US Rejects Afganistans offer.

[hungrypete]

<<

<< Then don't go. Don't support our military. But know that if you aren't willing to die to make sure American children stay safe for 50 years, you don't deserve all the liberties you enjoy. I feel very strongly about this. If we don't retaliate HARSHLY, then we might as well tell them to come on over and blow up whatever the hell they want because there will be no consequences. >>


Hold on now...you are taking this TOO far. No one is against/not supporting the military. I just don't want them going over there for all the wrong reasons.

You don't go shag the first girl that you see walking down the block. And you don't go bombing countries without undisputable evidence that they are at fault. >>



I realize this, but calling military retaliation an emotional response was perhaps a poor choice of words. It may well be an emtional response, but *I* feel it is going to be necessary to get a point across to people who have NO intention of negotiating diplomatically. They've already declared war on us, straight out of the horses mouth.

 

[Stark]

Tomorrow's weather in Afghanistan.

 

[hungrypete]

<< Tomorrow's weather in Afghanistan.
>>





I dont support nuking anyone, but some of this stuff puts a smile on my face.

 

[Amused]

<<

<< Then don't go. Don't support our military. But know that if you aren't willing to die to make sure American children stay safe for 50 years, you don't deserve all the liberties you enjoy. I feel very strongly about this. If we don't retaliate HARSHLY, then we might as well tell them to come on over and blow up whatever the hell they want because there will be no consequences. >>


Hold on now...you are taking this TOO far. No one is against/not supporting the military. I just don't want them going over there for all the wrong reasons.

You don't go shag the first girl that you see walking down the block. And you don't go bombing countries without undisputable evidence that they are at fault. >>



1. We have VERY compelling evidence that bin Laden is connected to this.

2. Our new objective is to neuter any and all terrorist organizations and force the countries that harbor and support them to end their activities, to stop this from happening again.

3. Afghanistan is harboring and supporting bin Laden.

4. bin Laden has been linked to FAR FAR more than just the WTC.

5. Going after him, and those who support him would only be a good thing. Not going after him and those who support him can only be harmful.

What kind of evidence do you need? An admission of guilt? bin Laden never admits to his terrorist acts. He thinks that by not doing so, he can avoid international outrage directed at him, and those who harbor and support him. Even IF (big if) he didn't do this, wiping him and the Taliban off the face of the earth can only be a good thing.

 

[rootaxs]

<< 1) Are you SURE they are going to Afghanistan???? 2) Are you SURE they haven't found conclusive evidence??? 3) Are you SURE they are even going to attack anyone......it could very well be a pre-emptive show of force >>



I could very well pass those questions back at ya
Seriously, most of the aircraft carriers are already headed "east" which goes to show they are planning something. The show of force, if anyone is well-informed of the Soviet attacks on Afghanistan, wouldn't bother the Taliban's given they know exactly how Afghan terrain is.



<< Then don't go. Don't support our military. But know that if you aren't willing to die to make sure American children stay safe for 50 years, you don't deserve all the liberties you enjoy. I feel very strongly about this. If we don't retaliate HARSHLY, then we might as well tell them to come on over and blow up whatever the hell they want because there will be no consequences. >>



As i said earlier, fighting/war is not always the answer. Do you really think a war of this magnitude (should it happen, God forbid) will end in a couple of weeks? If any it'll last at least several months or even a couple of years. And in that period of time there is surely going to be bloodshed with many American's dying and their families suffering. Given the current economy of the US it might even be brought down to it's knees.

Sure it's going to be "safe for 50 years" after the fight but you also have to weight all the other consequences of a war of this magnitude (World War baby).

I didn't say i wouldn't support the military. I support them and most *especially* the people of America, i'm just not so keen on Bush's decisions.

Am i being a pessimist here? No. I'm being realistic. Fighting only brings more bloodshed. If you felt so strongly about all those people dying in the WTC/Pentagon/Penn tragedy how is it that the same feelings aren't as felt for those American's that are about to die in a war? Is it because they "died for their country"? I wouldn't agree too much on that.

There's always multiple solutions to a single problem. Let's all be intelligent about it.

