US and Mexico reach a trade deal, paving the way to replace NAFTA

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SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
Name his accomplishments.

Established the Peace Corps, was a great voice or equality and civil rights, neither us nor the Soviets launched nukes at each other during a time of tribulation, equal pay act, and I think he was a uniter... a guy that was a Democrat that Republicans could look up to. This is something I see Trump as despite his brash personality. It isn't his fault that propaganda-led leftist sheeple refuse to see we're doing well under his leadership.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,912
2,130
126
Oh good, just what Canada needs...elements of the US healthcare system:
"The intellectual property chapter includes an extension of the length of time new biologic drugs will be protected from generic drug competition — up two years, from Canada's previously agreed-upon eight years, to 10 years of exclusivity. The U.S. was pushing Canada and Mexico to give 12 years of protection, so it's a compromise. Key congressional voices wanted to see a win for the pharmaceutical industry to help secure their votes."
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
Haha, I totally called this a long time ago. Basically there are a few minor changes to our existing trade agreement, Trump declares victory, and things carry on as they always have.

What a tremendous waste of time and what a ridiculous reason to alienate one of our closest allies for such tiny changes.

Pretty much. Canada kept/got pretty much what it wanted at what seems, at least initially, little cost.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
Trump is really crushing it lately. He's getting pro-American trade deals in place, we're going to be less dependent on foreign oil, and we're reestablishing America as the leader of the free world under his leadership. He is likely the best president we've had since JFK.

<insert excessive HAHAHAs here>
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
I'm really questioning how much though, what exactly does 3.6% market access mean along with the removal of dairy categories? These appear to be the big changes but I'm not familiar enough with the dairy market to understand if this is really a win or just some fiddling around the edges.

It's tiny and the category that was removed was only in effect for about a year. It's fiddling around the edges.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,652
10,515
136
Oh good, just what Canada needs...elements of the US healthcare system:
"The intellectual property chapter includes an extension of the length of time new biologic drugs will be protected from generic drug competition — up two years, from Canada's previously agreed-upon eight years, to 10 years of exclusivity. The U.S. was pushing Canada and Mexico to give 12 years of protection, so it's a compromise. Key congressional voices wanted to see a win for the pharmaceutical industry to help secure their votes."
God they must be up there with the petroleum, and big ag guys when it comes to pay offs, I, mean campaign contributions.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,040
136
Reality is I'm 100% right there. America is better today than it was before Trump was elected. FACT (well, opinion technically, but one backed by a mountain of evidence).
I'll repeat:Which part of America would that be, those that need help wrt healthcare, those with stagnated wages, Or those with stock portfolios?
 

SlowSpyder

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
17,305
1,001
126
I'll repeat:Which part of America would that be, those that need help wrt healthcare, those with stagnated wages, Or those with stock portfolios?

The part of America that is better today than before Trump would be everything between the Pacific and Atlantic oceans, plus AK and HI too.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,658
5,228
136
Interesting how so very many of the people who have worked directly with him think he's lazy, incompetent, and emotionally unstable.

I would say that at least so far GWB was more destructive than Trump but it's pretty clear we've never had someone less capable as our president.


There is some advantage to this if played correctly.

Eg, he creates the environment for others who actually know something to try and push better concessions as the choice becomes:
"Hey, make this deal with me, else it goes to Trump, and god knows what will happen next. We both may get screwed by that fucking moron. We don't really want that do we?"

If he's not too stupid and impulsive, it may work out time to time.

Getting the Canadians to buy a few more gallons of milk is not worth the overall damage in the long run, but may end up with a few silver linings if we survive.
 
Last edited:

IronWing

No Lifer
Jul 20, 2001
69,525
27,829
136
Oh good, just what Canada needs...elements of the US healthcare system:
"The intellectual property chapter includes an extension of the length of time new biologic drugs will be protected from generic drug competition — up two years, from Canada's previously agreed-upon eight years, to 10 years of exclusivity. The U.S. was pushing Canada and Mexico to give 12 years of protection, so it's a compromise. Key congressional voices wanted to see a win for the pharmaceutical industry to help secure their votes."
That bites Americans back as it means Americans buying drugs in the Canadian market as an alternative to the stupidly priced drugs we buy here will have to pay more.
 
