Upgrade opinions

[maniacalpha1-1]

I was originally just looking at upgrading my video card, but I *may* get funding that allows for more than that. Even if the funding falls through, I always have fun browsing and discussing PC parts, so here goes:

My current system is:
1. Antec 300 case, stock, no additional customization, so it has 2 front HDD bay fans, top fan, open grille/fan bay on side for a fan but I did not install one, and rear fan.
2. Antec Earthwatts 650 PSU
3. Gigabyte GA MA770t-ud3p motherboard
4. AMD Phenom II X4 925 @2.8 ghz CPU with stock heatsink and fan
5. G.Skill 4 X 2 GB DDR3 1333(PC 10666) ram
6. Radeon HD 4850 GPU
7. Western Digital Caviar Blue 320GB HD
8. Windows 7 64 bit one shot
9. Samsung Syncmaster 2232bw monitor max resolution 1680X1050

Now, I want to retain the same case, PSU, motherboard, both because I don't want to do that much installation work and also because I bought the 1 shot windows tied to your mother board. That leaves the following things I could upgrade:
1. RAM - I assume there is little to no appreciable performance from going to higher RAM speed? I think I have the highest my mobo is rated for anyway, not sure.
2. GPU - If full funding becomes a reality I was thinking a GTX 570(I would still not be able to afford a GTX580 unless that was all I got). I know at 1680X1050 a 570 would be a bit more than required, but it should keep me competitive on frame rates for a couple of years...
The REAL questions are 3 and 4:
3. Hard Drive: Is there any appreciable gaming reason to go with an SSD? I mean, I'm sure it will help games load faster, but if I can stomach a few seconds more load time, SSDs don't provide any improvements within the games themselves, do they? And I mean multiplayer games like BC2, I realize SSDs might help with load times in single player games like Dragon Age. If the multiplayer gaming advantages of an SSD are not that great I could skip it.
4. CPU: I presume it would be better to save some money and get a higher clockrate quad core than pay a lot more to get a 6 core? Which is to say, games aren't even optimized for quadcores yet, let alone bother with 6 cores, they would respond better to a higher clockrate than more cores?

So basically, in order of importance, my upgrades would be
1. GTS 570
2. AMD 965 @3.4ghz BE CPU(would love for someone to tell me my 925 at 2.8ghz won't be a bottleneck, but I believe that may be wishful thinking).
3. a 64 GB SSD for windows and primary games, IF an SSD provides sufficient benefits to multiplayer games.
Thoughts?
Secondary questions are:
1. Is the Antec 300's stock cooling ability good enough for that? GTX 570 runs cool, so that and minor OC'ed 965 with stock heatsink and fan should be fine?
2. I read that my PSU gives 45 amps and the GTX 570's minimum amps to POST is 35...so is 10 amps cushion plenty for actual use and other components?

 

[MisterDonut]

Your system is fine. Only parts I would upgrade are the GPU and HDD. You can get a faster drive like this one.

Other upgrades would depend on how much you have to spend. At 1680x1050, see if you can't find a deal on a 5870 (~$200 last week)/5850 (~$170). Both of those are probably the fastest cards for your $$. Otherwise the newer 570 is faster, but more expensive.

SSD's are nice and a huge upgrade from the slower one you use now, but again, depending on how much you spend, you should upgrade the GPU before the HDD if you can't afford to get both. If you spend some time saving more, you might have enough when SF-2000/G3 hits the market. Otherwise, something with an SF-1200 controller is a good choice. I prefer the Corsair Force, but they're pretty much all the same. I just hear fewer problems with the Force.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

As of right now I have up to $350 to spend, which is the price of a 570, and as you might guess, would leave me without money for games until more comes in. So, if no additional funding comes in, I will have decide between a 570 and no games for a while, or something like a 6870 and at least I can buy Dragon Age 2 and one other(or several cheap ones). Good thing about the 570 is at least for now, Newegg is giving you Just Cause 2 and Mafia 2 which look like games I would try, so that would make it easier to swallow if I went that route.

If I get additional funds, I'd have about $700 total to spend. That would definitely allow for a GTX 570, and 64GB SSDs range from $120ish to $180ish.

Here's one at Newegg for $122, it's the highest customer rated one of all the 64GBs, too:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148357

If I can skip the processor upgrade that would be great!

