US protectionism- for or against?

[BlahBlahYouToo]

simple poll. for or against?

P&N'd

ATOT Moderator ElFenix

 

[Barfo]

against

 

[xochi]

against

 

[MovingTarget]

for.

(it'll never happen though...)

 

[SunnyD]

<--- P&N, that way.

 

[Linflas]

Too complex for a simple yes or no blanket answer.

 

[spidey07]

For in some ways. Not flat out protectionism but incenting production of goods and services here instead of somewhere else is a good idea.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Linflas
Too complex for a simple yes or no blanket answer.

Originally posted by: spidey07
For in some ways. Not flat out protectionism but incenting production of goods and services here instead of somewhere else is a good idea.

Agreed. I'm for some limited protectionism, and when countries use their laws to restrict the US selling goods in their nations, I believe we should then recriprocate and use those exact same laws for goods from that nation.

I don't know if it still goes on today, but IIRC, at one time, every US car imported to Japan had to be dismantled and inspected before it could be "imported," driving the net price way up. Imagine if every car imported FROM Japan had to go through the same process.

Same with foodstuffs from the USA. At one time, much of the food we sent TO Japan sat on the docks and rotted...and IIRC, we STILL aren't allowed to export rice to Japan. (or only in limited quantities as protection for Japanese rice farmers/sellers)

 

[Mahaguru]

Do outsourcing and H1-B visas count in this?

 

[Chryso]

Originally posted by: Mahaguru
Do outsourcing and H1-B visas count in this?

Outsourcing should.

 

[torpid]

I guess I'm for it, because I'm for ATOT protectionism wherein we prevent P&N trolling in this forum.

 

[deepred98]

against mostly

unless that country has protectionist policies against us *cough* japan *cough*

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: torpid
I guess I'm for it, because I'm for ATOT protectionism wherein we prevent P&N trolling in this forum.

If we can keep politics out of it and deal with the question at hand then we can have a good discussion about it. Just because protectionism has a bad connotation for some people doesn't mean it's political.

 

[dphantom]

Against, no sense in making things any worse.

 

[Andrew111]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Linflas
Too complex for a simple yes or no blanket answer.

Originally posted by: spidey07
For in some ways. Not flat out protectionism but incenting production of goods and services here instead of somewhere else is a good idea.

Agreed. I'm for some limited protectionism, and when countries use their laws to restrict the US selling goods in their nations, I believe we should then recriprocate and use those exact same laws for goods from that nation.

So you're fine with limited protectionism but don't like it when other countries do it to us? This is how it spirals out of control....when one country caves in to protectionist sentiment other countries do the same in return. The Great Depression is a fine example of why protectionism is utter stupidity and hurts everyone......trying to protect jobs/goods from your country but it led to an even more significant drop in global trade and made things much worse.

Protectionism is never good in the long run......some countries are simply better at manufacturing/producing specific products and it's folly to invoke trade barriers so your inferior products can compete. The economy would be much better off by simply moving to industries the country is better suited for instead of propping up ailing industries. It leads to loss of jobs in the short term from the ailing industry but leads to more jobs in better industries in the long term.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Andrew111

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Linflas
Too complex for a simple yes or no blanket answer.

Originally posted by: spidey07
For in some ways. Not flat out protectionism but incenting production of goods and services here instead of somewhere else is a good idea.

Agreed. I'm for some limited protectionism, and when countries use their laws to restrict the US selling goods in their nations, I believe we should then recriprocate and use those exact same laws for goods from that nation.

So you're fine with limited protectionism but don't like it when other countries do it to us? This is how it spirals out of control....when one country caves in to protectionist sentiment other countries do the same in return. The Great Depression is a fine example of why protectionism is utter stupidity and hurts everyone......trying to protect jobs/goods from your country but it led to an even more significant drop in global trade and made things much worse.

Protectionism is never good in the long run......some countries are simply better at manufacturing/producing specific products and it's folly to invoke trade barriers so your inferior products can compete. The economy would be much better off by simply moving to industries the country is better suited for instead of propping up ailing industries. It leads to loss of jobs in the short term from the ailing industry but leads to more jobs in better industries in the long term.

I'm sure all the folks who have lost good-paying factory jobs to China think that their McJobs are far better...


BUT, I'm glad to see that you caught my point...We have numerous protectionist laws used against us, why is it bad if we use the same laws against those nations?

Personally, I think the US would be a far better place if we'd quit importing so many cheaply made products from China and started making them here again. (cheap not only in price but quality as well) The USA used to build quality products...with the kind of quality that the workers were proud of...

 

[BoberFett]

Not for direct protectionism, but we should look into tariff's on countries we have large trade imbalances with.

 

[scruffypup]

Against as well,...

Free trade enables other countries to have stronger economies and in turn bolster other nations economies and so on,... ie global economy

Protectionism I think cannot be done in this day and age effectively like it might have been at previous points in history. The United States could not effectively isolate its economy and be healthy,... and that is what protectionism could lead to.

 

[Genx87]

Has protectionism\isolationism ever provided a higher standard of living?

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Andrew111

Originally posted by: BoomerD

Originally posted by: Linflas
Too complex for a simple yes or no blanket answer.

Originally posted by: spidey07
For in some ways. Not flat out protectionism but incenting production of goods and services here instead of somewhere else is a good idea.

