Originally posted by: Ozoned
:QOriginally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Pics??????Originally posted by: Ferocious
BBC story
"60% to 70% of the homes and buildings are completely crushed and damaged"
you keep pushing the end line further and further
Here, let me make it real clear . Cut and paste boy should provide some pics of
"60% to 70% of the homes and buildings are completely crushed and damaged"
or cut and paste boy and those that choose to distract from this claim should STFU.:|
It is not good luck that I desire, but good hunting.Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Ozoned
:QOriginally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Pics??????Originally posted by: Ferocious
BBC story
"60% to 70% of the homes and buildings are completely crushed and damaged"
you keep pushing the end line further and further
Here, let me make it real clear . Cut and paste boy should provide some pics of
"60% to 70% of the homes and buildings are completely crushed and damaged"
or cut and paste boy and those that choose to distract from this claim should STFU.:|
good luck
CsG
Originally posted by: BBond
I'm not measuring anyone's worth. I'm saying that with only 137 posts it's a bit early to start tiring of anything.
And your link is an Australian site about as far removed from MSM as possible and still exist. Thanks for proving my point.
Originally posted by: Ozoned
It is not good luck that I desire, but good hunting.Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Ozoned
:QOriginally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Pics??????Originally posted by: Ferocious
BBC story
"60% to 70% of the homes and buildings are completely crushed and damaged"
you keep pushing the end line further and further
Here, let me make it real clear . Cut and paste boy should provide some pics of
"60% to 70% of the homes and buildings are completely crushed and damaged"
or cut and paste boy and those that choose to distract from this claim should STFU.:|
good luck
CsG
There isn?t much different between using Napalms & BLU-82, because both kill and maims indiscriminately.Originally posted by: AndrewR
Originally posted by: OffTopic
Why stop now when it work well for his father?Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
I wouldn't be surprised if this article is BS, but the sad thing is that I wouldn't be surprised if this administration did something like this. For some reason I think that if the US actually did use Napalm, it would be more widely reported than apparent 'hack' of a website.
I wouldn't be surprised if it is what theblackbox is talking about. I'm sure the US army has plenty of weapons that can cause similar damage.
'Daisy cutterst, 15,000-pound bombs which can "[disintegrate] everything within hundreds of yards". (Walker)' (searh Highway of Death for more info).
'Iraq was bombed with over 300 tons of depleted uranium, a heavy metal that some believe increases the risk of cancer (although this is hotly disputed). The rate of cancer Iraqi children after the war increased four-fold. '
So now Daisy Cutters are "weapons of mass destruction"? While the literal interpretation of that phrase might seem to apply to something like the BLU-82, it is NOT the military meaning of the term. A weapon of mass destruction refers to a weapon which has the ability to kill that far outstrips its size when compared to conventional munitions. Check the size of the BLU-82. Do you expect a 15,000 lb bomb to have a small explosion?
In comparison, a SMALL nuclear weapon, which will weigh less than the BLU-82, will have on the order of 100-150 kilotons of explosive power -- that's 100,000-150,000 TONS (not pounds) of TNT. Even assuming that the BLU-82 explosive power is greater than that of TNT pound for pound, the difference is amazing.
Incidentally, the Highway of Death had nothing to do with a BLU-82 (or Daisy Cutter, same thing -- Daisy Cutter is actually the term originally applied to the fuse for the BLU-82, not the bomb itself). The thieving Iraqis killed on the highway were gunned down with ordinary bombs, rockets, and bullets, not leveled with the big bomb. The BLU-82 has also been replaced in the US inventory by the MOAB, which is even larger. Progress is beautiful.
Just one further clarification -- depleted uranium is not used in bombs. It's used in armor piercing ammunition like that fired from the M1 tank, the M2/M3 infantry fighting vehicle, and perhaps other sources. It isn't used for its shrapnel ability, which is essential to a "bomb", but for its penetration ability given its density.
Originally posted by: Mare of Earth
Fallujah...... *taps chin in thought* ....... Isn't that the town that was on the news every night with more of our soldiers killed by the insurgents, for months on end?
Hmmmmm.....
Where did I put the marshmallows?
