US plans death camp

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
I know we want to be open and transparent because we are fair.

HJ, don't forget we have to bring all those foreign torturers over here first to train them in the School of the Americas before we sent them home with the proper techniques. The inefficiency is appalling.

If we do this perhaps we can break even.. but, to do the whole lot here we can control the information gathered.... spin... it is the reason for the season. Al Jeezera may let the alligator out of the bag... and once out ya can't put it back in the tube..

 

[Moonbeam]

Al Jeezera may let the alligator out of the bag... and once out ya can't put it back in the tube..
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Ain't that the truth.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Sorry, but I have 0 sympathy for these prisoners. They have released all the ones that they thought were innocent. Everybody else is either a murderer a future-murderer or someone that wants to help a murderer.

I've never heard anything more Orwellian. That's just too much blind faith in the government.

As long as we can speak out against the government without being executed like is being done in some countries *cough* Iraq, Cuba, China, North Korea <insert POS country here>and exercise more freedom than any other nation on this green earth...then call me Orwellian

Well as long as you get your rights, who gives a damn about anyone else, right?

as opposed to imposing our yankee imperialism on impressionable countries?

 

[EXman]

Maybe the base at Guantanamo Bay should be renamed to Auschwitz 2.

not funny and not close... offensive to anyone touched by the Nazi's or with a sence of history.

 

[Moonbeam]

not funny and not close... offensive to anyone touched by the Nazi's or with a sence of history.
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And we don't want it to become close either. That will not happen if too many people are unwilling to examine trends because they live with the illusion that history can't repeat itself or is too sacred to have lessons drawn from it. There is no question in my mind that our curent trends are moving us in that direction.

 

[Corn]

There is no question in my mind that our curent trends are moving us in that direction.

In your mind, of that there is no doubt Moonie.

 

[LunarRay]

Three points.

First: We seek to apply the same rationalization to the events in Gitmo as we apply to ourselves. The folks who are guilty care less about life or death for themselves or their prey. The folks who are innocent or mildly involved have little concern either. Muslim belief holds that all is the will of Allah. What ever happens does so in Allah's grand scheme. Their fate has already been decided in a higher court.

Second: The only way to combat the terrorist is to remove his weapon and his support. His weapon is our fear of him and his actions. His support is the nations that give him haven. We remove his haven by stating in the harshest terms possible that any attack by a terrorist group will result in the most responsive action upon the leadership of the nation or nations giving haven. We take away the weapon by not displaying fear. Turn off the colored lights of fear. Live life freely and without fear. If we are attacked again drop a few MOABs on the capital and destroy the leadership and keep doing it until someone decides to end the complicity with terror.

Third: I have sat on both US Jury and Military Court Martial. I have high regard for both systems but, the jury system, although having a stricter conviction ratio scheme, did not seem to have the same dedication to the evidence as the Court Martial system. I sat through hours of extremely deep discussion where all the evidence was examined and debated and pulled apart and reexamined over and over again. In the end we were split for majority acquital... and we were wasted! The stress of that ordeal was incomprehensible. But, it was the fairest determination of guilt or innocence I think possible. If all Court Marshall trials are the same and are what will occur in Gitmo. I have no doubt the charged folks will find the American system of Military Justice is well and alive in Gitmo too.

 

[jackschmittusa]

HJD1

1. So, if these people think that whatever happens is Allah's will, we should do whatever we want to them and they won't blame us?
2. Yes we have been attacked, but the fear angle has been jacked around six ways to Sunday by Bush to convince us to yield rights and follow like frightened sheep. I almost consider Bush's manipulation and magnifacation of the fear angle to be giving aid to the enemy.
3. Would we rely on the same type of intel for deciding who aided the terrorists as we did to prove that Iraq had WMD? How many times could we say"Oops!" and still consider it an acceptable level of error? How would the rest of the world keep tally? How many civilians could we kill before we were the terrorists in the eyes of the rest of the world?
4. Military tribunals will not be conducted according to the UCMJ as is done in a court marshal. The politicians will draw up the rules. Bush has given me no cause to believe the rules will be fair and open either. I'm not even sure those words are in his vocabulary. At least by any definition that I am familiar with.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

I almost consider Bush's manipulation and magnifacation of the fear angle to be giving aid to the enemy.