I do have a question about changing HDD, regardless of whether to a SSD or a different HDD. Although I did build my PC, I've never changed hard drives before, can I just plug in the additional SSD/HDD and not unplug the old one and install windows to the new one, and leave the old one as is, or do you need to wipe the old one? As long as you choose to boot from the new drive, the old one will act not much differently than a plugged in flash drive, even though it has a windows install on it, right?

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

One other dumb question too, since SSDs are so small, do they come with accessories to make them fit in a full HDD bay?

 

[mfenn]

As of right now I have up to $350 to spend, which is the price of a 570, and as you might guess, would leave me without money for games until more comes in. So, if no additional funding comes in, I will have decide between a 570 and no games for a while, or something like a 6870 and at least I can buy Dragon Age 2 and one other(or several cheap ones). Good thing about the 570 is at least for now, Newegg is giving you Just Cause 2 and Mafia 2 which look like games I would try, so that would make it easier to swallow if I went that route.

If I get additional funds, I'd have about $700 total to spend. That would definitely allow for a GTX 570, and 64GB SSDs range from $120ish to $180ish.

Sounds like a plan.

Here's one at Newegg for $122, it's the highest customer rated one of all the 64GBs, too:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148357

First a general thought on SSDs: Gaming is one of the least compelling reasons to get an SSD. The fact that they make general usage lightning fast is the most compelling. Trust me, you don't realize just how unbearably slow HDDs are until you've used an SSD. Let's do an experiment. Close Firefox, then open it again. See how long that took? Mine would have popped open instantly because I have an SSD.

Regarding your specific choice, I'd probably get a Sandforce over the C300, but that's really just picking nits.

If I can skip the processor upgrade that would be great!

You should be able to.

I do have a question about changing HDD, regardless of whether to a SSD or a different HDD. Although I did build my PC, I've never changed hard drives before, can I just plug in the additional SSD/HDD and not unplug the old one and install windows to the new one, and leave the old one as is, or do you need to wipe the old one? As long as you choose to boot from the new drive, the old one will act not much differently than a plugged in flash drive, even though it has a windows install on it, right?

That is correct. One thing that I would suggest is that you temporarily unplug the original HDD while you install Windows on the new SSD. That way, the installer won't try to reuse the bootloader from the HDD. If it does reuse the bootloader, your Windows install will be broken if you ever remove/format your original drive! You can replug your original drive after Windows is installed, just make sure that you've set your BIOS boot priority up such that the SSD is higher in the list.

One other dumb question too, since SSDs are so small, do they come with accessories to make them fit in a full HDD bay?

Depends on the drive. Some come with a 2.5" to 3.5" adapter, some don't. Click on Newegg's photo gallery to be sure.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

I can't help but notice that 32 GB SSDs are roughly half the price of that 60GB one you linked....RAID setup might be too advanced for me, but is there any benefit from RAID SSD? Or is that like going from instant to slightly more instant, lol?

 

[mnewsham]

I can't help but notice that 32 GB SSDs are roughly half the price of that 60GB one you linked....RAID setup might be too advanced for me, but is there any benefit from RAID SSD? Or is that like going from instant to slightly more instant, lol?

I did this once just to see what it would do to performance, there WAS a notable increase in normal usage, but after two days i missed the ssd in my other computer so much i took it back out, it wasn't as big a jump from HDD to SSD was for me.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

I almost forgot. Do all SSDs now have TRIM? Which is that thing that prevents them from becoming inefficient or something over time? (I know that's a poor way of describing it but it's been 18 months since I spent much time looking up SSDs)

 

[mfenn]

I can't help but notice that 32 GB SSDs are roughly half the price of that 60GB one you linked....RAID setup might be too advanced for me, but is there any benefit from RAID SSD? Or is that like going from instant to slightly more instant, lol?

Yeah, it is faster; no, I wouldn't want the complexity.

I almost forgot. Do all SSDs now have TRIM? Which is that thing that prevents them from becoming inefficient or something over time? (I know that's a poor way of describing it but it's been 18 months since I spent much time looking up SSDs)

Anything you get nowadays is going to support TRIM.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

I was looking further at SSDs and according to the below linked review, a Kingston SNV425-S2 64 GB SSD benchmarks at 13 seconds Win 7 boot time.
http://www.techspot.com/review/313-budget-ssd-roundup/page11.html

I found a Kingston SNV425-S2 128 GB SSD for $199.99 on Newegg, but I cannot find any benchmarks for it, so is it safe to assume that if the same series' 64 GB is that fast, that the 128 GB will as well?

