US should help Syria rebels, GOP's John McCain and Lindsey Graham say

[cybrsage]

The main roadblock to taking action against Syria, as I understand it, is the fact that they are in bed with Russia. I suppose that would have to be addressed prior to taking action, and Syria sends a lot of money to Russia.

Also, the Russians have their only military base that is outside their borders in.... Syria.

http://www.economist.com/node/21542793

Ah, I had not heard of this. That would be a good reason not to invade.

 

[davmat787]

Ah, I had not heard of this. That would be a good reason not to invade.

I was aware Syria was a major customer of Russia, but was very surprised when I looked into it and the numbers.

Anyone in favor of taking action against Syria MUST address the issue of Russia first. What would happen if a JDAM, by accident, wipes out a group of Russian soldiers on R&R or convoy? I highly recommend reading up on the long relationship between the then USSR/now Russian Federation and Syria.

I am not suggesting it is an insurmountable problem, just that it must be addressed first. Another reason not to invade is the fact we have been seeing our brothers and sisters die in these faraway shitholes for the past ten years. On the other hand, it is very difficult to watch civilians continuously being slaughtered while they stand up to an oppressive regime.

 

[cubby1223]

I say fuck all these shit hole countries. We need to pull back all aid to all countries that hate the US and let them sort out their own demons.

Only if they have no oil we want.

 

[pcgeek11]

I was aware Syria was a major customer of Russia, but was very surprised when I looked into it and the numbers.

Anyone in favor of taking action against Syria MUST address the issue of Russia first. What would happen if a JDAM, by accident, wipes out a group of Russian soldiers on R&R or convoy? I highly recommend reading up on the long relationship between the then USSR/now Russian Federation and Syria.

I am not suggesting it is an insurmountable problem, just that it must be addressed first. Another reason not to invade is the fact we have been seeing our brothers and sisters die in these faraway shitholes for the past ten years. On the other hand, it is very difficult to watch civilians continuously being slaughtered while they stand up to an oppressive regime.

I agree that it is hard to watch innocents getting slaughtered, but " we have been seeing our brothers and sisters die in these faraway shitholes for the past ten years. " this is not worth the shit holes and the world wide disrespect for the US for " interfering " in their internal affairs.

 

[davmat787]

I agree that it is hard to watch innocents getting slaughtered, but " we have been seeing our brothers and sisters die in these faraway shitholes for the past ten years. " this is not worth the shit holes and the world wide disrespect for the US for " interfering " in their internal affairs.

Perhaps I worded my comment incorrectly, but what I am saying is that interfering with boots on the ground is not worth it, especially when many have been lost in other faraway shitholes. What are we in disagreement about? Just curious.

As far as the international respect angle you bring up, I think we have reached a "damned if we, damned if we don't" level. Which of course is common to the top dog so to speak. If we do "assist" in Syria, I think we all know what the international commentary will be, especially among arab and/or muslim populations. If we don't, and the slaughter continues or worsens, then it is very easy for people to point the finger, especially along the lines of "what, we aren't worth what a Lybian is worth? Oh that's right, they have oil" even if that is bullshit and nothing to do with it.

 

[Ausm]

Did you read your own article?

I see no advocacy of war. I see suggestions for the USA to provide some weapons to the protesters through 3rd parties (e.g. the Arab League).

I opposed our support of those against Khaddafy because he was mostly in our 'camp' while his opposition had many AQ.

But Assad is tied in with Iran and is our enemy. Whoever his opposition is, they cannot be worse than Assad. The same cannot be said for Libya.

Fern

So your banking on supplying weapon support through "3rd parties" wouldn't cost tax payers even more money and possibly lead to another clusterfuck in the sand?....ooooooK.

 

[Genx87]

LOLwut?? How so please show me where I was in favor of Libya.

So are against us helping toppling the old regime? That is good to know.

 

[Craig234]

Perhaps I worded my comment incorrectly, but what I am saying is that interfering with boots on the ground is not worth it, especially when many have been lost in other faraway shitholes. What are we in disagreement about? Just curious.