Reactions: ivwshane and rise

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,947
20,216
136
"
Well, that was unnecessarily painful.

After spending a year and a half alienating our friends, punishing our farmers and manufacturers with devastating tariffs and counter-tariffs, and fracturing the hard-won alliance we had built to isolate and pressure China, we finally got a new trade deal — and a “new” trade strategy.

Yet somehow, they look an awful lot like the old ones.

On Sunday evening, news broke that Canada agreed to the terms of a renegotiated North American Free Trade Agreement. Not merely renegotiated: rebranded! What was once the easily pronounceable “NAFTA” will hereafter be the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement, or “USMCA.”

Why the name change was needed is a little unclear. Our marketer in chief clearly loves rebranding things, and USMCA, while it doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue, does have the virtue of literally putting America first. Oddly, the posted text of the trade pact itself still repeatedly refers to itself as “NAFTA 2018.” I guess someone forgot to search-and-replace.



As to the substance, well, the best you can say is it could have been a whole lot worse. President Trump didn’t, as he threatened, blow up the system.

So, you know, whoop de doo.

There are some new protectionist measures, such as complicated new requirements for auto rules of origin, which could potentially backfire. That is, they may end up being so costly to adhere to that they’ll encourage manufacturers to move more of their operations and jobs outside of North America.

Other stuff, such as a “sunset” provision requiring members to regularly reaffirm their desire to continue the three-party deal, is probably also not an improvement. There are better ways to encourage ongoing modernization of the deal that would involve less policy uncertainty for businesses. But, again, this section is not as bad as many businesses and trade experts feared.

Trump also won some modest concessions in tiny industries he’s weirdly obsessed with, such as Canadian dairy. He has conveniently played down the concessions he made in exchange: In return for greater American access to the Canadian dairy, poultry and egg markets, we gave Canada greater access to U.S. markets for dairy, peanuts, processed peanut products, sugar and sugar-containing products.

But for the most part, despite Trump’s assertion that “it’s not NAFTA redone, it’s a brand-new deal,” the president mostly kept NAFTA intact.

What’s more, some of the more significant changes — relating to issues such as labor standards, environmental protections and e-commerce — appear to be cribbed from another trade deal that Trump has demonized: the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

If you (like me) supported TPP, this is either reassuring or supremely frustrating.

President Barack Obama negotiated TPP — a 12-party pact that included Canada and Mexico — as part of his own promise to “renegotiate NAFTA.” TPP was also Obama’s strategy for keeping China from writing “the rules of the road” on trade. China was deliberately excluded from the pact, which was designed to cement a coalition of countries that had been wounded by China’s misbehavior. Working together, these trade victims hoped to pressure China to reform.

One of Trump’s first orders of business as president, of course, was to pull out of TPP. He soon thereafter picked unnecessary trade fights with TPP countries we’d previously tried to make common cause with.

Now Trump seems to have realized his mistake. Despite how he characterizes his “historic transaction,” the USMCA is mostly just a smooshing together of two trade deals that he derided as the worst trade deals ever made, as Dartmouth Tuck School of Business professor Emily Blanchard points out.


In fact, a bunch of NAFTA 2.0 language appears squarely aimed at returning to Obama’s alliance strategy for isolating China — which, to reiterate, only requires rebuilding because Trump destroyed it.

For instance, the NAFTA-replacement deal includes “protections against misappropriation of trade secrets, including by state-owned enterprises,” one of China’s major trade sins. Likewise, there’s also language designed to disincentivize NAFTA 2.0 signatories from making free-trade deals with “non-market” countries, widely understood to be targeting China. Some have speculated that Trump may press for similar language in negotiations with other countries, such as Japan.