Agreed. I'm for some limited protectionism, and when countries use their laws to restrict the US selling goods in their nations, I believe we should then recriprocate and use those exact same laws for goods from that nation.

So you're fine with limited protectionism but don't like it when other countries do it to us? This is how it spirals out of control....when one country caves in to protectionist sentiment other countries do the same in return. The Great Depression is a fine example of why protectionism is utter stupidity and hurts everyone......trying to protect jobs/goods from your country but it led to an even more significant drop in global trade and made things much worse.

Protectionism is never good in the long run......some countries are simply better at manufacturing/producing specific products and it's folly to invoke trade barriers so your inferior products can compete. The economy would be much better off by simply moving to industries the country is better suited for instead of propping up ailing industries. It leads to loss of jobs in the short term from the ailing industry but leads to more jobs in better industries in the long term.

I'm sure all the folks who have lost good-paying factory jobs to China think that their McJobs are far better...


BUT, I'm glad to see that you caught my point...We have numerous protectionist laws used against us, why is it bad if we use the same laws against those nations?

Personally, I think the US would be a far better place if we'd quit importing so many cheaply made products from China and started making them here again. (cheap not only in price but quality as well) The USA used to build quality products...with the kind of quality that the workers were proud of...

I'm against protectionism.

One of the things that bothers me about people like you is that you are trying to paint a false picture where we don't have any protectionist laws and play completely fair while other countries do not. This is patently false.

Canada has in the past objected to our protectionist laws for our lumber industry. Our farming industry is heavily protected so poorer countries in Africa cannot compete.

As for our factory jobs leaving to China, I personally feel this is only temporary. In time, we will become competitive again and those factory jobs will return. The same thing was said about Japan -- if we don't buy American then the American car industry will collapse and all cars will be made in Japan. But what exactly happened? Japanese car companies built factories in the US and now supplies many Americans with good paying jobs.

Also, during this time another industry became very big -- the IT industry. When I was younger, I don't remember IT being a very big industry but now it seems every company has some need for an IT department which employs a lot of people. So, maybe the growth in IT jobs covered some of the loss of in industrial jobs during this period?

One complaint I heard about "American thinking" is that we think too much in the "short term" and not enough in the "long term". I think those who are for protectionism think too much in the "short term".

 

[woodie1]

Generally against but countries who have imposed unfair duties to our exports should be punished in one manner or the other.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: woodie1
Generally against but countries who have imposed unfair duties to our exports should be punished in one manner or the other.

How about the converse? We don't penalize other countries (well, aside from taxation today), but incent our own through tax breaks?

 

[NaughtyGeek]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Has protectionism\isolationism ever provided a higher standard of living?

I suppose that depends on how you look at it. Several decades ago, technology acted as it's own protectionist/isolationist mechanism and ensured a majority of production had to be accomplished on our own shores and we had the strongest manufacturing base in the world. Time moved on, technology got better and corporations found they could produce their products outside of our borders effectively while cutting their labor costs tremendously. Less labor cost, higher profits and poof the American worker was replaced by equivalent slave labor elsewhere. Had we enacted measures then that ensured that it was not economically viable to outsource our economy's base then, chances are our economy would be flourishing now. Instead, the consumers are making less money to consume with and the wealthy are leaving them in the dust financially. It's very profitable to hire slaves. Our manufacturing base has dwindled and our economy has gone with it. We avoided the pains of this policy coming home to roost by making credit available to everyone and now that's finally reaching the only end it ever could have come to. You can hide the economic realities of our "Free Trade" policy/mentality for only so long.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: NaughtyGeek

Originally posted by: Genx87
Has protectionism\isolationism ever provided a higher standard of living?

I suppose that depends on how you look at it. Several decades ago, technology acted as it's own protectionist/isolationist mechanism and ensured a majority of production had to be accomplished on our own shores and we had the strongest manufacturing base in the world. Time moved on, technology got better and corporations found they could produce their products outside of our borders effectively while cutting their labor costs tremendously. Less labor cost, higher profits and poof the American worker was replaced by equivalent slave labor elsewhere. Had we enacted measures then that ensured that it was not economically viable to outsource our economy's base then, chances are our economy would be flourishing now. Instead, the consumers are making less money to consume with and the wealthy are leaving them in the dust financially. It's very profitable to hire slaves. Our manufacturing base has dwindled and our economy has gone with it. We avoided the pains of this policy coming home to roost by making credit available to everyone and now that's finally reaching the only end it ever could have come to. You can hide the economic realities of our "Free Trade" policy/mentality for only so long.

What you describe is shedding of inefficient industries by moving them offshore. Those people who used to work in a factory now work behind a desk making the same or better money. Which job would you rather do? Factory or office work?

In what way would having those inefficient industries within our border "increase" our standard of living? It would end with a higher cost of product which adds burden onto the avg American. These jobs and companies would also be the first to collapse in economic times like this.

 

[NaughtyGeek]

I respectfully disagree. Many factories have automated most everything that can be automated. Compensated labor is not inefficient, it just actually has to be paid for. The average cost of goods in the US may be a small portion higher, but a manufacturing position in the US pays more than most any service industry position and that is where our economy has shifted to. Through this policy, the American worker has had to compete with labor being compensated at a grossly lower level.