 

[arod]

I'll bet we already have concrete evidence, were just not telling anybody yet. Lets tell them exactly when we have collected enough evidence to go over there so they can get ready.....(i know they are already gfetting ready but they wont know for sure until it hits) Thats not smarl, Not telling us is. Im sure we will see the evidence when our missles have bombes the living hell out of them.

 

[MichaelD]

I've kept out of these discussions because they always seem to degenerate into flame wars. But I'll just say this.

1. The United States of America has been publicly humiliated and it's people killed in front of the eyes of the entire world.
2. This has happened before; the Embassy, the USS Cole. We played "The Strong, Silent Type" and did nothing
3. At this point, Bin Laden and all the other terrorists are the "Schoolyard Bully" If you punk out every time they come after you, they will never stop "beating you up."
4. Any future attacks will be of the same scale as what we just witnessed. Massive loss of life and property
5. The US is backed into a corner. We have no choice but to react decisively. If not, the people of this country and our allies and the countries we protect will lose faith in the US government. Not a good think.

Again, the rabid dog is out of it's cage and prowling the city, biting anyone it comes in contact with. We have no choice but to shoot the dog. The only thing these Medevil people understand and respect is violence. Back in NYC, I personally had contact with many of them every day. They are ignorant to a fault. They follow blindly and with total disregard for their own lives and property. If Osama told them all to strap C5 to their chests in run into shopping malls across America THEY WOULD DO IT INSTANTLY.

Please understand, I'm not a war monger. Many lives have been affected already, including mine. We have to end this while we still can. Now. Thanks for listening.

 

[Mangos]

"WTF do you expect from a culture that buries alive the widows of it's war dead? "

-It's a culture. It's different than your culture, but it's still a culture. It's part of their tradition. They will outgrow that tradition when they are ready, not when you say that they are ready. Perhaps hotdogs and baseball games are part of your culture, but those things are not part of the Afghan culture. Just because they believe in certain things doesn't mean that they are violent horrible people.

People are failing to realize that we are just planting the seeds for more terrorism. The article about the 3 year old girl that lost her foot was a good example. Her father would have no problem flying a plane into a building and killing those who were part of the killing of her daughter. People are upset because innocent civilians died, so our retaliation is killing more innocent civilians in order to vent our rage? We're just going to upset more people and cause more violence.

 

[Akaz1976]

<< Certainly more time would be good in figuring out combat tactics and strategy. By not mobilizing I think he means they aren't fueling their tanks and B2 bombers
>>



Ya, essentially all i meant was that they will have all the time they need to 'mobolize' in the duration it will take US to launch a ground assault. as for air assault, they really can prepare much for it other than run for the hills once bomb start falling.

As for 20,000 people......... well i heard about tons of potential refugees on the border but no fighters. i dont think they could raise 20000 regular fighters to position at pak border without exposing weakened Kabul to northern alliance. (taliban army accoring to some CIA link that was going around a while ago was 30000 at its peak)

Akaz

 

[rootaxs]

<< t is going to be necessary to get a point across to people who have NO intention of negotiating diplomatically. They've already declared war on us, straight out of the horses mouth. >>




Remember, they wanted to negotiate. Bush turned them down.

NFS4, my points exactly.

 

[hungrypete]

<< I've kept out of these discussions because they always seem to degenerate into flame wars. But I'll just say this.

1. The United States of America has been publicly humiliated and it's people killed in front of the eyes of the entire world.
2. This has happened before; the Embassy, the USS Cole. We played "The Strong, Silent Type" and did nothing
3. At this point, Bin Laden and all the other terrorists are the "Schoolyard Bully" If you punk out every time they come after you, they will never stop "beating you up."
4. Any future attacks will be of the same scale as what we just witnessed. Massive loss of life and property
5. The US is backed into a corner. We have no choice but to react decisively. If not, the people of this country and our allies and the countries we protect will lose faith in the US government. Not a good think.