In other words, Trump has wrought a lot of destruction in service of landing us in roughly the same position we would have been in had we simply stayed in TPP and pursued more amicable negotiations with Mexico and Canada on other outstanding issues.

Some of these harms — such as the steel and aluminum tariffs and retaliatory measures that, despite Sunday’s announcement, remain on the books — may yet be reversible. But the damage to our reputation as a reliable trading partner and ally may be irreparable. To Trump, that may be a feature, not a bug."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...90f1daae309_story.html?utm_term=.4b28ad968564
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
Oh good, just what Canada needs...elements of the US healthcare system:
"The intellectual property chapter includes an extension of the length of time new biologic drugs will be protected from generic drug competition — up two years, from Canada's previously agreed-upon eight years, to 10 years of exclusivity. The U.S. was pushing Canada and Mexico to give 12 years of protection, so it's a compromise. Key congressional voices wanted to see a win for the pharmaceutical industry to help secure their votes."

Calm yourself broceritops. From what I understand that shit was already in NAFTA - Trumps plan simply just increased the patent for generics by 2 years in Canada.
 
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
146
"
Well, that was unnecessarily painful.

After spending a year and a half alienating our friends, punishing our farmers and manufacturers with devastating tariffs and counter-tariffs, and fracturing the hard-won alliance we had built to isolate and pressure China, we finally got a new trade deal — and a “new” trade strategy.

Yet somehow, they look an awful lot like the old ones.

On Sunday evening, news broke that Canada agreed to the terms of a renegotiated North American Free Trade Agreement. Not merely renegotiated: rebranded! What was once the easily pronounceable “NAFTA” will hereafter be the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement, or “USMCA.”

Why the name change was needed is a little unclear. Our marketer in chief clearly loves rebranding things, and USMCA, while it doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue, does have the virtue of literally putting America first. Oddly, the posted text of the trade pact itself still repeatedly refers to itself as “NAFTA 2018.” I guess someone forgot to search-and-replace.



As to the substance, well, the best you can say is it could have been a whole lot worse. President Trump didn’t, as he threatened, blow up the system.

So, you know, whoop de doo.

There are some new protectionist measures, such as complicated new requirements for auto rules of origin, which could potentially backfire. That is, they may end up being so costly to adhere to that they’ll encourage manufacturers to move more of their operations and jobs outside of North America.

Other stuff, such as a “sunset” provision requiring members to regularly reaffirm their desire to continue the three-party deal, is probably also not an improvement. There are better ways to encourage ongoing modernization of the deal that would involve less policy uncertainty for businesses. But, again, this section is not as bad as many businesses and trade experts feared.

Trump also won some modest concessions in tiny industries he’s weirdly obsessed with, such as Canadian dairy. He has conveniently played down the concessions he made in exchange: In return for greater American access to the Canadian dairy, poultry and egg markets, we gave Canada greater access to U.S. markets for dairy, peanuts, processed peanut products, sugar and sugar-containing products.

But for the most part, despite Trump’s assertion that “it’s not NAFTA redone, it’s a brand-new deal,” the president mostly kept NAFTA intact.

What’s more, some of the more significant changes — relating to issues such as labor standards, environmental protections and e-commerce — appear to be cribbed from another trade deal that Trump has demonized: the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

If you (like me) supported TPP, this is either reassuring or supremely frustrating.

President Barack Obama negotiated TPP — a 12-party pact that included Canada and Mexico — as part of his own promise to “renegotiate NAFTA.” TPP was also Obama’s strategy for keeping China from writing “the rules of the road” on trade. China was deliberately excluded from the pact, which was designed to cement a coalition of countries that had been wounded by China’s misbehavior. Working together, these trade victims hoped to pressure China to reform.

One of Trump’s first orders of business as president, of course, was to pull out of TPP. He soon thereafter picked unnecessary trade fights with TPP countries we’d previously tried to make common cause with.

Now Trump seems to have realized his mistake. Despite how he characterizes his “historic transaction,” the USMCA is mostly just a smooshing together of two trade deals that he derided as the worst trade deals ever made, as Dartmouth Tuck School of Business professor Emily Blanchard points out.


