US Grand Prix!!!

[mAdD INDIAN]

Originally posted by: bR
Good thing you missed out on that farce... it was an ugly sight seeing fans boo, throw debris on the track, holding up signs of "refund" and "fvck you michelin". At around $60-70 a ticket, I don't blame them.

$60-70 for a ticket?? Maybe for Gen Admissions! The people who are sitting in the grandstands paid atleast $200 for a seat!

it was a sad race, and it was Michelin's fault; not FIA or Ferrari.

if FIA had changed the rules it would have set a sad precedent of helping a competitor because of hteir own mistake. If Bridgestone had this problem, it would have been a non-issue.

On a happy note, I'm glad I went to Montreal to watch hte race there live! It was awesome!

 

[MrMitch]

Outside of the fans, Tony George and company are the losers. I was very glad to see him boycott the podium. Makes you wonder about the IRL, its no secert that George is funding many of the lower teams and that money comes from the profit of the F1/Nascar events, so if refunds and/or no more USGP, could have an effect on the IRL.

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: bR

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

Originally posted by: bR

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer

Originally posted by: bR

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer
well that was a waste. complete crock...wasnt even a 6 car race, it was a 2 car race and you know full well ross braun will try his hardest to make sure Schumacher wins so basically a 1.5 car race. completely rubbish, i wont be supprised if F1 doesnt return next year. they need to sort out who runs the F1 as a whole, its like the flipping european union, too many people wanna try their hand at running the sport...and this is what happens, idiotic rules get made up, you have a couple of different groups of people all vouching for the same thing and they cant agree on anything....michelin are to blame but the blame doesnt lie solely with them

the FIA, team bosses, GPWC, and the drivers group (what ever that is) must have some of the blame reside with them also

Why is the FIA to blame for this? Those new tire regulations are crap sure, but Bridgestone didn't have a problem. GPWC? What does the GPWC have to do with this? Minardi is part of the GPWC and they were racing today. Driver's group? What were they going to do if the team told them they can't race?

sorry i havent been clear...my point is theres all these groups to have a say in whats what...and becuase of that none of them can work together to solve anything. miniardi wern't gonna race, neither were jordan, then jordan decided against what they'd agreed to and miniardi went back on their word....ferrari as usual werent having any of it, michelin teams asked for a chicane to be put in, and the FIA turn round and remind them about some stupid rule.

michelin offered to ship new tyres over night, again the FIA turn round to remind them that it'll break 5 different rules. bridgestone runners said why should they get penalised for something that isnt their fault

and with all this disagreement going on......they forgot completely as to why 100+ thousand people were sitting in the stands

they came to see a race, and the people in charge of the F1 world were more bothered about themselves and probably their money

you can blame who you want...for me theyre all as bad as each other, and if i was there id be asking for a refund

Well Iagree with that, those guys were all adults who couldn't reach a compromise and we were left to watch a joke of a race.

But I'm not going to take anything away from the Bridgestone runners, I honestly don't think any of this is their fault. If there was someone that could've prevented all this it was definitely Michelin. After that, well it's pretty much finger pointing at everybody.

ok ill agree with that...michelin definatley deserve the majority of blame, but ill stand by my opinion that they shouldnt be the only ones. put it this way, the other guys at the top didnt really help the issue did they?

also people always give the impression that ferrari always have something todo with whats happening...yes they were the only team who didnt agree to what the other 9 agreed, but at the end of the day why should they? the michelin runners never listened when ferrari had a plea against the tire rules.

Well yea the FIA did shoot down every alternative the Michelin teams proposed. I think that was to show that they're not going to bend down for them just because Michelin got themselves in deep sh*t. I don't think it was worth it though... those fans deserved better.

I don't like the IRL but seeing Tony George take the heat on the podium made me think a little better of him.

Michelin ignored the FIA's suggestions, such as going slower in that last turn.
Both people refused each others ideas, the FIA because they broke the rules which had been known about.
Michelin rubbished the FiA proposals because it would make their cars less competetive.

Now you tell me, is the FiA or Michelin more to blame?

Michelin has sent a second letter to the FIA reiterating its request for a chicane at turn 13, but the FIA has responded firmly.

"Your teams have a choice of running more slowly in Turn 12/13, running a tyre not used in qualifying (which would attract a penalty) or repeatedly changing a tyre (subject to valid safety reasons)," Whiting replied.

"It is for them to decide. We have nothing to add."

