Upgraded to 12Gb RAM: Still Stuttering!

OptimumSlinky

Senior member
Nov 3, 2009
345
1
76
So I was getting some stuttering right after respawn in both BF3 and Blacklight Retribution beta. Was led to believe it was the Win7 paging file, and that more RAM would solve the issue. So, bought more RAM, and went from 6Gb to 12Gb. Still getting stuttering issues on respawn. What gives?
 

krylon

Diamond Member
Nov 17, 2001
3,928
4
81
Some more details about your system components would be helpful
 

OptimumSlinky

Senior member
Nov 3, 2009
345
1
76
Sorry. System specs:

i7-930 @ 2.93 Ghz
GA-X58A-UD5 mobo
12Gb PC1333 RAM
Radeon HD 5850 (have two for CrossFire, running single right now)
320 Gb 7200 rpm HDD (looking to add a 480 Gb SDD next month probably)
Win7 Home
 

Termie

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
7,949
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www.techbuyersguru.com
I think I may have been the one that told you to upgrade your memory. But that was specific to your crossfire setup, where 6GB would not be sufficient in BF3. If you are and were getting stuttering with a single card, it was not memory related (wish I'd known you had that problem with a single card before). That startup stuttering is almost definitely your slow hard drive.

Since you have an SSD on your purchase list anyway, I think you'll take care of this problem soon enough. In the meantime, I don't see any reason for you to not be running crossfire, as 5850s scale at 85% in BF3. And now you have the memory for it.

Edit: yup, it was me! Link: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33018293&postcount=7334

Honestly, I think it would be helpful if you put your rig specs in your sig. I would have caught on to the hard drive problem immediately, potentially saving you money. That being said, I'm still of the opinion that buying another 6GB was both a good upgrade for running crossfire and relatively inexpensive, so no big loss there.
 
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Nvidiaguy07

Platinum Member
Feb 22, 2008
2,846
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@Termie

I just bought Battlefield 3 for 30 bucks from origin.com (awesome sale going on BTW) but havent installed yet. My SSD is pretty small, and i usually install games on my larger 1TB 7200RPM drive (all my steam installs go there to, no way to move them without moving all).

Should i even bother trying to install on my 1TB drive, or is the problem so widespread that im just going to be better off putting it on my SSD?
 

Termie

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
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@Termie

I just bought Battlefield 3 for 30 bucks from origin.com (awesome sale going on BTW) but havent installed yet. My SSD is pretty small, and i usually install games on my larger 1TB 7200RPM drive (all my steam installs go there to, no way to move them without moving all).

Should i even bother trying to install on my 1TB drive, or is the problem so widespread that im just going to be better off putting it on my SSD?

You can always try it on the hard drive and see how it affects you. The game takes something like 8-10GB, so it's not the easiest thing to fit on an SSD, but I know it definitely affects load times, and at least some people have had performance issues running it off of a hard drive (like the OP, perhaps).

We had a thread going for a while on BF3 performance. On this page, you can see one user talking about going from 1+ minute loading to instant loading of levels: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2200975&highlight=bf3+ssd&page=13

At least one user on that thread also benefitted greatly from going from 4GB to 8GB ram: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32506591&postcount=269
 
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Nvidiaguy07

Platinum Member
Feb 22, 2008
2,846
4
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Assuming you have enough room for a few games, use SteamMover: http://www.traynier.com/software/steammover

thanks ill try. I really need to do something with my SSD. I want to delete useless crap that im sure i dont use, but i heard its bad to mess with.

Its 80GB (74.4 formatted), and i lose 8GB to pagefile, 7GB to winsxs, 3.2GB on installer? (in the windows folder), 1GB to fifa, an even though its installed on the bigger HD. Can i fix any of this?

I'd like to install most games on it, so they load faster, but im trying to hold off on the upgrade.
 

Termie

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
7,949
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thanks ill try. I really need to do something with my SSD. I want to delete useless crap that im sure i dont use, but i heard its bad to mess with.