In fact, a bunch of NAFTA 2.0 language appears squarely aimed at returning to Obama’s alliance strategy for isolating China — which, to reiterate, only requires rebuilding because Trump destroyed it.

For instance, the NAFTA-replacement deal includes “protections against misappropriation of trade secrets, including by state-owned enterprises,” one of China’s major trade sins. Likewise, there’s also language designed to disincentivize NAFTA 2.0 signatories from making free-trade deals with “non-market” countries, widely understood to be targeting China. Some have speculated that Trump may press for similar language in negotiations with other countries, such as Japan.

In other words, Trump has wrought a lot of destruction in service of landing us in roughly the same position we would have been in had we simply stayed in TPP and pursued more amicable negotiations with Mexico and Canada on other outstanding issues.

Some of these harms — such as the steel and aluminum tariffs and retaliatory measures that, despite Sunday’s announcement, remain on the books — may yet be reversible. But the damage to our reputation as a reliable trading partner and ally may be irreparable. To Trump, that may be a feature, not a bug."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...90f1daae309_story.html?utm_term=.4b28ad968564

Don't take this the wrong way - but PLEASE stop perceiving this as "basically the same thing"

Essentially, every trade deal (NAFTA, TPP, etc...) are ALL after the same common objective... get as much free trade rules as humanly possible. The rest is just technicalities..

You know, such as Canada that has historically for the last 20 years been trying to protect its dairy industry in the form of preventing global trade on it. You know, that one? That's the FUCKING exact same equivalent of what Trump has been doing with his latest moves (China, Canada, etc...) Attempting to limit competition. That drives up cost from a lack of supply, demand remains the same - thus their citizens are paying excessively more for their milk in an effort for Trudeau to give a hand-job to their dairy farmers. The reality is - they should have been competing with US dairy all along. Fuck Canada and fuck their protectionist measures just like everyone else here is saying fuck Trump for doing the exact same fucking thing that you are defending. The door swings both ways you incompetent fucking morons.

To put it in the most simplistic way for you to understand...

 
Last edited:

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,658
5,228
136
Don't take this the wrong way - but PLEASE stop perceiving this as "basically the same thing"

Essentially, every trade deal (NAFTA, TPP, etc...) are ALL after the same common objective... get as much free trade rules as humanly possible. The rest is just technicalities..

You know, such as Canada that has historically for the last 20 years been trying to protect its dairy industry in the form of preventing global trade on it. You know, that one? That's the FUCKING exact same equivalent of what Trump has been doing with his latest moves (China, Canada, etc...) Attempting to limit competition. That drives up cost from a lack of supply, demand remains the same - thus their citizens are paying excessively more for their milk in an effort for Trudeau to give a hand-job to their dairy farmers. The reality is - they should have been competing with US dairy all along. Fuck Canada and fuck their protectionist measures just like everyone else here is saying fuck Trump for doing the exact same fucking thing that are you are defending. The door swings both ways you incompetent fucking morons.

To put it in the most simplistic way for you to understand...



So we're all going to be rich now because milk?

Trying to find some credible economists who explain how this is much different than NAFTA 1.

Sounds like mostly same NAFTA, some tweaks, and lifting some IP language from the TTP.

Basically, few will even notice the difference.

All well and good if that's what it is, but nothing revolutionary. More of a 2018 refresh.
 

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
96,181
15,776
126
Don't take this the wrong way - but PLEASE stop perceiving this as "basically the same thing"

Essentially, every trade deal (NAFTA, TPP, etc...) are ALL after the same common objective... get as much free trade rules as humanly possible. The rest is just technicalities..

You know, such as Canada that has historically for the last 20 years been trying to protect its dairy industry in the form of preventing global trade on it. You know, that one? That's the FUCKING exact same equivalent of what Trump has been doing with his latest moves (China, Canada, etc...) Attempting to limit competition. That drives up cost from a lack of supply, demand remains the same - thus their citizens are paying excessively more for their milk in an effort for Trudeau to give a hand-job to their dairy farmers. The reality is - they should have been competing with US dairy all along. Fuck Canada and fuck their protectionist measures just like everyone else here is saying fuck Trump for doing the exact same fucking thing that you are defending. The door swings both ways you incompetent fucking morons.