Again, the rabid dog is out of it's cage and prowling the city, biting anyone it comes in contact with. We have no choice but to shoot the dog. The only thing these Medevil people understand and respect is violence. Back in NYC, I personally had contact with many of them every day. They are ignorant to a fault. They follow blindly and with total disregard for their own lives and property. If Osama told them all to strap C5 to their chests in run into shopping malls across America THEY WOULD DO IT INSTANTLY.

Please understand, I'm not a war monger. Many lives have been affected already, including mine. We have to end this while we still can. Now. Thanks for listening. >>



good post


---

rootaxs: I know that war is not a good thing. I know it's going to take years. Anyone in the military has a job to do. If this war turns horribly ugly, I really think I will go sign up. I would be honored to be drafted. I understand what I am saying, even if you doubt me.

"At this point, Bin Laden and all the other terrorists are the "Schoolyard Bully" If you punk out every time they come after you, they will never stop "beating you up.""

 

[Mangos]

Also, I keep seeing this example of the rabid dog. The rabid dog is NOT a social animal, but humans are! The rabid dog is a recluse that is suffering from a disease. Don't even try to say that the Afghan people are suffering from a disease...

 

[hungrypete]

<<

<< t is going to be necessary to get a point across to people who have NO intention of negotiating diplomatically. They've already declared war on us, straight out of the horses mouth. >>




Remember, they wanted to negotiate. Bush turned them down.

NFS4, my points exactly. >>



Did you just read the headline or did you see the whole article? They had already declared jihad, turn around and say they are going to ask a council of clerics, then they want to negotiate, then its a crime to turn over bin Laden without 'evidence'. They are stalling. If you ask me, which no one ever does, for good reason, bin Laden is using the Taliban as a puppet, his money and troops are invaluable to them.

 

[clarkmo]

<< We appeal to the American government for tolerance >>


Tolerance=mercy, They're begging for it.
They obviously don't know what tolerance means

 

[StageLeft]

1) A ground war will take a long time
2) It will be exceedingly ugly
3) I don't have any idea what else can really be done

 

[hungrypete]

<< Also, I keep seeing this example of the rabid dog. The rabid dog is NOT a social animal, but humans are! The rabid dog is a recluse that is suffering from a disease. Don't even try to say that the Afghan people are suffering from a disease... >>



disease = taliban and bin laden and anyone else who puts political agendas in front of the basic human right to eat. Now you could flip that around and blame it on the UN like many muslim news sites seem to be, but the UN isnt completely irrational or harsh. The Afghan people are suffering from a disease of oppression.

 

[stingbandel]

If there is a war the impact will be huge not to the US but to the whole world. Economy will be getting worse than what it has been. Also not to remember that if there is a war then more people are gonna die. I would suggest if Laden is the one, then we get him only. Why would waste a lot of money to destroy a country like Afghanistan?







Darno

 

[Mangos]

"Again, the rabid dog is out of it's cage and prowling the city, biting anyone it comes in contact with. We have no choice but to shoot the dog. The only thing these Medevil people understand and respect is violence. Back in NYC, I personally had contact with many of them every day. They are ignorant to a fault. They follow blindly and with total disregard for their own lives and property. If Osama told them all to strap C5 to their chests in run into shopping malls across America THEY WOULD DO IT INSTANTLY."

You're saying that "those" people are ignorant. You're stereotyping an entire race of people. You can't classify or categorize these people as medevil, they have a different life than you. Respect diversity. They don't live by violence, they just have certain belifs that contradict the beliefs held by other people.

 

[rootaxs]

<< good post >>



Good post as well.

---


<< rootaxs: I know that war is not a good thing. I know it's going to take years. Anyone in the military has a job to do. If this war turns horribly ugly, I really think I will go sign up. I would be honored to be drafted. I understand what I am saying, even if you doubt me. >>



hungrypete: i understand what you're saying, i too would do the same when it's necessary. I do not doubt you at all, i've been to a lot of organizations (pro-consumer/justice) and rallies and i know to what extent some people (as i have myself) would go to just to prove a point and/or to help their fellowmen.

when my country's first people revolution came about (Philippines) i was there with everyone, hand in hand, to overthrow our corrupt government. We did that without guns and without killing people.

and we did it again the second time around just last year. in fact people around the world was amazed at how we were able to do so a second time around and still manage to thwart a civil war of some kind. last i heard the Philippine people were supposed to be getting a Nobel Peace Prize for this.

my point is, there's always a better way to solve a problem than fight a war.