I'm zeroing in on the Kingston because it's the only one I can find benchmarks for without googling all night long(doesn't seem that there are Windows loading time benchmarks that plentiful to be found for the full spectrum of SSDs). and $200 doesn't seem that bad for 128 GB.

 

[mfenn]

I was looking further at SSDs and according to the below linked review, a Kingston SNV425-S2 64 GB SSD benchmarks at 13 seconds Win 7 boot time.
http://www.techspot.com/review/313-budget-ssd-roundup/page11.html

I found a Kingston SNV425-S2 128 GB SSD for $199.99 on Newegg, but I cannot find any benchmarks for it, so is it safe to assume that if the same series' 64 GB is that fast, that the 128 GB will as well?

I'm zeroing in on the Kingston because it's the only one I can find benchmarks for without googling all night long(doesn't seem that there are Windows loading time benchmarks that plentiful to be found for the full spectrum of SSDs). and $200 doesn't seem that bad for 128 GB.

Windows boot time doesn't really matter. There are much better measures of SSD performance. I'd get something Sandforce based like the Corsair Force or OCZ Vertex 2 instead of relying on a Toshiba controller.

Oh, and all the SSD benchmarks that you will ever need are right here on this very site!

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Now that you mention it, I did have a chance to browse more on Newegg and this one seems good: OCZ Vertex 2 90GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-601-_-Product , the 90GB version of the one you linked above, at the right price point...

Which of the Anandtech bench bechmarks are the best 2 or 3 to look at if not direct marks like win loading time?

Here is OCZ Vertex 2 128GB vs a Kingston V+ 128 on the bench:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/152?vs=141


I'm guessing Random Read and uh...PC Mark Vantage Gaming Suite scores?

 

[mfenn]

Now that you mention it, I did have a chance to browse more on Newegg and this one seems good: OCZ Vertex 2 90GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-601-_-Product , the 90GB version of the one you linked above, at the right price point...
/QUOTE]

Yeah, the 90GB is good too. It just depends on how much capacity that you need.

Which of the Anandtech bench bechmarks are the best 2 or 3 to look at if not direct marks like win loading time?

Here is OCZ Vertex 2 128GB vs a Kingston V+ 128 on the bench:
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/Product/152?vs=141


I'm guessing Random Read and uh...PC Mark Vantage Gaming Suite scores?

My top 3 would be Random Read, Random Write, Sequential Write (in that order). As you can see, the Kingston really falls all over itself in the random benchmarks.

 

[fffblackmage]

Windows boot time doesn't really matter. There are much better measures of SSD performance. I'd get something Sandforce based like the Corsair Force or OCZ Vertex 2 instead of relying on a Toshiba controller.

Oh, and all the SSD benchmarks that you will ever need are right here on this very site!

My top 3 would be Random Read, Random Write, Sequential Write (in that order). As you can see, the Kingston really falls all over itself in the random benchmarks.

+1
The Crucial C300 would be a great alternative to Sandforce-based SSDs, if it just didn't cost so much.

Now that you mention it, I did have a chance to browse more on Newegg and this one seems good: OCZ Vertex 2 90GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-601-_-Product , the 90GB version of the one you linked above, at the right price point...

You might as well pay a few extra bucks for the 120GB. Comes out cheaper per GB and the rebate only makes it better.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

What do you guys think of http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-883-_-Product ? Especially given the 18% 1 2 and 3 star ratings on there due to DOAs. Given that the 5870 is an out production card and they are reaching the end of stocks, could they be pushing out RMAed cards at a higher rate? But it's a nice price and nice rebate.

 

[mfenn]

What do you guys think of http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-883-_-Product ? Especially given the 18% 1 2 and 3 star ratings on there due to DOAs. Given that the 5870 is an out production card and they are reaching the end of stocks, could they be pushing out RMAed cards at a higher rate? But it's a nice price and nice rebate.

Seems fine. DOAs happen to even the best cards. As long as you bring it up with Newegg, you won't be out any money, even if they have to give you a refund.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

I got my funding in and I am thinking of getting an Agility 2 3.5" 120GB SSD, and a GTX 570. I'm trying to wait until next week until GTX 560 is out to see what happens to prices, but unless benchmarks show the 560 at surprisingly close to a 570, I think 570 is what I should go for. I don't think the 1GB 6950 and 6970 are coming until mid Feb? I know 570 might be a bit overkill for current games at 1680X1050 but it should provide a measure of future proofing.

