjack200]

How is that against the middle class? Are you saying US middle class lost out because other countries have to respect US copyright?

Because these trade deals suck for American workers.
http://carnegieendowment.org/chinafinancialmarkets/67867

 

[fskimospy]

Your ideas are clear and consistent but I just don't think I agree with them anymore. And let's be precise, he's not just hanging out with wealthy people, he's engaging in conspicuous consumption and Instagramming it for everyone to see. At a time when wealth concentration is eroding social stability. You don't see it that way?

I don't think that Obama's progressivism or commitment to progressive values hinges on what he posts on instagram. As for how progressive Obama is he seems to be solidly progressive but I'm sure there are plenty of Democrats to his left. The difference is that there have been few more effective vehicles for progressive values than Obama. I'll take that any day.

As for not agreeing with me, such is life. Although I think you're badly misguided here as a whole I respect your opinion.

That's where I've changed. I don't see attempting to amass wealth as a personal virtue anymore.

I think the personal profit incentive is one of the strongest ones that exists in terms of inspiring people to better society. It would be a shame to lose it.

 

[Blackjack200]

I don't think that Obama's progressivism or commitment to progressive values hinges on what he posts on instagram. As for how progressive Obama is he seems to be solidly progressive but I'm sure there are plenty of Democrats to his left. The difference is that there have been few more effective vehicles for progressive values than Obama. I'll take that any day.

As for not agreeing with me, such is life. Although I think you're badly misguided here as a whole I respect your opinion.

Yeah, I meant more the ideas you're talking about than disagreeing with you specifically, and the only reason I say that is because I absolutely used to share them. I've been searching for answers since November 8th, and I just can't accept what seems to be the party line, that it was Russia/Comey, and the electoral college. For that race to even be close, to me, there must be something deeply wrong with what the party is doing.

And I assure you the respect is mutual.

I think the personal profit incentive is one of the strongest ones that exists in terms of inspiring people to better society. It would be a shame to lose it.

I think we can incent people other ways. A lot of people seem willing to better society without much potential for profit..

 

[1prophet]

I don't think that Obama's progressivism or commitment to progressive values hinges on what he posts on instagram. As for how progressive Obama is he seems to be solidly progressive but I'm sure there are plenty of Democrats to his left. The difference is that there have been few more effective vehicles for progressive values than Obama. I'll take that any day.

As for not agreeing with me, such is life. Although I think you're badly misguided here as a whole I respect your opinion.



I think the personal profit incentive is one of the strongest ones that exists in terms of inspiring people to better society. It would be a shame to lose it.

And this example of twisted mental gymnastics shown here where people claiming to be liberals on one hand while wiping the corporate slop from their chins with the other hand from eating at the same big business PAC pig trough that conservatives indulge in, yet somehow they are supposed to be different;

is the main reason the Democrat party is not taking seriously anymore by the working classes and allows openings for people like Trump to gain a foothold.