US stops Intel from selling Xeons to Chinese gub'ment

[imported_ats]

Yep, or any other third party.

Its nothing but political paper politics without any impact.

Any third party determined or suspected of funneling chips to those organizations would also have to be cut off by Intel. And any third party doing such would likely also be added to the list.

And if you think it doesn't have impact... Violating technology export controls generally falls under the same block of laws relating to things like treason. AKA, there is real impact to this. And Intel will do anything in its power not to be seen as in any way trying to sidestep it.

 

[DeathReborn]

Or they could try to buy VIA, which is outside of US jurisdiction, if they really wanted x86. Most likely scenario is they find some other way to get the CPUs they want.

They could just boost MIPS development and create some better Fabs for SMIC, they have the cash and almost certainly the trained personnel to pull it off within a few years.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Or they could try to buy VIA, which is outside of US jurisdiction, if they really wanted x86. Most likely scenario is they find some other way to get the CPUs they want.

I don't think x86 compatibility is the issue here. They can already run Linux on their homegrown Longsoon chips which is often the base OS for their supercomputers anyway. It is not outside the realm of possibility that they could just run a bunch of Teslas or Voltas in Longsoon nodes, though that would requires some hackery. Or they could run them on Opteron or POWER nodes. ORNL's Summit will be POWER9 + Volta.

Unlikely. Anything advanced enough inside AMD is likely considered restricted.

It also means that any other US based technology company is likely in the same spot as Intel. AKA, no they can't just switch to Power and Nvidia GPUs.

What was considered restricted before this particular ban went into effect? GPUs from AMD, for example? I mean you have to deal with the obvious headaches of GPGPU when using them, but GCN cards are easily fast enough to be useful in a supercomputer, especially if you get some of the 1/2 64-bit cards.

If what you say is true, then it means that the US gub'ment was asleep at the wheel for a long time wrt Phi. It took them this long to get around to classifying it in the same category as high-performance GPUs?

So why are we so unsettled about the proliferation of an Intel chip, to a country that already manufacturers so many other parts for the world-wide industry?

There are obvious answers to this, but to go back to what I said earlier in the thread . . . the US has been selling out sensitive tech to the Chicoms for decades. Anyone remember Loral or Global Crossing? I don't think that stuff ever stopped.

 

[MongGrel]

Many major US defense contractors have been in cahoots with China a long time as far as Electronics/Avionics go.

I just know it for a fact.

*waits on a knock on the door*

 

[Cerb]

Even China won't resort to that.

:hmm:

()

If they're looking at a lot of Phis, AMD really doesn't have competition, and if they have decided that real cache coherency, and fast memory, is important, neither does nVidia.

 

[MongGrel]

If they're looking at a lot of Phis, AMD really doesn't have competition, and if they have decided that real cache coherency, and fast memory, is important, neither does nVidia.

I was joking a bit, but that may be true.

My AMD knowledge is lacking over the decades I guess.

 

[jdubs03]

this has definitely set a precedent. but it's going to take time to notice just how wide the ramifications will be. i doubt intel would want to take a risk in more discreetly providing phi's through shells or other conduits; the benefit seems to be outweighed by its potential costs.

what is surprising to me is why didn't this get blocked for first-gen xeon phi? this time around the excuse was the areas studied are contrary to US national interest, but they just realized this? they had to know all along and are now putting the political spin on it. advancements in process and cpu design were always going to lead to our rivals gaining access to hpc, now the US is a victim. right.

 

[jhu]

this has definitely set a precedent. but it's going to take time to notice just how wide the ramifications will be. i doubt intel would want to take a risk in more discreetly providing phi's through shells or other conduits; the benefit seems to be outweighed by its potential costs.

what is surprising to me is why didn't this get blocked for first-gen xeon phi? this time around the excuse was the areas studied are contrary to US national interest, but they just realized this? they had to know all along and are now putting the political spin on it. advancements in process and cpu design were always going to lead to our rivals gaining access to hpc, now the US is a victim. right.

Or maybe IBM is annoyed that a pure Intel computer is the fastest supercomputer in the world and paid off enough congress critters to restrict Intel's sales so they can move in.

It's not like China can only make supercomputers using Xeon and Xeon Phi. There's nothing stopping them from using Core i7 - it'll just take more of them. Or they could make their supercomputer out of SPARC64 from Fujitsu, although maybe the Japanese wouldn't be too keen on that either.

 

[meloz]

The major question is how China will get around it? It basically has to start a competitor that will be better than Intel from scratch.

lol no. They will just start a shell company, which will buy Xeons from one of many Intel resellers all over the world. Done.

These type of sanctions and ban do not work.

 

[jhu]

lol no. They will just start a shell company, which will buy Xeons from one of many Intel resellers all over the world. Done.

These type of sanctions and ban do not work.

Indeed. It worked 16 years ago for the PS2. But wait! They now get to play with PS4!

 

[tential]

Odd how we ban this but don't ban the sale of military equipment to countries known to support terrorism...
Interesting...

 

[soccerballtux]

That also doesn't stop'em from buying AMD parts or improving their home-grown CPUs.

haha their home grown CPUs are a joke

 

[imported_ats]

What was considered restricted before this particular ban went into effect? GPUs from AMD, for example? I mean you have to deal with the obvious headaches of GPGPU when using them, but GCN cards are easily fast enough to be useful in a supercomputer, especially if you get some of the 1/2 64-bit cards.

If what you say is true, then it means that the US gub'ment was asleep at the wheel for a long time wrt Phi. It took them this long to get around to classifying it in the same category as high-performance GPUs?

In this case, it has more to do with use category than anything else. US Gov determined that the computers at the organizations in question were being used for nuclear weapons research and testing and therefore aren't export licensed.