So a couple of questions:
1. I'm assuming that's a good SSD choice. By getting the 3.5" version I won't need any adapters, it will screw in secured just like an HDD?
2. I know a GTX 570 is not as hot as a 470, but I have seen some comments about its heat nonetheless. I have the stock Antec 300, with a top fan, rear fan and 2 front fans at the HDD bays. It does have an open grille on the side where an additional fan could be installed, will I be OK at stock cooling with a GTX 570 or should I get that additional fan?

 

[fffblackmage]

I know 570 might be a bit overkill for current games at 1680X1050 but it should provide a measure of future proofing.

That "future-proofing" is not worth it if you don't upgrade to a 1080p monitor. If you end up waiting too long, there will be better graphics cards for the money by then.

So a couple of questions:
1. I'm assuming that's a good SSD choice. By getting the 3.5" version I won't need any adapters, it will screw in secured just like an HDD?

Yes, though some of the 2.5" SSDs come with an adapter anyways.

2. I know a GTX 570 is not as hot as a 470, but I have seen some comments about its heat nonetheless. I have the stock Antec 300, with a top fan, rear fan and 2 front fans at the HDD bays. It does have an open grille on the side where an additional fan could be installed, will I be OK at stock cooling with a GTX 570 or should I get that additional fan?

The Antec 300 has plenty of airflow. It's even less crucial if the GTX570 you're getting exhausts hot air out of the rear of the case.

 

[mfenn]

That "future-proofing" is not worth it if you don't upgrade to a 1080p monitor. If you end up waiting too long, there will be better graphics cards for the money by then.


Yes, though some of the 2.5" SSDs come with an adapter anyways.

The Antec 300 has plenty of airflow. It's even less crucial if the GTX570 you're getting exhausts hot air out of the rear of the case.

:thumbsup: I believe that all GTX 570s are reference (or near-reference) cards with rear exhaust.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

So I ended up ordering a Vertex 2 60GB and an MSI Twin Frozr GTX 560 for 2 day shipping. Somehow I got the 560 in one day, and now I'm stuck waiting til tomorrow to set it up. To do it today I'd have to scrub out the old 4850 drivers, and why bother, when the SSD comes tomorrow I'll end up with a fresh install, might as well wait.

 

[mnewsham]

So I ended up ordering a Vertex 2 60GB and an MSI Twin Frozr GTX 560 for 2 day shipping. Somehow I got the 560 in one day, and now I'm stuck waiting til tomorrow to set it up. To do it today I'd have to scrub out the old 4850 drivers, and why bother, when the SSD comes tomorrow I'll end up with a fresh install, might as well wait.

Good luck

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Well with nothing else to do today I went ahead and installed it. Sure enough since I didn't do drive sweeper, VOIP in BF2 doesn't work, but all will be well tomorrow after fresh install

 

[mfenn]

Well with nothing else to do today I went ahead and installed it. Sure enough since I didn't do drive sweeper, VOIP in BF2 doesn't work, but all will be well tomorrow after fresh install

I'll bet it gives you a nice boost even with messed up drivers though!

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Well, got the SSD installed today, and the windows install was kind of weid, it waited for a long time to say that it was working the install, once it did it was fast. Windows boot up is faster, shut down is closer to instant than I ever saw. Only mistake was going with the 60 GB, I really should have done the 80 GB. I have 16 GB space free left after putting BC2 and BF2 on it. Will 10 GB be enough of a safety buffer? If so, that will give room for one more game, at least of my current games.

I played some Bad Company 2 with my MSI 560, set it up to 1680(max for monitor) and according to fraps it stayed well over 60(like 90) most of the time. That was by watching it in the corner by eye, I don't ever benchmark and don't know how to use the tool. Now, maybe I don't understand what MSAA/CSAA does, but I set it up to 32X CSAA to see if it would jerk FPS down and it didn't.

At any rate this hopefully means I'm good to go for BF3 as long as it's within the increased parameters you'd expect for the next engine up 2 years later(FB 1.5 to 2.0).

 

[mfenn]

I would probably not put any games on a 60GB SSD. Reinstall those to your secondary HDD. 120GB is the minimum size SSD that I would use for OS+games.