As far as the international respect angle you bring up, I think we have reached a "damned if we, damned if we don't" level. Which of course is common to the top dog so to speak. If we do "assist" in Syria, I think we all know what the international commentary will be, especially among arab and/or muslim populations. If we don't, and the slaughter continues or worsens, then it is very easy for people to point the finger, especially along the lines of "what, we aren't worth what a Lybian is worth? Oh that's right, they have oil" even if that is bullshit and nothing to do with it.

Man, the nonsense gets old.

First, the people who screw things up don't get to use that as an excuse to say 'sorry, we can't do something we should because the screwups.' That just lets them do more harm.

Second, ya, you are a good commenter on the world opinion - the 'they'll throw flowers at our feet' crowd - the 'Muslim world will be very critical', just like in Libya. Oh wait.

You can't tell the difference between removing Saddam done well and terribly.

Here's a tip for removing Saddam better:

Don't give the job to incompetent right-wing ideologues who are going to let the mobs run wild, loot the city and museums of irreplacable history, protecting not one location except the oil ministry, dismantle the government workers, appoint kids with no experience because they applied to a right-wing think tank to important roles in Iraq's rebuilding, treat civilian casualties as unimportant approving 50 bombing targets to target Saddam the first night of the war that killed only civilians, don't try to force an American corrupt puppet Chalabi on the population as their new leader, don't try to install a massive radical right-wing economic system on the population (it had to be abandoned), just for a start.

Oh, and don't launch the war illegally based on lies.

None of those things had to be done to remove Saddam.

The Iraq war was an agenda Bush came to office with in order to increase his power as a 'war president' - reports saying to try to build capital to destroy Social Security.

That was his second term's top domestic priority - and it didn't work.

Save234

 

[Ausm]

So are against us helping toppling the old regime? That is good to know.

Soo your trying to put words in my mouth? I don't give a shit about your opinion nor do I worry about your interpretation of my thought process.

 

[Genx87]

Soo your trying to put words in my mouth? I don't give a shit about your opinion nor do I worry about your interpretation of my thought process.

Well what is it then? I said you probably supported the Libyan toppling and you said prove it. So I say it is good to know you didnt support the Libyan toppling and you are saying I am putting words into your mouth.

 

[Ausm]

Well what is it then? I said you probably supported the Libyan toppling and you said prove it. So I say it is good to know you didnt support the Libyan toppling and you are saying I am putting words into your mouth.

nor do I worry about your interpretation of my thought process.

Please refer to the last part of my post.

 

[Nintendesert]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46451682/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/#.T0KSj-Py_p4

Haven't the Neocons had enough war after bankrupting our nation with the last two wars we were in???

Just pretend it's Libya and get in step.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

LOLwut?? How so please show me where I was in favor of Libya.

Is Libya a victory for President Obama?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32169343&postcount=1

I think overthrowing this dictator with minimum cost and AMERICAN bloodshed was good.

I bet if it was Obama or his staff supported arming the Syrian rebels you would be all for it.

 

[crownjules]

I agree that it is hard to watch innocents getting slaughtered, but " we have been seeing our brothers and sisters die in these faraway shitholes for the past ten years. " this is not worth the shit holes and the world wide disrespect for the US for " interfering " in their internal affairs.

America's "best interests" lay in the stability of the region. While we do not actually import most of our oil from the ME, if it were to descend into a shitstorm that disrupted oil production than oil prices the world over would skyrocket. Oil is our life blood - it's not just used for energy production but in the construction of so much junk we "need" as consumers.

American businesses need cheap oil and so the American government gets paid to protect that interest. This also has the added benefit of supplying the military-industrial complex with a reason to exist and suck up funds.

 

[Ausm]

Is Libya a victory for President Obama?
http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=32169343&postcount=1



I bet if it was Obama or his staff supported arming the Syrian rebels you would be all for it.