 

[hungrypete]

<< "Again, the rabid dog is out of it's cage and prowling the city, biting anyone it comes in contact with. We have no choice but to shoot the dog. The only thing these Medevil people understand and respect is violence. Back in NYC, I personally had contact with many of them every day. They are ignorant to a fault. They follow blindly and with total disregard for their own lives and property. If Osama told them all to strap C5 to their chests in run into shopping malls across America THEY WOULD DO IT INSTANTLY."

You're saying that "those" people are ignorant. You're stereotyping an entire race of people. You can't classify or categorize these people as medevil, they have a different life than you. Respect diversity. They don't live by violence, they just have certain belifs that contradict the beliefs held by other people. >>



What about the Nazis. Was that a culture?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Americans can usally tolerate different beliefs.

However, when others try to force those on us, that we must resist.

Should we tolerate the terrorists because they have a different belief and that is to destroy us?

HELL NO!!!!!

 

[Nemesis77]

<<
?The president?s message to the Taliban is very simple ? it?s time for action, not negotiations"
>>



Now the sh*t really hits the fan...

 

[TRUMPHENT]

Does the U.S. want a war? Not no, but hell no! Check out Wall Street the last two days. That is war jitters.
Will there be military action? You betcha. This will not be left unpunished.
Are the Taliban concerned? Yes, they get to live a relatively cushy life compared to other Afghanis.
Afghanistan does not have or will not have an air force the moment the attacks begin. Their weapons are pitiful by comparison. We can watch them night and day and destroy them from a standoff distance.
This is the one thing Democrats and Republicans are in 100 per cent agreement.
The administration is still gathering support for the effort from around the world.
The Taliban are feeling pretty gloomy about now and for very good reason.

 

[Amused]

<< "WTF do you expect from a culture that buries alive the widows of it's war dead? "

-It's a culture. It's different than your culture, but it's still a culture. It's part of their tradition. They will outgrow that tradition when they are ready, not when you say that they are ready. Perhaps hotdogs and baseball games are part of your culture, but those things are not part of the Afghan culture. Just because they believe in certain things doesn't mean that they are violent horrible people.

People are failing to realize that we are just planting the seeds for more terrorism. The article about the 3 year old girl that lost her foot was a good example. Her father would have no problem flying a plane into a building and killing those who were part of the killing of her daughter. People are upset because innocent civilians died, so our retaliation is killing more innocent civilians in order to vent our rage? We're just going to upset more people and cause more violence. >>



WTF???

NEVER is this, in ANY CULTURE, correct. You know, Mangos, you are one sick SOB.

You would have us sit on our hands, and not defend ourselves, inviting any and all terrorists who have a beef with the US to kill a few thousand to get what they want.

This is NOT revenge, Mangos, it's self defense. We MUST wipe them out not only so they can't do it again, but to send a message that ANY act like this WILL be punished.

Oh forget it, explaining this to you is a waste of my time. You disgust me. :disgust:

 

[Amused]

<< "Again, the rabid dog is out of it's cage and prowling the city, biting anyone it comes in contact with. We have no choice but to shoot the dog. The only thing these Medevil people understand and respect is violence. Back in NYC, I personally had contact with many of them every day. They are ignorant to a fault. They follow blindly and with total disregard for their own lives and property. If Osama told them all to strap C5 to their chests in run into shopping malls across America THEY WOULD DO IT INSTANTLY."

You're saying that "those" people are ignorant. You're stereotyping an entire race of people. You can't classify or categorize these people as medevil, they have a different life than you. Respect diversity. They don't live by violence, they just have certain belifs that contradict the beliefs held by other people. >>



The taliban is NOT a "race of people."

Islamic extremists are NOT a "race of people."

Terrorists are NOT a "race of people."

Go away, Mangos. No one wants to listen to your stupidity here. :disgust: