US: Gap between rich and poor widest on record.

[Acanthus]

if you go by a more classic definition of what you do for a living defining your economic class, they very well could be. doctors, lawyers, and shopkeepers (small business owners) are traditionally middle class, and many of them could be at the upper end of the 98th percentile and the lower end of the 99th percentile. technically fund managers, as people who make their money handling others' wealth, would also be middle class as they're knowledge workers. and i bet they are overrepresented in the 99th percentile.

So by using a qualitative measurement based on nothing... you can call the quantitative measurement that nullifies the argument bunk and the statement that "the 99th percentile is middle class" genuine?

 

[ShawnD1]

if you go by a more classic definition of what you do for a living defining your economic class, they very well could be. doctors, lawyers, and shopkeepers (small business owners) are traditionally middle class,

Depends which country you are in. Traditionally, middle class means you're a baller, but you still need to work, and it usually means you have an educated job. The middle class includes the brain doctor who makes almost a million per year. Most people are in the working class. The working class is filled with people who are not ballers, and they work for a living. A rig pig earning 100k and a janitor making 20k per year are both working class. Upper class is when you're a baller and you don't need to work. This would be people like Paris Hilton. She doesn't need a job because she is upper class.

In the US, the above doesn't apply. Shift every class up 1 name. Heavy duty mechanics are now middle class, doctors are now upper class, and Paris Hilton is now supreme mega rich class.

 

[spacejamz]

Here is a great example of CA's welfare dollars hard at work and yet we have many posters here who will defend the actions of the poor:

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/04/local/la-me-welfare-20101004

$69 million in California welfare money drawn out of state
Las Vegas tops the list with $11.8 million spent at casinos or taken from ATMs, but transactions in Hawaii, Miami, Guam and elsewhere also raise questions. Officials say budget cuts hinder investigations.
October 04, 2010|By Jack Dolan, Los Angeles Times

Reporting from Sacramento — More than $69 million in California welfare money, meant to help the needy pay their rent and clothe their children, has been spent or withdrawn outside the state in recent years, including millions in Las Vegas, hundreds of thousands in Hawaii and thousands on cruise ships sailing from Miami.

State-issued aid cards have been used at hotels, shops, restaurants, ATMs and other places in 49 other states, the U.S. Virgin Islands and Guam, according to data obtained by The Times from the California Department of Social Services. Las Vegas drew $11.8 million of the cash benefits, far more than any other destination. The money was accessed from January 2007 through May 2010.

Welfare recipients must prove they can't afford life's necessities without government aid: A single parent with two children generally must earn less than $14,436 a year to qualify for the cash assistance and becomes ineligible once his or her income exceeds about $20,000, said Lizelda Lopez, spokeswoman for the Department of Social Services.

Round-trip flights from Los Angeles to Honolulu on Orbitz.com Sunday started at $419 — more than 80% of the average monthly cash benefit for a single parent of two on CalWorks, the state's main aid program.

"How they can go somewhere like Hawaii and be legit on aid … they can't," said Robert Hollenbeck, a fraud investigator for the Fresno County district attorney's office. "This is money for basic subsistence needs."

The $387,908 accessed in Hawaii includes transactions at more than a thousand big-box stores, grocery stores, convenience shops and ATMs on all the major islands. At least $234,000 was accessed on Oahu, $70,626 on Maui, $39,883 on Hawaii and $22,170 on Kauai.

The list includes $12,433 spent at the upscale Ala Moana shopping center, $3,030 spent at a group of gift shops next to Jimmy Buffett's Beachcomber restaurant on Waikiki Beach and $2,146 withdrawn from ATMs on the island of Lanai, home to a pair of Four Seasons resorts and little else.

"If it's on Lanai, that should trigger an investigation," said Jon Coupal, president of the Howard Jarvis Taxpayers Assn. "California taxpayers, who are struggling to keep their own jobs, are subsidizing other people's vacations. That's absurd."

Of the nearly $12 million accessed in Las Vegas, more than $1 million was spent or withdrawn at shops and casino hotels on, or within a few blocks of, the 4.5-mile strip. The list includes $8,968 at the Tropicana, $7,995 at the Venetian and its Grand Canal Shoppes, and $1,332 at Tix 4 Tonight, seller of discount admission for such acts as Cirque du Soleil.