In bold are the solutions, 3 of them, one which would not break or risk breaking any rules.
There was a solution, Michelin chose not to take note of it because they did not like it.

 

[CFster]

Michelin ignored the FIA's suggestions, such as going slower in that last turn.
Both people refused each others ideas, the FIA because they broke the rules which had been known about.
Michelin rubbished the FiA proposals because it would make their cars less competetive.

Now you tell me, is the FiA or Michelin more to blame?

I'd like somebody to explain to me how you make the cars go slower through a particular corner. The rev limiter comes on through turn 13? Come on.

You're telling me that if two guys are side by side through 13 one of them isn't going to put pedal down.

That's the most ridiculous request I've ever heard from the FIA.

And repeatedly changing the tires? How do you determine how often to do that, and suppose a tire fails anyway - I guess you didn't change it enough. Did a sixth grader write that letter?

They're both to blame. Michelin for botching it up in the first place, and the FIA for not saving the situation (they'll pay more than Michelin probably).

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: CFster

Michelin ignored the FIA's suggestions, such as going slower in that last turn.
Both people refused each others ideas, the FIA because they broke the rules which had been known about.
Michelin rubbished the FiA proposals because it would make their cars less competetive.

Now you tell me, is the FiA or Michelin more to blame?

I'd like somebody to explain to me how you make the cars go slower through a particular corner. The rev limiter comes on through turn 13? Come on.

You're telling me that if two guys are side by side through 13 one of them isn't going to put pedal down.

They're both to blame. Michelin for botching it up in the first place, and the FIA for not saving the situation (they'll pay more than Michelin probably).

You say to the driver: Drive slower through turn 13 or risk crashing and suffering a serious injury.
Also, why in thee HELL should the FiA fix Michelins mistake?
Tell me this: If ONE team had an aero part which failed, should the FiA change the whole track and bend rules so that teams car will be OK for the race? Answer: NO.
I believe in the past a similar situation has occured, and individual teams have had issues with cars where they have deemed them unsafe to race (eg: aero parts are not safe enough and may fall off) so they have witdrawn from the race.

Tyres are part of a car, as are wings and everything else.
If the tyres fail and make the car unsafe, the team has the option to pull out of the race.
That happened. Why should the rules be broken more now than ever before?
Why should the Bridgestone runners be disadvantaged because Michelin brought a shoddy piece of car to the race?

Answer: They shouldn't.
It's not the FiA's fault, they don't have to make concessions, nor would they be expected to if just one team had an issue.

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: MrMitch
Outside of the fans, Tony George and company are the losers. I was very glad to see him boycott the podium. Makes you wonder about the IRL, its no secert that George is funding many of the lower teams and that money comes from the profit of the F1/Nascar events, so if refunds and/or no more USGP, could have an effect on the IRL.

Tony George did not boycott the podium, he was the one that presented all the trophies instead of whoever was assigned for them just to save their face. You're right though, he and the fans today are the biggest losers unfortunately.

 

[Salvador]

It was a complete joke. F1 politics. :disgust: What I think that they should've done was put the chicane in so they could race and let the FIA pull sanctioning on the race. Then, the race would've been a scratch for everyone as far as points and the fans would've gotten to see what they went there to see. F1 forgets that they wouldn't even have a race if it weren't for the fans.

I am (was) a huge F1 fan and I wouldn't care if they didn't come back after this nonesense. I don't like Indy anyway for an F1 venue.

Sal

 

[boyRacer]

I wish this happened at the next race instead, which is Michelin's home race.

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: Salvador
It was a complete joke. F1 politics. :disgust: What I think that they should've done was put the chicane in so they could race and let the FIA pull sanctioning on the race. Then, the race would've been a scratch for everyone as far as points and the fans would've gotten to see what they went there to see. F1 forgets that they wouldn't even have a race if it weren't for the fans.

I am (was) a huge F1 fan and I wouldn't care if they didn't come back after this nonesense. I don't like Indy anyway for an F1 venue.

Sal

To be fair, it isn't even the track's fault that those Michelins can't handle the load. But maybe they should move the GP to Long Beach instead so I can go.

 

[otispunkmeyer]

Originally posted by: Lonyo

Originally posted by: CFster

Michelin ignored the FIA's suggestions, such as going slower in that last turn.
Both people refused each others ideas, the FIA because they broke the rules which had been known about.
Michelin rubbished the FiA proposals because it would make their cars less competetive.

Now you tell me, is the FiA or Michelin more to blame?