Originally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Ozoned
It is not good luck that I desire, but good hunting.Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Ozoned
:QOriginally posted by: Czar
Originally posted by: Ozoned
Pics??????Originally posted by: Ferocious
BBC story
"60% to 70% of the homes and buildings are completely crushed and damaged"
you keep pushing the end line further and further
Here, let me make it real clear . Cut and paste boy should provide some pics of
"60% to 70% of the homes and buildings are completely crushed and damaged"
or cut and paste boy and those that choose to distract from this claim should STFU.:|
good luck
CsG
First he says 75% of buildings were destroyed, then you guys say provide us with a link, he does that, then you guys demand pics If he would provide pics of damaged and destroyed what would your response be?
Would it be that you accept it, yes ok 60-70% of buildings were destroyed
or
Would you dismiss it and demand more proof, as in the photos dont proove anything and ask for some number claims of actual number of buildings there and number of buildings destroyed.
The end line gets pushed further away
The same goes when people try to assess the number of civilians who have been killed during the war. No one has done an exact count because right now that is impossible and dismissing anyone giving a number is rather easy thing to do.
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
I think you are a tad confused. The end line has not moved at all. "bbond" has not provided jack shiz at this point. A quote from some guy is not proof, and the pictures linked don't even come close to backing up his little claims. So again, show some proof and quit whining - OR quit making claims you can't back up.
/me not holding his breath...
CsG
FALLUJAH, 4 April (IRIN) - Compensation for residents of Fallujah city, some 60 km from the Iraqi capital, is happening at a slow pace, local people say.
Government studies suggest that 70 percent of buildings were destroyed in the city during the last conflict between US troops and insurgents.
This left thousands of families still encamped on the outskirts of the city, waiting for a government solution to their problem.
Two-thirds of the city's population is said to have fled when the fighting started between November 2004 and January 2005. Based on studies, each family will receive a sum of money, depending on the damage and size of their property.
"I cannot return to my home because it has been totally devastated and the government told me that I have to be patient and wait for my name to come up on the list for compensation. But it is going very slowly and my family need a roof over their heads," Kareem Aydan, a resident from Fallujah, camped on the outskirts of the city, told IRIN.
Muhammad Abdul al-A'ani, deputy minister for industry, told IRIN that of the total number of houses damaged in the city, only 90 families had received compensation of around US $1,500 each so far.
He added that $100 million from the Iraqi Relief and Reconstruction Funds (IRRF) had been set aside by the government to compensate and help families to return to their homes.
"We have found that $500 million is required for total compensation in the city but the US [-led] Coalition has just offered us $100 million so far, but they have promised that soon the rest will come into our hands," al-A'ani added.
Doctor Hafid al-Dulaimi, director of the Commission for the Compensation of Fallujah Citizens (CCFC), established by the government, told IRIN that a study had been carried to assess the scale of destruction. He reported 36,000 destroyed homes in all districts of Fallujah, along with 8,400 shops.
Al-Dulaimi pointed out that 60 children's nurseries, primary and secondary schools and colleges were destroyed and 65 mosques and religious sanctuaries were almost demolished by the attack, with 13 government buildings requiring new infrastructure.
"Most of the houses need to be rebuilt from scratch and the government should offer much more for families to enable them to return to their homes and [go back] to what it was like before the conflict started. Some shops have even disappeared and we hope that they stop discussing who will take the new government seats and remember that they have a lot to do here in Fallujah," al-Dulaimi urged.
However, there are some signs of normality returning to the stricken city, as basic facilities such as water pipes and sewage treatment plants are being repaired. Damaged schools are being renovated and new ones are being built by either the Coalition or the government.
According to Ahmed Salah, a senior officer from the public works ministry, two electricity substations, three water purification plants and two train stations were badly damaged, along with the sewage and surface water drainage subsystems throughout the city.
He explained that they were trying hard to meet basic needs. "Families in the city can find potable water in each corner of the city in tanks and through that we can guarantee healthy water until we have finished all our work and we believe that it won't take too long," Salah added.
A retired father of five, Abu Youssef received $1,500, but he said he needs five times more to repair his house and bring back everything they have had before inside it.
"Thank God I have received something. There are thousands of families that are still waiting for the compensation. But still, this amount of money is not enough to rebuild my house again," he told IRIN.