Although many Las Vegas casinos block the use of welfare cards in ATMs on gambling floors, more than $34,700 has been spent or withdrawn from the ATM at a 7-Eleven in the shadow of Steve Wynn's new Encore casino and a couple of blocks south of Circus Circus.

The store's owner, Rupee Chima, knows the California welfare cards well. He said the people using them don't look like high rollers. "They're not coming in with Rolexes," he said.

And it's possible, he noted, to pack a bunch of people in a car, drive four hours from Los Angeles and share a room at a down-market casino hotel for a relatively frugal vacation.

Californian Omar Mikhail, dining at Encore, said his parents paid their rent with welfare aid when they immigrated to the Bay Area from Afghanistan in the early 1980s. They would never have dreamed of driving to Las Vegas with their monthly check, he said.

"When I hear something like that, it's so disheartening," he said.

The data show addresses of stores and ATM locations where the cards have been used and the amounts of the transactions by year. They do not reveal the identities of the welfare recipients or show how many users visited a given retailer.

Of the $1.5 million accessed in Florida, $13,109 was spent or withdrawn in South Beach, most of that at bars and restaurants along trendy Lincoln Road. More than $7,000 was withdrawn from ATMs a few hours north, at Walt Disney World.

The data also show $16,010 withdrawn from 14 cruise ships sailing from ports around the world — Long Beach, Rio de Janeiro, Beijing. Eight sail primarily from Miami.

 

[Craig234]

Here is a great example of CA's welfare dollars hard at work and yet we have many posters here who will defend the actions of the poor:

Yes, there is some fraud. What you didn't quote was that it's small.

The out-of-state spending accounts for less than 1% of the $10.8 billion spent by welfare recipients during the period covered, and advocates note that there are legitimate reasons to spend aid money outside of California.

And the small-government budget-slashing zealots here bring this:

In Los Angeles County, investigators hadn't been checking until a recipient was gone for three months, said Department of Public Social Services Director Philip Browning. The inability to do more was "really just a resource issue," he said...

Many recipients travel to other states in an emergency such as a death in the family, investigators say. But with government resources scarce, it's difficult to sort those cases from incidents of abuse.

An anti-fraud unit in Orange County, which won praise from state officials last year for saving the state millions, has since had to slash its budget and lay off 15 investigators, said Paul Bartlett, commander of the county district attorney's Bureau of Investigation.

Those cuts saved $900,000 in operating expenses but allowed "an estimated $9.6 million in suspected fraud payments out the door," according to an Orange County Grand Jury report released in May.

 

[ElFenix]

So by using a qualitative measurement based on nothing... you can call the quantitative measurement that nullifies the argument bunk and the statement that "the 99th percentile is middle class" genuine?

historically the bourgeois are the middle class, and the bourgeois is characterized by people who either worked for themselves or were knowledge workers (accountants, lawyers, etc.). not at all based on nothing. i even identified that i what i was writing was the historical definition. the standard US definition is not the same (i'm not even certain there is a standard US definition, damn near everyone thinks they're middle class here). i even said that some people in the 99th percentile would and would not meet that historical definition of middle class. but of course ATP&N being what it is that means that i think the top income earners in the country are middle class.

 

[brencat]

...Those who are interested in helping must adopt the attitude of teaching people how to fish instead of passing out fish sandwiches if persistent problems such as crime and poverty are to be effectively addressed.

@Shawn, great article, and there is a definite correlation between extreme poverty/lost hope/nothing to lose and crime going up. I would also point out in the article you referenced the quote highlighted above. Unfortunately, government aid programs undeniably have a high percentage of fraud and waste attached to them and often don't teach a man to fish. Instead they foster a culture of dependency that spiv politicians (typically inner city Democrats) exploit for votes.

And as someone else in this thread also pointed out how in Orange County, the firing of anti-fraud personnel that saved the city $900k in salaries ultimately enabled 10x that amount in fraud to be committed. Trust but verify and rigorous enforcement is critical with these programs if we are going to continue to give our tax money for these programs. But if cities can't afford the anti-fraud personnel, then maybe we ought to think about cutting spending on these aid programs too because taxpayers are the ones getting shafted.