I'd like somebody to explain to me how you make the cars go slower through a particular corner. The rev limiter comes on through turn 13? Come on.

You're telling me that if two guys are side by side through 13 one of them isn't going to put pedal down.

They're both to blame. Michelin for botching it up in the first place, and the FIA for not saving the situation (they'll pay more than Michelin probably).

You say to the driver: Drive slower through turn 13 or risk crashing and suffering a serious injury.
Also, why in thee HELL should the FiA fix Michelins mistake?
Tell me this: If ONE team had an aero part which failed, should the FiA change the whole track and bend rules so that teams car will be OK for the race? Answer: NO.
I believe in the past a similar situation has occured, and individual teams have had issues with cars where they have deemed them unsafe to race (eg: aero parts are not safe enough and may fall off) so they have witdrawn from the race.

Tyres are part of a car, as are wings and everything else.
If the tyres fail and make the car unsafe, the team has the option to pull out of the race.
That happened. Why should the rules be broken more now than ever before?
Why should the Bridgestone runners be disadvantaged because Michelin brought a shoddy piece of car to the race?

Answer: They shouldn't.
It's not the FiA's fault, they don't have to make concessions, nor would they be expected to if just one team had an issue.

great post

both ends rejected each others ideas,

however going slow in that last corner isnt really viable, how slow is slow? your gonna have people trip over each other, and your gonna have the bridgestone runners going flat out. these guys are race drivers...they will throw caution to the wind in the heat of the moment, regardless of what might happen. going slow isnt racing.

repeated tyre changes seemed reasonable to me, surely the FIA could of just lifted the penalty for changing the tyres for this one race. but they stuck to their guns, and obviously the teams arent gonna take part in a race that gets them no where.

personally for me the idea that coulthard told the ITV people would of been my choice. put in a temporary chicane, and just bump the bridgestone runners to the front of the grid...seemed very fair to me, an eye for an eye kinda thing, but nothing was done about it.

michelin made a boob, but someone had to do it. F1 is the bleeding edge of technology, tyres play a massive role in the speed and handling of the cars, specially in corners. michelin obviously are pushing the envelope of performance in their tyre designs...eeking out the absolute maximum performance. this obviously comes with greater risk.

bridgestone, are a more conservative bunch, yes they make good tyres but their main focus is reliability...plus they had the better knowledge of the brick yard through firestone.

michelin being a european company have little opertunity to test on oval's, especially ones that have diamond cut surfaces.

michelin cant dig their way out of this now, its a hammer blow to them, and it only further fuels peoples arguments to make F1 a single tyre make affair. if michelin keep screwing up , bridgestone are gonna be the only ones left.

 

[CFster]

You say to the driver: Drive slower through turn 13 or risk crashing and suffering a serious injury.

How much slower, and you can never trust a race car driver to do it, in ANY form of motorsport. William's technical director stated that before the race. A ridiculous request.

Also, why in thee HELL should the FiA fix Michelins mistake?

In the interest of saving the USGP, which is a HUGE market. They've made plenty of changes to the rules in the past in their own interests as well.

Tell me this: If ONE team had an aero part which failed, should the FiA change the whole track and bend rules so that teams car will be OK for the race? Answer: NO.

Correct. However, when 80% of the field can't race, the governing body should bend a little.

Why should the Bridgestone runners be disadvantaged because Michelin brought a shoddy piece of car to the race?

This isn't Saturday night circle track racing. This is big business on a global scale. The fact is nobody would have been disadvantaged by putting a chicane on the track. It would have been a level playing field for all, Bridgestone or Michelin. Bridgestone (Ferrari) protested putting the chicane out there for obvious reasons. If they had been sportsmanlike they would have pulled out of the event too.

It's not the FiA's fault, they don't have to make concessions, nor would they be expected to if just one team had an issue.

It's their stupid one tire rule that put them in this prediciment. We saw it several weeks ago with Kimi's tire failure. Having a tire war with a rule like that is asking for disaster. Either do away with the one tire rule, or one of the tire suppliers.

Their calls have been way over the top several times in the past. Guess what, the FIA is going to pay dearly for their mistake this time.

 

[CFster]

BTW, Bridgestone hasn't exactly been careful either. Earlier in the season they had several failures - which would have been more evident if more teams had been running them. They were desperate to equal Michelin's performance and were making sacrifices.

Also, Bridgestone couldn't have gained any kind of usefull data from Firestone. There's a night and day difference between an IndyCar tire and an F1 tire. And on essentially different circuits too.