The Iraqi Red Crescent Society (IRCS) said that people in Fallujah had at least started to receive their monthly ration parcels, including those still camped in areas around the city.
Nearly 90,000 people had returned to the city, with another 200,000 families still waiting to enter, according to Lt. Gen. John Satler, a senior officer in the US Marines.
"Some families have started to be compensated and hospitals and schools have started to be opened. Soon Fallujah will be open to the people [in a] much better [condition] than before," Satler told IRIN.
Originally posted by: DotheDamnTHing
holy dead thread bump
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DotheDamnTHing
holy dead thread bump
Well I couldn't very well let the thread end on that last risible post, could I?
Seventy percent of Fallujah destroyed yet we don't hear a word about it because we've reached the point where Americans are too damn stupid to even ask the question.
Just because American MSM doesn't report it, and we choose to remain silent in the face of their glaring omissions, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Less than two weeks? :roll:Originally posted by: DotheDamnTHing
holy dead thread bump
Originally posted by: conjur
Less than two weeks? :roll:Originally posted by: DotheDamnTHing
holy dead thread bump
Or are you just ticked off this makes the Propagandist look bad?
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DotheDamnTHing
holy dead thread bump
Well I couldn't very well let the thread end on that last risible post, could I?
Seventy percent of Fallujah destroyed yet we don't hear a word about it because we've reached the point where Americans are too damn stupid to even ask the question.
Just because American MSM doesn't report it, and we choose to remain silent in the face of their glaring omissions, that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Maybe because there has yet to be any credible evidence that 70% of the city was destroyed. Saying it happened does not make it true.
Government studies suggest that 70 percent of buildings were destroyed in the city during the last conflict between US troops and insurgents.
Doctor Hafid al-Dulaimi, director of the Commission for the Compensation of Fallujah Citizens (CCFC), established by the government, told IRIN that a study had been carried to assess the scale of destruction. He reported 36,000 destroyed homes in all districts of Fallujah, along with 8,400 shops.
According to Ahmed Salah, a senior officer from the public works ministry, two electricity substations, three water purification plants and two train stations were badly damaged, along with the sewage and surface water drainage subsystems throughout the city.
Originally posted by: Kermit
Yet more reasons for the world to hate US.
Robert Zoellick is the archetypal US government insider, a man with a brilliant technical mind but zero experience of any coalface or war front. Sliding effortlessly between ivy league academia, the US treasury and corporate boardrooms (including an advisory post with the scandalous Enron), his latest position is the number-two slot at the state department.
Yet this ultimate "man of the suites" did something earlier this month that put the prime minister and the foreign secretary to shame. On their numerous visits to Iraq, neither has ever dared to go outside the heavily fortified green zones of Baghdad and Basra to see life as Iraqis have to live it. They come home after photo opportunities, briefings and pep talks with British troops and claim to know what is going on in the country they invaded, when in fact they have seen almost nothing.
Zoellick, by contrast, on his first trip to Iraq, asked to see Falluja. Remember Falluja? A city of some 300,000, which was alleged to be the stronghold of armed resistance to the occupation.
Two US attempts were made to destroy this symbol of defiance last year. The first, in April, fizzled out after Iraqi politicians, including many who supported the invasion of their country, condemned the use of air strikes to terrorise an entire city. The Americans called off the attack, but not before hundreds of families had fled and more than 600 people had been killed.
Six months later the Americans tried again. This time Washington's allies had been talked to in advance. Consistent US propaganda about the presence in Falluja of a top al-Qaida figure, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, was used to create a climate of acquiescence in the US-appointed Iraqi government. Shia leaders were told that bringing Falluja under control was the only way to prevent a Sunni-inspired civil war.
Blair was invited to share responsibility by sending British troops to block escape routes from Falluja and prevent supplies entering once the siege began.
Warnings of the onslaught prompted the vast majority of Falluja's 300,000 people to flee. The city was then declared a free-fire zone on the grounds that the only people left behind must be "terrorists".
Three weeks after the attack was launched last November, the Americans claimed victory. They say they killed about 1,300 people; one week into the siege, a BBC reporter put the unofficial death toll at 2,000. But details of what happened and who the dead were remain obscure. Were many unarmed civilians, as Baghdad-based human rights groups report? Even if they were trying to defend their homes by fighting the Americans, does that make them "terrorists"?