Its 80GB (74.4 formatted), and i lose 8GB to pagefile, 7GB to winsxs, 3.2GB on installer? (in the windows folder), 1GB to fifa, an even though its installed on the bigger HD. Can i fix any of this?

I'd like to install most games on it, so they load faster, but im trying to hold off on the upgrade.

Ok, I have an easy fix for you. Reduce your pagefile to 1GB and presto, you have enough space for BF3. You don't need a big pagefile with that much ram.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
So I was getting some stuttering right after respawn in both BF3 and Blacklight Retribution beta. Was led to believe it was the Win7 paging file, and that more RAM would solve the issue. So, bought more RAM, and went from 6Gb to 12Gb. Still getting stuttering issues on respawn. What gives?
If you think it's the page file, have you tried removing it? With 12GB, you have enough RAM to try it, even with games using 6-8GB.
 

Nvidiaguy07

Platinum Member
Feb 22, 2008
2,846
4
81
Ok, I have an easy fix for you. Reduce your pagefile to 1GB and presto, you have enough space for BF3. You don't need a big pagefile with that much ram.

I remember reading somewhere its not a good idea to mess with any of that. ay truth to that?

If you think it's the page file, have you tried removing it? With 12GB, you have enough RAM to try it, even with games using 6-8GB.

Im not the OP, 2 different people.
 

iluvdeal

Golden Member
Nov 22, 1999
1,975
0
76
I remember reading somewhere its not a good idea to mess with any of that. ay truth to that?

There's debate about turning off the pagefile completely. Given the amount of RAM you have, shrinking it to 1GB won't harm your system.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
17,484
33
86
I remember reading somewhere its not a good idea to mess with any of that. ay truth to that?
If you can regularly use most of your RAM, you should keep the page file around. Even without OOM errors or crashes, you will get slower performance due to less RAM being used for file caches over time. If you have GBs to spare, turning it off is perfectly fine, but knowing how much you have to spare is not something you will be able to quickly look up. Using a mechanical HDD, I've kept it off for 4+ years now, and love it. But, you must have significantly more RAM than you can utilize to make it worthwhile. The truth is that knowing how much total memory you need is going to difficult to measure, without logging your peak commit before every shutdown, and Windows is good at making the page file useful when you aren't out of memory.

Making a very small page file is somewhat on the pointless side, IMO. Windows is very much tweaked to use the page file as a backing cache, so that when you don't need to clear out RAM, unchanged pages sit idly in the page file, and when you do, they can be cleared from RAM without writing them to disk. For the worst-case scenario, running out of memory, a small page file will not protect you very much. A large page file gives all the caching benefits, makes memory management easier on the OS*, and protects you from running out of RAM at an inopportune moment. Not that a small page file will never do anything, but it gives you a very small buffer, and you should care about those times when things don't go smoothly.

A 1GB page file will only protect you from (a) rare buggy applications you shouldn't be using, that try to micromanage where their data goes, and (b) running out of memory by a few hundred megabytes. As cheap as RAM is today, if you run out of RAM by less than a few GBs, you need more RAM. If you run out of RAM by a few GBs, be glad you had the page file. If you don't have a page file, be sure that you have at least 50-100% more RAM (safety buffer) than you realistically ever utilize, so that you won't run out of RAM w/o encountering a severe memory leak bug (in which case it's going to crash anyway).

IMO, either get enough RAM that you can turn it off (12+GB for RAM-heavy gaming, FI), let Windows manage it, or make the size fixed and large enough to be useful in the worst cases.


* When allocating virtual memory, it needs some kind of physical memory backing it up. But, it does not need to reside in any actual memory until it is accessed (IoW, a big page file improves performance when you aren't using all your RAM). Many programs like to allocate more than they need to either speed up common tasks (allocating 300MB to open several complex web pages, even if only 50MB are needed right now); become aware of limitations (kind of rare, today, but Windows allows OOM to be trapped and handled, so an app can know how big arbitrary-sized data can get, or use it as an ugly way to kick off garbage collection); or allocate the maximum it may need, and quit before it starts working if there isn't enough.