To put it in the most simplistic way for you to understand...



Ah so your dairy industry over produces and someone else has to clean up your bullshit? Drink more milk if you are concerned about dairy farmers. We import more dairy products from the US than you import from us.
http://www.thebullvine.com/news/in-...ow-prices-cause-concern-for-us-dairy-farmers/

https://globalnews.ca/news/3393611/dairy-industry-statistics/

Why are you supporting a globalist agenda? Thought you hate Hillary for that?

https://mercyforanimals.org/us-senate-bails-out-dairy-industry-with-1
 
Last edited:

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,658
5,228
136
Perhaps one if the most important aspects of this NAFTA update is that it's over and we can move on.

My understanding is that the steel tariffs are still not over, but at least it ends some uncertainty and animosity.

However, it's questionable if the small concessions we got were worth the damage we've just done with our closest neighbors and allies when the real focus should be on China.

In fact, we've taken an odd tactic of pissing off all the allies we will need to confront Chinese trade practices prior to the negotiations. We've also broken our bond by unilaterally pulling out of the Iran deal, and now allies are working to undermine our sanctions.

This is hardly the strong, united front we'll need to corner China to stop the IP theft.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,333
15,128
136
So I'm confused. I thought everyone hated the TPP. Considering that the USMCA took parts of the TPP as its own and trump supporters are hailing it as a win, does that mean they are now cool with the TPP?


Man, it must be hard being a righty or a conservative now a days with all the backtracking one must do to maintain party support.


As for the trade deal itself, meh. It sounds like a tweak to NAFTA. It doesn't sound like a bad tweak but it's nothing (so far) that I would be screaming about (like Bush's decision to invade iraq, or the passage of the patriot act, or the numerous things the EPA has done under trump, or the Republicans rigging of elections).

I can't wait till trump negotiates immigration reform where the wall gets built at some key points and illegal immigrants currently in the US get amnesty. Because you know his cult members will suddenly be ok with what was once a red line with them.
 

thilanliyan

Lifer
Jun 21, 2005
11,912
2,130
126
Ah so your dairy industry over produces and someone else has to clean up your bullshit? Drink more milk if you are concerned about dairy farmers. We import more dairy products from the US than you import from us.
Exactly. Why should Canada have to deal with oversupply by the US dairy industry?
Unfortunately (for Canada) the US definitely has more leverage as they are a much bigger economy.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,652
10,515
136
"
Well, that was unnecessarily painful.

After spending a year and a half alienating our friends, punishing our farmers and manufacturers with devastating tariffs and counter-tariffs, and fracturing the hard-won alliance we had built to isolate and pressure China, we finally got a new trade deal — and a “new” trade strategy.

Yet somehow, they look an awful lot like the old ones.

On Sunday evening, news broke that Canada agreed to the terms of a renegotiated North American Free Trade Agreement. Not merely renegotiated: rebranded! What was once the easily pronounceable “NAFTA” will hereafter be the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement, or “USMCA.”

Why the name change was needed is a little unclear. Our marketer in chief clearly loves rebranding things, and USMCA, while it doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue, does have the virtue of literally putting America first. Oddly, the posted text of the trade pact itself still repeatedly refers to itself as “NAFTA 2018.” I guess someone forgot to search-and-replace.



As to the substance, well, the best you can say is it could have been a whole lot worse. President Trump didn’t, as he threatened, blow up the system.

So, you know, whoop de doo.

There are some new protectionist measures, such as complicated new requirements for auto rules of origin, which could potentially backfire. That is, they may end up being so costly to adhere to that they’ll encourage manufacturers to move more of their operations and jobs outside of North America.