 

[soccerballtux]

Because history shows that the ever increasing gaps leads to instability in the overall economy.

Those two are correlated, but that does not imply causality.
Rather, the data shows when real poverty increases, stability decreases.

 

[Acanthus]

historically the bourgeois are the middle class, and the bourgeois is characterized by people who either worked for themselves or were knowledge workers (accountants, lawyers, etc.). not at all based on nothing. i even identified that i what i was writing was the historical definition. the standard US definition is not the same (i'm not even certain there is a standard US definition, damn near everyone thinks they're middle class here). i even said that some people in the 99th percentile would and would not meet that historical definition of middle class. but of course ATP&N being what it is that means that i think the top income earners in the country are middle class.

This is the same reason we don't measure with furlongs anymore.

I'm not seeing your point.

 

[GaiaHunter]

Rich is whoever the government has to tax more to pay for their runaway spending.

 

[animekenji]

Click me.

Thought that this was interesting. Not bitching about wealthy people so much as I am watching the foundation being torn out from the bottom as people at the lower end of the spectrum have fewer and fewer options for a decent paying job. No wonder that 50% of the people don't pay income taxes (federal) as their pay keeps going down and down.

It is interesting that the top 20% now earn 50% of the income but I suppose if you break it down, the top 1% or (top .1%) earn much of that. Don't have the tables to look at right now.

And this means what, exactly? People who work in high paying jobs get paid more than people in low paying jobs. So what? No news here.

You'll also notice that those top earners are also the same people who create all the jobs in this country. Go ahead, keep taxing them so they retire to some Carribean island and take all their money and jobs with them. Where will you bleeding hearts be then?

 

[animekenji]

This is what you get with low top marginal tax brackets.

WRONG! Low top marginal tax brackets encourages job growth and investment because the people who have the money actually have an incentive to expand their businesses and hire more people. When will you learn that? And who really cares about distribution of wealth other than Communists? If the rich are getting richer, then more power to them. That means they're doing it right. Those at the bottom are the whiners and the losers who want the government to hand them everything on a plate. Get yourself an education and a job and work instead of crying about how unfair it is all the time. Life is unfair. Nobody promised you anything and nobody is entitled anything more than what they earn with their own skill and labor.If your own lack of education or life skills is holding you back, then do something about it but don't expect the people who have made it to give you what they worked hard for because they owe you nothing. Get off your ass and do something instead of standing by the mailbox every 1st of the month waiting for your welfare check to arrive.

 

[Jhhnn]

Unfortunately, government aid programs undeniably have a high percentage of fraud and waste attached to them and often don't teach a man to fish. Instead they foster a culture of dependency that spiv politicians (typically inner city Democrats) exploit for votes.

Meh. And republican politicians often create and exploit a sense of outrage in their faithful followers that's entirely out of proportion to the problem.

Define "high percentage of fraud" for example... that's just a phrase used to get you riled up, make you jealous of somebody you perceive to be getting something for nothing when you aren't...

 

[Jhhnn]

WRONG! Low top marginal tax brackets encourages job growth and investment because the people who have the money actually have an incentive to expand their businesses and hire more people. When will you learn that? And who really cares about distribution of wealth other than Communists? If the rich are getting richer, then more power to them. That means they're doing it right. Those at the bottom are the whiners and the losers who want the government to hand them everything on a plate. Get yourself an education and a job and work instead of crying about how unfair it is all the time. Life is unfair. Nobody promised you anything and nobody is entitled anything more than what they earn with their own skill and labor.If your own lack of education or life skills is holding you back, then do something about it but don't expect the people who have made it to give you what they worked hard for because they owe you nothing. Get off your ass and do something instead of standing by the mailbox every 1st of the month waiting for your welfare check to arrive.

Funny that. I posted a link earlier showing corporate profits to be at record levels, even after laying off lots of people and with personal top tier income taxes at their lowest level of the postwar period...

Seems to me that capitalists were better at creating jobs when their taxes were higher, and they had to push their money to get good returns... Today, they can just loaf along on the fat margins from automation and imported goods...