There's no 'almost' in my mind about that.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: jackschmittusa
HJD1

1. So, if these people think that whatever happens is Allah's will, we should do whatever we want to them and they won't blame us?
2. Yes we have been attacked, but the fear angle has been jacked around six ways to Sunday by Bush to convince us to yield rights and follow like frightened sheep. I almost consider Bush's manipulation and magnifacation of the fear angle to be giving aid to the enemy.
3. Would we rely on the same type of intel for deciding who aided the terrorists as we did to prove that Iraq had WMD? How many times could we say"Oops!" and still consider it an acceptable level of error? How would the rest of the world keep tally? How many civilians could we kill before we were the terrorists in the eyes of the rest of the world?
4. Military tribunals will not be conducted according to the UCMJ as is done in a court marshal. The politicians will draw up the rules. Bush has given me no cause to believe the rules will be fair and open either. I'm not even sure those words are in his vocabulary. At least by any definition that I am familiar with.

I think I said the Muslim believes that all things are the will of Allah and within Allah's grand scheme of things... if we did something it would be according to Allah's will. We would, of course, be the perpetrator of the issue or act but, Allah allowed it and it may be also Allah's will that they respond in an effort to rid earth of the pagan and it too would be part of Allah's plan for humanity.

I think I am done being afeared of what I can't do anything about anyway... at least I can preserve what rights I have left.

The intel to support the response would be what we have and it would stand on its own merit regarding the oops factor. The collaterial death issue is a tuffy. I am of the opinion that to stop terrorism we either give up or respond in massive response. I'm glad I only get to propose and not dispose. But, if I were president I'd probably respond in some massive way consistent with my intel. Oops factor or not... if their government wishes to end my careless attitude (supposed) they would know how to do it. I'm more interested in how US folks feel. The rest second but, a consideration.

No UCMJ... ok My ignorance... sorry. Too bad though. It would be a good way to go.
edit
here is a quote I found
Some of the initial criticism was tempered when the administration issued detailed rules for tribunals in March that would give defendants many traditional legal rights. Defendants still do not have full constitutional protection, and the standards of evidence are looser before a tribunal than before a traditional criminal court.

From here

The details of this tribunal I'm still trying to find.



Here are rules the rules I think


PDF The lastest rules I guess

 

[UltraQuiet]

I'm pretty sure the rules for the tribunals have already been promulgated. A search should yield some results.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Ultra Quiet
I'm pretty sure the rules for the tribunals have already been promulgated. A search should yield some results.

I think the links I've edited into the my earlier post have the rules as pdf.

 

[Warin]

Originally posted by: Nitemare<brAnyone that plots and schemes to rob innocent civilians of their life have forfeited any rights to live...imho that is.

Ahhh. So when are Bush, Rumsfeld and Franks expected to report to Camp Delta for internment?

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: Warin

Originally posted by: Nitemare<brAnyone that plots and schemes to rob innocent civilians of their life have forfeited any rights to live...imho that is.

Ahhh. So when are Bush, Rumsfeld and Franks expected to report to Camp Delta for internment?

Lol, well put, although I wouldn't include Franks simply because he's a soldier, not a policy maker.

 

[Warin]

Originally posted by: BlinderBomber

Lol, well put, although I wouldn't include Franks simply because he's a soldier, not a policy maker.

Good point.

Being a little more on topic, all of these reports look like they are generated from the same source. There is little to none in the way of actual substantiation.

At the risk of sounding like I am kissing American booty, I think these claims are pretty baseless.

I doubt that the US governent would have a problem sentencing a proven terrorist to death. But you can bet it would be done totally above the board. Executions of foreign nationals in a prison camp just makes for bad press, and I dont think Dubya needs any more of that. The economy is bad enough

So until it starts leaking out that all the internees at Delta are dead, I am not going to put a lot of stock in talks of a death camp. Call me naive if you want...

 

[Dari]

They should let a herd of pigs loose in the camp and watch the spectacle.

 

[konichiwa]

Originally posted by: Dari
They should let a herd of pigs loose in the camp and watch the spectacle.