It doesn't say I was in favor of doing it just liked the outcome....Go back to your bunker and learn 2 read RepubliTroll.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

It doesn't say I was in favor of doing it just liked the outcome....Go back to your bunker and learn 2 read RepubliTroll.

Why brag about something you don't support? Oh that's right it was done by someone you support.

BTW nice personal attack.

 

[JTsyo]

I say let the regional powers clean up their own backyard. Of course the leaders of those countries couldn't care less about common people.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

So your banking on supplying weapon support through "3rd parties" wouldn't cost tax payers even more money and possibly lead to another clusterfuck in the sand?....ooooooK.

I support the idea of the US spending money to equip, train, and provide intelligence to those who oppose leaders who murder their own citizens as a matter of course to retain their dictatorship.

These are real people enduring real suffering which if you have not witnessed cannot be appreciated. That is a principle reason why I opposed the Iraq War, not because Saddam wasn't a tyrant, but by direct intervention we magnified the horrors they endured. This time we may do someone some good, give them not some false democracy but real freedom, the right of self determination.

I oppose oppression.

 

[Ausm]

Why brag about something you don't support? Oh that's right it was done by someone you support.

BTW nice personal attack.

How can the truth be a personal attack and you are assuming I was bragging and thusly supported it....find where I condoned the initial influence of Tax payer money in another 3rd world shithole and then we might have something to talk about.

 

[Ausm]

I support the idea of the US spending money to equip, train, and provide intelligence to those who oppose leaders who murder their own citizens as a matter of course to retain their dictatorship.

These are real people enduring real suffering which if you have not witnessed cannot be appreciated. That is a principle reason why I opposed the Iraq War, not because Saddam wasn't a tyrant, but by direct intervention we magnified the horrors they endured. This time we may do someone some good, give them not some false democracy but real freedom, the right of self determination.

I oppose oppression.

Didn't we do that when the Russians were in Afghanistan and Vietnam now that was a giant clusterf*ck. I personally think we should stop wasting money in those 3rd world shitholes and stop being the world's policeman.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

How can the truth be a personal attack and you are assuming I was bragging and thusly supported it....find where I condoned the initial influence of Tax payer money in another 3rd world shithole and then we might have something to talk about.

I guess you for it after you were against it.

 

[Ausm]

I guess you for it after you were against it.

huh?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Didn't we do that when the Russians were in Afghanistan and Vietnam that's a whole other issue. I personally think we should stop wasting money in those 3rd world shitholes and stop being the world's policeman.

You aren't making an equivalent analogy. What you describe is what Kipling referred to as "The Great Game", something as old ruling class structures. It is using surrogates to advance in standing or power or gain. That is distinctly different from aiding a people to stand against the tyrants who murder them. This isn't about gamesmanship, but doing good for a people.

I suggest you read up on "The Good Samaritan". Who is my neighbor? Those in Syria are. Yours too, even if you think them a waste of resources.

 

[davmat787]

Didn't we do that when the Russians were in Afghanistan? I personally think we should stop wasting money in those 3rd world shitholes and stop being the world's policeman.

Most, if not all, military historians I have read agree that the man portable Stinger missile systems that the CIA provided the Mujihadeen was the most important factor in turning the war and forcing the Soviets to turn tail.

I am not suggesting anything in regards to Syria at this point, just responding to your comment in regards to the USSR/Afghanistan conflict and our involvement.

 

[Ausm]

You aren't making an equivalent analogy. What you describe is what Kipling referred to as "The Great Game", something as old ruling class structures. It is using surrogates to advance in standing or power or gain. That is distinctly different from aiding a people to stand against the tyrants who murder them. This isn't about gamesmanship, but doing good for a people.

I suggest you read up on "The Good Samaritan". Who is my neighbor? Those in Syria are. Yours too, even if you think them a waste of resources.

Isn't that subjective? A lot of the times when America has interfered in other countries times of strife for the "good of the people" we actually turned out to be the villains in the eyes of the local people.

I am not insinuating this would be the case all the time but looking back in recent history it seems to be the norm in my opinion.