Other stuff, such as a “sunset” provision requiring members to regularly reaffirm their desire to continue the three-party deal, is probably also not an improvement. There are better ways to encourage ongoing modernization of the deal that would involve less policy uncertainty for businesses. But, again, this section is not as bad as many businesses and trade experts feared.

Trump also won some modest concessions in tiny industries he’s weirdly obsessed with, such as Canadian dairy. He has conveniently played down the concessions he made in exchange: In return for greater American access to the Canadian dairy, poultry and egg markets, we gave Canada greater access to U.S. markets for dairy, peanuts, processed peanut products, sugar and sugar-containing products.

But for the most part, despite Trump’s assertion that “it’s not NAFTA redone, it’s a brand-new deal,” the president mostly kept NAFTA intact.

What’s more, some of the more significant changes — relating to issues such as labor standards, environmental protections and e-commerce — appear to be cribbed from another trade deal that Trump has demonized: the Trans-Pacific Partnership.

If you (like me) supported TPP, this is either reassuring or supremely frustrating.

President Barack Obama negotiated TPP — a 12-party pact that included Canada and Mexico — as part of his own promise to “renegotiate NAFTA.” TPP was also Obama’s strategy for keeping China from writing “the rules of the road” on trade. China was deliberately excluded from the pact, which was designed to cement a coalition of countries that had been wounded by China’s misbehavior. Working together, these trade victims hoped to pressure China to reform.

One of Trump’s first orders of business as president, of course, was to pull out of TPP. He soon thereafter picked unnecessary trade fights with TPP countries we’d previously tried to make common cause with.

Now Trump seems to have realized his mistake. Despite how he characterizes his “historic transaction,” the USMCA is mostly just a smooshing together of two trade deals that he derided as the worst trade deals ever made, as Dartmouth Tuck School of Business professor Emily Blanchard points out.


In fact, a bunch of NAFTA 2.0 language appears squarely aimed at returning to Obama’s alliance strategy for isolating China — which, to reiterate, only requires rebuilding because Trump destroyed it.

For instance, the NAFTA-replacement deal includes “protections against misappropriation of trade secrets, including by state-owned enterprises,” one of China’s major trade sins. Likewise, there’s also language designed to disincentivize NAFTA 2.0 signatories from making free-trade deals with “non-market” countries, widely understood to be targeting China. Some have speculated that Trump may press for similar language in negotiations with other countries, such as Japan.

In other words, Trump has wrought a lot of destruction in service of landing us in roughly the same position we would have been in had we simply stayed in TPP and pursued more amicable negotiations with Mexico and Canada on other outstanding issues.

Some of these harms — such as the steel and aluminum tariffs and retaliatory measures that, despite Sunday’s announcement, remain on the books — may yet be reversible. But the damage to our reputation as a reliable trading partner and ally may be irreparable. To Trump, that may be a feature, not a bug."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...90f1daae309_story.html?utm_term=.4b28ad968564
Thanks for doing the homework for us.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
6,572
7,823
136
As I understand it makes trade a little more free, but incrementally. If this is an agreement that all three sides benefit from and are happy with, I'm all for it.

One can't really argue that NAFTA was "the worst trade deal in history" - as Trump famously said - and turn around and say NAFTA 2.0 is a great deal, because it doesn't change enough for that to be true. In all honestly, what Trump wanted most of all, he got - they changed the name. If they'd negotiated some minor adjustments to NAFTA, he could not have said he'd torn up the "worst trade deal in history," it would have sounded stupid. With is being called USMCA he can claim to the Trumpists that he's come up with a totally new deal even though it's going to be 99% the same. Which is lucky for everyone, because, of course, it was a perfectly good deal that helped all three countries.

The truth is the deal was going to fail in the US Senate without Canada, because there's too many Republican senators in states along the border who would have refused to vote for it lest a thousand business owners with supply ties to Canada burn their constituency offices down. Hence, it looks quite a lot like the old deal, since that's what Canada wanted anyway and kept stalling for. Hell, even what we "gave up" is mostly good for us.
 
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