 

[soundforbjt]

And this means what, exactly? People who work in high paying jobs get paid more than people in low paying jobs. So what? No news here.

You'll also notice that those top earners are also the same people who create all the jobs in this country. Go ahead, keep taxing them so they retire to some Carribean island and take all their money and jobs with them. Where will you bleeding hearts be then?

Earth to animekenji, there already is a place in the Carribean where a building the size of a small apartment building that houses over 1000 "corporate headquarters" of U.S. businesses. They are raping the working class and not paying any taxes, yet using all the benefits those taxes if they paid any, afford them.

Bet you think that's great and the "American Way" correct?

Where's all those jobs from the Bush tax cuts to the wealthy?

 

[ShawnD1]

WRONG! Low top marginal tax brackets encourages job growth and investment because the people who have the money actually have an incentive to expand their businesses and hire more people.

lol u fail at life. Employee salaries are already tax-free. It's counted as part of the company's operating costs, so there's no tax on it. If the company says it can't afford to hire people, that means the company simply is not making money. You could reduce the tax rate to 0 and they would still not hire new people because the company is not making money.

And who really cares about distribution of wealth other than Communists?

-people who drive cars on public roads
-people who attend public schools
-people who have ever called the police

I know it's hard to imagine this, but not everyone owns private roads like you do. Not everyone can afford the 10k per year to send 1 child to school. Not everyone can afford personal body guards.

Life is unfair

I wish rich people would learn this. Every time we try to jack their money for shit like roads and the military, they bitch about "waaah it's not fair". Life isn't fair, and that's why we're unfairly taking your money. Deal with it.

 

[blackangst1]

I wish rich people would learn this. Every time we try to jack their money for shit like roads and the military, they bitch about "waaah it's not fair". Life isn't fair, and that's why we're unfairly taking your money. Deal with it.

Now youre learning!

 

[Patranus]

lol u fail at life. Employee salaries are already tax-free. It's counted as part of the company's operating costs, so there's no tax on it. If the company says it can't afford to hire people, that means the company simply is not making money. You could reduce the tax rate to 0 and they would still not hire new people because the company is not making money.

Apparently you don't understand how the Social Security tax or unemployment insurance tax works.

 

[soundforbjt]

Apparently you don't understand how the Social Security tax or unemployment insurance tax works.

Tell that to my former employer, we were listed as contract labor and they paid none of those. We did.

 

[simpletron]

Tell that to my former employer, we were listed as contract labor and they paid none of those. We did.

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html

If you really were an employee and not an independent contractor, fill out a SS-8 form to get the IRS to determine that you were employee and then fill out a Form 8919 to get the employer's portion of payroll taxes.

 

[Acanthus]

WRONG! Low top marginal tax brackets encourages job growth and investment because the people who have the money actually have an incentive to expand their businesses and hire more people. When will you learn that? And who really cares about distribution of wealth other than Communists? If the rich are getting richer, then more power to them. That means they're doing it right. Those at the bottom are the whiners and the losers who want the government to hand them everything on a plate. Get yourself an education and a job and work instead of crying about how unfair it is all the time. Life is unfair. Nobody promised you anything and nobody is entitled anything more than what they earn with their own skill and labor.If your own lack of education or life skills is holding you back, then do something about it but don't expect the people who have made it to give you what they worked hard for because they owe you nothing. Get off your ass and do something instead of standing by the mailbox every 1st of the month waiting for your welfare check to arrive.

No one will learn that because it isnt true.

There is no data to support what you are saying.

There is a lot of data that supports the gini index rises significantly when you cut taxes.

 

[Jhhnn]

Those two are correlated, but that does not imply causality.
Rather, the data shows when real poverty increases, stability decreases.

Incorrect. What the data shows is that when concentration of wealth and income increase, stability decreases. It's not necessary for poverty to increase for that to happen, but rather for the well being of the middle class to diminish. For the lootocracy, the ideal situation is for the vast majority of the country to be what we now consider to be lower middle class, just above the poverty level. It looks better on paper.

 

[senseamp]

 

[ElFenix]

This is the same reason we don't measure with furlongs anymore.

I'm not seeing your point.

it's background information. there is no point except generally improved knowledge.