 

[jhu]

haha their home grown CPUs are a joke

That doesn't mean they can't be improved. Intel used to be a joke in the HPC and enterprise markets. By fostering their own CPUs, they can avoid these export controls.

 

[jdubs03]

That doesn't mean they can't be improved. Intel used to be a joke in the HPC and enterprise markets. By fostering their own CPUs, they can avoid these export controls.

I highly doubt they could come close to Intel's cpu design and process, but it wouldn't hurt to try on their own. plus they've probably hacked enough info for their needs anyway.

 

[imported_ats]

That doesn't mean they can't be improved. Intel used to be a joke in the HPC and enterprise markets. By fostering their own CPUs, they can avoid these export controls.

Intel has been a major player in HPC for decades. In fact they have more time atop the Top500 than any other player except IBM which they are basically tied with. There first #1 Top500 machine was the Intel Paragon in 1993. From 1997-1999 the Intel ASCI Red ruled the roost of HPC machines and was one of the longest lived HPC machines ever built.

And throughout the history of the Top500 and supercomputing in general, only 2 countries have designed the top tier machines: the US and Japan. And only 6 companies: Cray, IBM, Intel, Fujitsu, Hitachi, and NEC. And Intel has been in the race since the end of the Cray monolithic era.

I don't understand where you get this idea that Intel used to be a joke in HPC, esp considering they've basically been one of if not THE major player for well over 2 decades and appear to have no hurdles to stretching that to 3 decades.

 

[Magic Carpet]

@imported_ats

Interesting. The second-fastest "super computer" seems to be based on AMD CPUs.

@OP

This ban was expected imo, China is the biggest world economy now. Expect more "sanctions".

 

[Madpacket]

This isn't really about blocking the selling of special chips to China. This is about vetting out which American companies are compliant to US Law. It's no secret Intel and the NSA work together so this news isn't surprising to me.

What will be more interesting is which US companies call this BS and ignore the US regulations / sanctions and sell anyway.

 

[NTMBK]

@imported_ats

Interesting. The second-fastest "super computer" seems to be based on AMD CPUs.

That's because it's an upgrade from a previous system, which used older AMD CPUs. The newer Opterons were a drop in replacement, and they added several thousand Kepler GPUs.

If they had been building a new system from the ground up, they would no doubt have used Xeons.

 

[NTMBK]

What will be more interesting is which US companies call this BS and ignore the US regulations / sanctions and sell anyway.

Erm, none of them, because they would receive multi-billion dollar fines.

 

[Magic Carpet]

That's because it's an upgrade from a previous system, which used older AMD CPUs. The newer Opterons were a drop in replacement, and they added several thousand Kepler GPUs.

If they had been building a new system from the ground up, they would no doubt have used Xeons.

I see, thanks for clarifying that. I wonder how much of electrical power this thing can consume under peak loads. A mini power station must be nearby.

This isn't really about blocking the selling of special chips to China. This is about vetting out which American companies are compliant to US Law. It's no secret Intel and the NSA work together so this news isn't surprising to me.

Now that makes total sense.

What will be more interesting is which US companies call this BS and ignore the US regulations / sanctions and sell anyway.

Indeed.

Erm, none of them, because they would receive multi-billion dollar fines.

Unless, they collaborate. Bug the chips, etc. The Chinese never saw it coming

 

[frozentundra123456]

This isn't really about blocking the selling of special chips to China. This is about vetting out which American companies are compliant to US Law. It's no secret Intel and the NSA work together so this news isn't surprising to me.

What will be more interesting is which US companies call this BS and ignore the US regulations / sanctions and sell anyway.

So if for the sake of argument, ones assumes Intel and the NSA are in cahoots, wouldnt the NSA *want* intel to sell chips to china so they could more easily hack them? Of course a good conspiracy theory is always more interesting than the simple fact that advanced technology of a variety of types is commonly prohibited from being sold to "unfriendly" nations.

 

[imported_ats]

This isn't really about blocking the selling of special chips to China. This is about vetting out which American companies are compliant to US Law. It's no secret Intel and the NSA work together so this news isn't surprising to me.

What will be more interesting is which US companies call this BS and ignore the US regulations / sanctions and sell anyway.

I can tell you exactly which US companies... Those US companies that wish to no longer be in business with those CEOs that no longer wish their freedom. This isn't some BS you can ignore. There are hefty fines and penalties for even unintentional violation of US export controls as there are in most countries in the world, including China! Or do you somehow thing that Chinese or Russian companies can sell high tech information and weapons to anyone they want without regard to their governments. Probably a good point to mention that China at one point restricted the sale of rare earth elements to ANYONE outside of China!

As far as who Intel works with, they work with anyone they can legally work with that they believe will provide financial benefit to themselves. Shockingly just like any for profit company in the world.

 

[imported_ats]

I see, thanks for clarifying that. I wonder how much of electrical power this thing can consume under peak loads. A mini power station must be nearby.

8.2 MW. Power is likely supplied via TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority) which supplies pretty much all the power in the Tennessee Valley and is headquartered in Knoxville, TN not far from ORNL. TVA has a large assortment of hydro, nuclear, renewable, and coal based power plants all throughout Tennessee and into surrounding states.

 

[frozentundra123456]

8.2 MW. Power is likely supplied via TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority) which supplies pretty much all the power in the Tennessee Valley and is headquartered in Knoxville, TN not far from ORNL. TVA has a large assortment of hydro, nuclear, renewable, and coal based power plants all throughout Tennessee and into surrounding states.

I am sure they have some kind of special deal negotiated, but at residential rates, that would be close to 2000 plus dollars per day in power costs, assuming continuous max use, which I expect would be pretty accurate for this particular machine. Any idea of the cost of the computer itself?