A page file >=RAM (IE, a safe size for most anybody, but 3-4GB might be enough) allows these situations to be handled much easier, since the OS needs to provide or deny memory based on what it knows it can provide (reserve), yet at the same time, not do anything with it in main RAM until necessary (commit), since actually accessing all the allocated virtual memory right away is a rare case at any given time with any given application, and much an application's initial memory will be idle for most of its lifetime, so is generally safe to clear out as needed (it's still in the page file) (total VM mapped memory can exceed total DRAM+pagefile). By treating it as the rare case, enough physical memory can be available to handle the occasional instance of an application actually trying to use it all at once, so applications for which it is not rare still benefit from this treatment being applied across the board, to all other applications.

If you have enough RAM to effectively make up for necessary page file space, turning it off works fine. If not, or if an OOM error could cost you money, realize that Windows isn't making the page file big for no reason, and you are being benefited by it. It's more than a memory buffer of last resort. Also, if you have an SSD with enough free space to house the page file, the responsiveness benefits of removing it pretty much go away.
There's debate about turning off the pagefile completely.
IMO, most of it is based on misunderstood and outdated information, coming from both sides of the issue. Small fast SSDs and cheap dense RAM make the issue very different than before Vista came out. Your computer won't blow up if the page file is not there, you can make benchmarks to support any PF config (PF <RAM, PF >=RAM, no PF), and even interpret the same results differently (example: he sees no benefit, I see a 50% FPS improvement), but you need as much total RAM as you used to need RAM+swap to safely disable it (do you know exactly how much of your PF you really needed under your highest memory loads, including file caches?).

P.S. Found it!
http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/TechEd/NorthAmerica/2011/WCL405
Get at least the mid-sized WMV, and start at 1h09m, to get an idea of how to size the PF. Note, as well, how much info you would need to perfectly size it, and that if you make it too small, you will know it was too small, but an application crash or general slowdown may not give you the info you need to ideally size it. On one hand, the RAM*x may not be ideal, but finding just how much you need is involved, and much harder than using a few more GBs or buying more RAM.
 
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OptimumSlinky

Senior member
Nov 3, 2009
345
1
76
I think I may have been the one that told you to upgrade your memory. But that was specific to your crossfire setup, where 6GB would not be sufficient in BF3. If you are and were getting stuttering with a single card, it was not memory related (wish I'd known you had that problem with a single card before). That startup stuttering is almost definitely your slow hard drive.

Since you have an SSD on your purchase list anyway, I think you'll take care of this problem soon enough. In the meantime, I don't see any reason for you to not be running crossfire, as 5850s scale at 85% in BF3. And now you have the memory for it.

Edit: yup, it was me! Link: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=33018293&postcount=7334

Honestly, I think it would be helpful if you put your rig specs in your sig. I would have caught on to the hard drive problem immediately, potentially saving you money. That being said, I'm still of the opinion that buying another 6GB was both a good upgrade for running crossfire and relatively inexpensive, so no big loss there.

BAHH! DAMN MONEY PIT THIS MACHINE

Oh well. I may have to go back to a single GPU config for a while anyways, as I've become addicted to the Blacklight Retribution beta and it will not run for me in CrossFireX.
 

NP Complete

Member
Jul 16, 2010
57
0
0
OptimumSlinky, before you take any more advice, I'd recommend taking some steps to try and figure out the root of your problem.

Take a look at Performance Monitor, and run it while your using BF3. Specifically, you probably want to setup for measurements on the BF3 executable (big green +, navigate to Process, expand the list, and select the measurments you want to take).

%Processor Time - if this is maxed, your processor is likely the bottle neck
Working Set - This will show you how much memory BF3 is using
IO Read/Write /sec - this will show you if you're contrained by HDD IO.
Page Faults/Sec - a high number here, especially after initial load, shows a paging issue.