Idiot of the Day Award #112 goes to: Dari

 

[UltraQuiet]

Originally posted by: konichiwa

Originally posted by: Dari
They should let a herd of pigs loose in the camp and watch the spectacle.

Idiot of the Day Award #112 goes to: Dari

So your streak is broken at 111 consecutive days.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Warin

Originally posted by: Nitemare<brAnyone that plots and schemes to rob innocent civilians of their life have forfeited any rights to live...imho that is.

Ahhh. So when are Bush, Rumsfeld and Franks expected to report to Camp Delta for internment?

Hell let's make it retroactive as well. We can execute all of the soldiers who served in Vietnam, Korea, Noriega removal, and any skirmish we ever fault in because according to your definition collateral damage is just as bad as targeting civilians...

 

[Vickas]

This is beginning to disgust me. All your talk about "acceptable loss" seems to limit it's definition to foreigners who happen to be somewhere around the Middle East.

When you're talking about killing, there is NO such thing as "acceptable loss." It is, in fact, unacceptable.

If, say the U.S. was a very war torn, unstable region, and some country, let's say India (a very democratic system might I add exists there) gets attacked by a well known terrorist living in the United States.

Then India decides to retaliate, starts rooting out terrorists all over the place in North America. Decides, Hey! Canada's got an unreasonable dictator that is abusing his power. Let's get rid of him.

So in goes India's army, and the war's over in several weeks.

India begins planning to circumvent all those international Commissions and Standards groups, and starts planning a camp to convict, try, and execute people India doesnt like, somewhere around Buffalo, or Rhode Island.

So it end's up that a few Americans get stuck in this camp. Nobody from India's ever heard of them or really cares who they are. Considers that if a couple of people like this died, it would be an "acceptable loss."

Now how would you feel, if you were one of them. Never really took part in any of the Wars, fighting, and always practiced your religion faithfully (or in the case of atheism, practiced no religion).

You stand in front of this tribunal, which seems to deem it an acceptable risk that they haven't found out much about you. But there's a chance, that you might've killed someone in your lifetime, so they sentence you to death.

Hardly seems fair does it?

 

[Moonbeam]

Don't ask people who are afraid to have perspective, Vickas. Fear is the mind killer. People will accept anything so long as they feel safe.

 

[amcdonald]

Its nice to see you took the time to come up with a pleasant metaphor, but it simply doesn't make sense.
The difference in the 2 scenarios is that we act with a certain degree of diplomacy, while countries such as Iraq do not.
If it is obvious (not just alleged, but proven with evidence) that the US has terrorists within its borders, it will comply with other nations to apprehend them, as do most countries, like germany, italy, etc.
The problem with many middle-eastern countries is that we have to bribe them with grants and aid in order to search for terrorists, if they will allow us to at all.

You stand in front of this tribunal, which seems to deem it an acceptable risk that they haven't found out much about you. But there's a chance, that you might've killed someone in your lifetime, so they sentence you to death. Hardly seems fair does it?

About as fair as your analogies & assumptions. Are you just making up this tribunal stuff? Do you really think thats the goal? ...Sentancing people to death on a whim to gain political points? Seriously... Thats not a PR campaign, thats political suicide. Like warin said.

Your naivety about acceptable losses and saying that all killing is unacceptable is childish. In order to prevent American tragedy due to terrorism we simply have to exhaust all means of defense. The terrorists have changed the game, and we are responding accordingly.

 

[Moonbeam]

Your naivety about acceptable losses and saying that all killing is unacceptable is childish. In order to prevent American tragedy due to terrorism we simply have to exhaust all means of defense. The terrorists have changed the game, and we are responding accordingly.
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Joe McCarthy couldn't have said it better. The translation is we are a bunch of frightened cowards who have no faith in our system when somebody scares us. 'That's not fair, don't test me, I'll fail and you'll make me feel bad'. Our high ideasl are for show only. When the chips are down we piss in our pants and kill. We don't deserve to be free. We don't deserve to be Americans. Give me liberty or give me death. RIIIIIIIIIIIGHT! ME not YOU!

 

[styelers]

Thats scary and sad.

 

[Corn]

Idiot of the Day Award #112 goes to: Dari

Hip hop hip hop hip-ocrisy hip hop...........