Journalists "embedded" with US forces filmed atrocities, including the killing of a wounded prisoner, but no reporter could get anything like a full picture. Since the siege ended, tight US restric tions - as well as the danger of hostage-taking that prevents reporters from travelling in most parts of Iraq - have put the devastated city virtually off limits.
In this context Zoellick's trip, which was covered by a small group of US journalists, was illuminating. The deputy secretary of state had to travel to this "liberated" city in a Black Hawk helicopter flying low over palm trees to avoid being shot down. He wore a flak jacket under his suit even though Falluja's streets were largely deserted. His convoy of eight armoured vehicles went "so quickly past an open-air bakery reopened with a US-provided micro-loan that workers tossing dough could be glanced only in the blink of an eye," as the Washington Post reported. "Blasted husks of buildings still line block after block," the journalist added.
Meeting hand-picked Iraqis in a US base, Zoellick was bombarded with complaints about the pace of US reconstruction aid and frequent intimidation of citizens by American soldiers. Although a state department factsheet claimed 95% of residents had water in their homes, Falluja's mayor said it was contaminated by sewage and unsafe.
Other glimpses of life in Falluja come from Dr Hafid al-Dulaimi, head of the city's compensation commission, who reports that 36,000 homes were destroyed in the US onslaught, along with 8,400 shops. Sixty nurseries and schools were ruined, along with 65 mosques and religious sanctuaries.
Daud Salman, an Iraqi journalist with the Institute for War and Peace Reporting, on a visit to Falluja two weeks ago, found that only a quarter of the city's residents had gone back. Thousands remain in tents on the outskirts. The Iraqi Red Crescent finds it hard to go in to help the sick because of the US cordon around the city.
Burhan Fasa'a, a cameraman for the Lebanese Broadcasting Company, reported during the siege that dead family members were buried in their gardens because people could not leave their homes. Refugees told one of us that civilians carrying white flags were gunned down by American soldiers. Corpses were tied to US tanks and paraded around like trophies.
Justin Alexander, a volunteer for Christian Peacemaker Teams, recently found hundreds living in tents in the grounds of their homes, or in a single patched-up room. A strict system of identity cards blocks access to anyone whose papers give a birthplace outside Falluja, so long-term residents born elsewhere cannot go home. "Fallujans feel the remnants of their city have been turned into a giant prison," he reports.
Many complain that soldiers of the Iraqi national guard, the fledgling new army, loot shops during the night-time curfew and detain people in order to take a bribe for their release. They are suspected of being members of the Badr Brigade, a Shia militia that wants revenge against Sunnis.
One thing is certain: the attack on Falluja has done nothing to still the insurgency against the US-British occupation nor produced the death of al-Zarqawi - any more than the invasion of Afghanistan achieved the capture or death of Osama bin Laden. Thousands of bereaved and homeless Falluja families have a new reason to hate the US and its allies.
At least Zoellick went to see. He gave no hint of the impression that the trip left him with, but is too smart not to have understood something of the reality. The lesson ought not to be lost on Blair and Straw. Every time the prime minister claims it is time to "move on" from the issue of the war's legality and rejoice at Iraq's transformation since Saddam Hussein was toppled, the answer must be: "Remember Falluja." When the foreign secretary next visits Iraq, he should put on a flak jacket and tour the city that Britain had a share in destroying.
The government keeps hoping Iraq will go away as an election issue. It stubbornly refuses to do so. Voters are not only angry that the war was illegal, illegitimate and unnecessary. The treatment inflicted on Iraqis since the invasion by the US and Britain is equally important.
In the 1930s the Spanish city of Guernica became a symbol of wanton murder and destruction. In the 1990s Grozny was cruelly flattened by the Russians; it still lies in ruins. This decade's unforgettable monument to brutality and overkill is Falluja, a text-book case of how not to handle an insurgency, and a reminder that unpopular occupations will always degenerate into desperation and atrocity.
Jonathan Steele is the Guardian's senior foreign correspondent; Dahr Jamail is a freelance American journalist.
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Oh that seals it! Bad, bad Americans! :roll:
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: cwjerome
Oh that seals it! Bad, bad Americans! :roll:
Thanks for contributing nothing...again.