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: otispunkmeyer
great post

both ends rejected each others ideas,

however going slow in that last corner isnt really viable, how slow is slow? your gonna have people trip over each other, and your gonna have the bridgestone runners going flat out. these guys are race drivers...they will throw caution to the wind in the heat of the moment, regardless of what might happen. going slow isnt racing.

repeated tyre changes seemed reasonable to me, surely the FIA could of just lifted the penalty for changing the tyres for this one race. but they stuck to their guns, and obviously the teams arent gonna take part in a race that gets them no where.

personally for me the idea that coulthard told the ITV people would of been my choice. put in a temporary chicane, and just bump the bridgestone runners to the front of the grid...seemed very fair to me, an eye for an eye kinda thing, but nothing was done about it.

michelin made a boob, but someone had to do it. F1 is the bleeding edge of technology, tyres play a massive role in the speed and handling of the cars, specially in corners. michelin obviously are pushing the envelope of performance in their tyre designs...eeking out the absolute maximum performance. this obviously comes with greater risk.

bridgestone, are a more conservative bunch, yes they make good tyres but their main focus is reliability...plus they had the better knowledge of the brick yard through firestone.

michelin being a european company have little opertunity to test on oval's, especially ones that have diamond cut surfaces.

michelin cant dig their way out of this now, its a hammer blow to them, and it only further fuels peoples arguments to make F1 a single tyre make affair. if michelin keep screwing up , bridgestone are gonna be the only ones left.

The FIA said there would be no punishments for the repeated tire changes in the name of safety. that was in the letter from Charlie Whiting to Michelin. Michelin refused the idea because it would amount to a gap between the bridgestone runners and those that run michelin. People at the atlasf1.com have said that Bridgestone does not use Firestone information for the track because they have nothing to gain from it considering the differences between the track layouts, the longevity of the tires, and the cars running them. I don't know if that's true or not.

This is definitely the result of the tire war unfortunately.

 

[CFster]

Yeah, and several teams said they were seeing problems after just a few laps.

What, do they come in and change tires every 5 laps to be safe?

 

[Lonyo]

Originally posted by: CFster
BTW, Bridgestone hasn't exactly been careful either. Earlier in the season they had several failures - which would have been more evident if more teams had been running them. They were desperate to equal Michelin's performance and were making sacrifices.

Also, Bridgestone couldn't have gained any kind of usefull data from Firestone. There's a night and day difference between an IndyCar tire and an F1 tire. And on essentially different circuits too.

I "internally" had an outcry when Schumi had 2 blowouts a few races back, but no one cared, even the commentators didn't bother.
That's why I have NO sympathy now for any team that is running Michelin.
If Bridgestone had issues before, and nothing was done, why do something for Michelin?
IIRC< in the race with Schumi's double blow, a Sauber also had a failure, and then there's Kimi's failure.
If the FiA were going to do something, they should have done it already, this makes 3 races where tyres have caused problems, but since they did nothing with the other 2 races, I don't see why they should or would make an exception now.

 

[SCSIRAID]

Originally posted by: UNCjigga
Interesting speculation from the commentators: FireStone (tire supplier for NASCAR and Indy) could have learned more about the new surface and turns and shared that information with Bridgestone (sister company) putting them at an advantage over Michelin.

Honestly I don't really think it is Michelin's fault--more a fault of having stupid, stupid rules this year (I could be biased since I was never much of an F1 fan.) But then again, why hadn't they been testing at that track?

Anyways, if Bridgestone teams do get points, this could be ugly. Michelin could pull their support of F1, and if France follows suit then imagine if Renault pulls out this season!!! :Q

Firestone doesnt supply tires to NASCAR. Goodyear does. All NASCAR teams run Goodyear by rule.

I dont consider this Michelins fault either. Michelin had a concern for safety and asked for a rules break to replace the tires or a track adjustment to slow the max cornering speeds. FIA declined both requests. There is enough risk in the sport without the possibility of defective tires. Seems like we should be applauding Michelin for putting the drivers safety first.

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: SCSIRAID

Originally posted by: UNCjigga
Interesting speculation from the commentators: FireStone (tire supplier for NASCAR and Indy) could have learned more about the new surface and turns and shared that information with Bridgestone (sister company) putting them at an advantage over Michelin.

Honestly I don't really think it is Michelin's fault--more a fault of having stupid, stupid rules this year (I could be biased since I was never much of an F1 fan.) But then again, why hadn't they been testing at that track?