My advice, fire it up Performance Monitor, collect the data, and either analyze it yourself, or post it here. The best way (if you have multiple monitors), is to setup the performance monitor on one screen, and BF3 on the other, and then watch the performance metrics as you respawn.

I'm not certain, but I'd guess that BF3 is likely a 32 bit executable (most game executables are still 32 bit), making upgrading memory not as likely to have a large impact on performance. You might get a boost if BF3 can cache the texture files indirectly in memory, but I doubt the main BF3 process uses more than 2 GB directly.

The SSD may solve your problem, but I run BF3 from a separate mechanical HDD on my setup, and don't see the stutterring issues.

Finally, I'd leave the page file alone unless you have direct evidence that it's causing the issues. As Cerb mentions, windows is pretty intelligent about managing PF usage, and in most modern systems, you shouldn't see PF used unless you run out of memory (in which case you'll want it enabled anyway).
 

OptimumSlinky

Senior member
Nov 3, 2009
345
1
76
OptimumSlinky, before you take any more advice, I'd recommend taking some steps to try and figure out the root of your problem.

Take a look at Performance Monitor, and run it while your using BF3. Specifically, you probably want to setup for measurements on the BF3 executable (big green +, navigate to Process, expand the list, and select the measurments you want to take).

%Processor Time - if this is maxed, your processor is likely the bottle neck
Working Set - This will show you how much memory BF3 is using
IO Read/Write /sec - this will show you if you're contrained by HDD IO.
Page Faults/Sec - a high number here, especially after initial load, shows a paging issue.

My advice, fire it up Performance Monitor, collect the data, and either analyze it yourself, or post it here. The best way (if you have multiple monitors), is to setup the performance monitor on one screen, and BF3 on the other, and then watch the performance metrics as you respawn.

I'm not certain, but I'd guess that BF3 is likely a 32 bit executable (most game executables are still 32 bit), making upgrading memory not as likely to have a large impact on performance. You might get a boost if BF3 can cache the texture files indirectly in memory, but I doubt the main BF3 process uses more than 2 GB directly.

The SSD may solve your problem, but I run BF3 from a separate mechanical HDD on my setup, and don't see the stutterring issues.

Finally, I'd leave the page file alone unless you have direct evidence that it's causing the issues. As Cerb mentions, windows is pretty intelligent about managing PF usage, and in most modern systems, you shouldn't see PF used unless you run out of memory (in which case you'll want it enabled anyway).

Not sure I configured the performance monitor right, but I got some SHITTY performance just now in BF3. Couldn't run the game on HIGH with 5850s XF'd, and even MEDIUM was choppier than it is on a single 5850. Performance monitor shows some SERIOUS spikes in CPU (up to about 70) and a 100 max out of one line which I believe is page faults. To be honest I'd have to do it again to clean up the graphs as I didn't set it up properly.

Right now, sadly, it seems the only game that really likes having the second GPU and shows no adverse effects (stuttering, chop, graphical glitches) is Crysis 2. It just runs like a dream in ULTRA with the high-res textures.
 

NP Complete

Member
Jul 16, 2010
57
0
0
Lots of page faults could be a driver issue. I'll try to capture my performance metrics tonight at home, and perhaps comparing our performance metrics will help pinpoint the issue on your system.
 

Makaveli

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2002
4,761
1,160
136
The only thing missing is you never mentioned which Ati drivers you are using?
I can play BF3 on high with ultra textures and FXAA and get great fps.Something else is going on with your system if you cannot play at medium with 5850 xfire.

What temps are your videocards hitting under full load?

Most current DX version installed?

What apps are running in the background while playing?
 

ptg

Junior Member
Mar 19, 2012
1
0
0
A couple quick things that wont hurt to check:

I had this problem in TF2 a while back..not sure if your stuttering is similar but fwiw I used a -heapsize command adjusted to the amount of RAM I have (6GB) which basically fixed the heavy stuttering problem. I'm not sure if BF3 has something similar?

Also another thing that was hurting performance (causing chopping) was vsync was disabled so fps was going much higher than my monitor's refresh rate.
 
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