Anyways, if Bridgestone teams do get points, this could be ugly. Michelin could pull their support of F1, and if France follows suit then imagine if Renault pulls out this season!!! :Q

Firestone doesnt supply tires to NASCAR. Goodyear does. All NASCAR teams run Goodyear by rule.

I dont consider this Michelins fault either. Michelin had a concern for safety and asked for a rules break to replace the tires or a track adjustment to slow the max cornering speeds. FIA declined both requests. There is enough risk in the sport without the possibility of defective tires. Seems like we should be applauding Michelin for putting the drivers safety first.

If the FIA agreed to Michelin's request what's to stop Bridgestone from bringing a qualifying tire for the next race, then telling the FIA that it's unsafe so they can bring in a race tire? Where do you draw the line?

Bridgestone was in a world of crap earlier this year and no one gave them any hand outs. Michelin was supposed to bring back up tires in case something goes wrong with the primary tire but their primary and backup are the same tires supposedly.

 

[boyRacer]

How can they say no to this? Cmon...

BTW, Tony George puts the blame on Michelin, the FIA and Bernie Ecclestone's Formula One Management (FOM)

 

[KokomoGSTmp]

Whatever happened to the option of running tires that Michelin had flow over direct from Europe? The FIA seemed fairly adamant that it wasn't an option.

Driving away fans from a market that was on the verge of slipping away anywho seems like a great idea to me!! Yes, lets alienate one of the biggest crowds and largest markets in the world because we need to stick by our rules. What the heck are the rules for? Are they for enforcement or are they for the spirit of fair play and safety?

I definitely think a lot of drivers knew exactly how unhappy the fans would be and how much of a crock it was going to turn into if they weren't able to race. You could hear it in the voice of DC and you could definite hear the disappointment in many drivers' voices after they pulled into the garages.

 

[Cristatus]

So does this mean that Bridgestone tires are better than Michelin tires?

 

[CFster]

Both tire manufacturers usually bring a hard and soft compound to each race. That's what Friday practice is for - the teams asses each tire and make a determination as to which they will run for the rest of the weekend.

They did in fact have two Michelin compounds at Indy. However, while they had slightly different compounds, the general construction of the tire was the same and would have made no difference.

Michelin later determined that the third type of tire they were having flown over would have ALSO failed as well.

 

[boyRacer]

Originally posted by: KokomoGSTmp
Whatever happened to the option of running tires that Michelin had flow over direct from Europe? The FIA seemed fairly adamant that it wasn't an option.

Driving away fans from a market that was on the verge of slipping away anywho seems like a great idea to me!! Yes, lets alienate one of the biggest crowds and largest markets in the world because we need to stick by our rules. What the heck are the rules for? Are they for enforcement or are they for the spirit of fair play and safety?

I definitely think a lot of drivers knew exactly how unhappy the fans would be and how much of a crock it was going to turn into if they weren't able to race. You could hear it in the voice of DC and you could definite hear the disappointment in many drivers' voices after they pulled into the garages.

Michelin said they abandoned the idea of flying the tires they used in Barcelona because they don't know how it would behave on this track which would be just as dangerous as letting them race on those "unsafe" tires they have now.

Even if the FIA did let them use it, would they let Bridgestone do the same thing in the next race?

 

[boyRacer]

This was the strangest starting grid I have ever seen...

 

[DingDingDao]

Couple of thoughts:

1) To blame FIA is absurd. The teams knew the rules, Michelin knew the rules, and when it came to race time it was Michelin who couldn't field a race-worthy tire. To put a chicane in because some of the teams have a tire that can't handle turn 13 would be extremely unsportmanlike (by improving the 14 cars who had Michelins).

2) Michelin is entirely to blame in this matter--it's not like Indy is a new circuit. They've been here for a long time (long before the U.S. Grand Prix came back), and they know Turn 1 (or Turn 13, I guess) as well as any tire manufacturer. To not have a backup tire that is stronger (albeit less grippy) than the race tires is just stupid. That's what backup tires are for--in case the primaries fail.

3) I feel really awful for the fans. This is just the worst thing that could have ever happened, at one of the newest and finest race circuits in F1. I hope they come back next year. I hope the fans can find it in their hearts to forgive them. I know I'm really trying hard to

 

[Grant]

I have to agree that this is totally Michelins fault for not providing a tire that would handle the track. YOu have to have feel bad for the fans, because they didn't get to see what was expected. Michelin should face up to their problem and refund the price of the tickets to all the fans.