v4 4500 or geforce2 mx

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BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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Damn right Doomguy.

High resolutions are simply far better than any low resolution mosh of pixels. The reason why 3dfx keeps saying otherwise is because their boards suck at high res even more than they do at low res.
 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
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hey you two nvidoits. Get both boards!. Try them both. I did. 800x600 with fsaa is far better than 1280x1024 without it.
 

Deeko

Lifer
Jun 16, 2000
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My monitor only goes up to 1280x1024. But I can play Half Life at 1024x768 on my V5 with 4x FSAA and it looks great and is still very smooth(I don't know if you can test frame rate in HL or not). And I think it looks better than 1600x1200 would. But that isn't an option for me, and probably some other people, anyway.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
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Doomguy and BFG10K... Have you guys used a V5 for a significant period of time? If not, then your claims against FSAA are unfounded. And don't even bother trying to base your claims on nVidia's FSAA, because it's not even in the ballpark of the V5.

There's more to FSAA than "jaggies". Well, at least on the V5 that's the case. Pixel popping and swimming/shimmering are a couple examples of how it improves overall image quality.

Madden2001 does not support T&L. Madden2000 supposedly did, but not 2001. Outside of a couple added lighting effects in MDK2, T&L is useless. Period. Sure, someday there will be games that are optimized for it, but that's a ways off.

3dREALMS has already said that Duke Nukem Forever will run better on a 3dfx product.

RoboTech, very well said, regarding the way reviewers just pop out some benchmarks and call it a good review. Benchmarks really don't mean sh*t to me, since I don't enjoy watching 3dMark or the Q3 timedemo. I like to play games.


"The reason why 3dfx keeps saying otherwise is because their boards suck at high res even more than they do at low res." --BFG10K
This is just nonsense. I've played both UT and Q3 at 1280 resolution, and the framerate never drops below perfectly smooth.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
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"You 3dfx trolls dont understand something. Higher resolutions are better than lower resolutions with FSAA." --doomguy

Guess what... I've tried both 1280x1024xNoFSAA and 1024x768x2xFSAA in both Q3 and UT... FSAA looks much better than the higher resolution. But thanks for the immature attempt at an insult.

I've done many comparisons (FSAA vs NoFSAA/higher res) on many games. And not one, did I find looked better without FSAA. Especially Madden, NHL, MDK2, and in particular, NFS5. That game is simply gorgeous with FSAA enabled.

If you don't believe me, I can find you some pics that I posted comparing FSAA vs NoFSAA in NFS5. Although, pics really don't do FSAA justice. You have to experience it, to be able to judge it.
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
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Doomguy:

<< You 3dfx trolls dont understand something. Higher resolutions are better than lower resolutions with FSAA. Jaggies are greatly reduced you you have MUCH MORE clarity than FSAA at a low res especially in the distance. >>

yes, hi-res sure is better, ON A GTS. The GTS's FSAA is weak. The 5500's FSAA kicks ass. That's why hi-res looks so much better on a GTS than FSAA does .

BFG10K:

<< High resolutions are simply far better than any low resolution mosh of pixels. >>

agreed, except the FSAA on a 5500 isn't a &quot;mosh of pixels&quot;. If you ever tried one, you'd know. Of course, you have used NEITHER the GTS NOR the 5500, so you don't have the faintest clue what you're talking about. Youre' just talking out of your ass and regurgitating BS you have read somewhere.



<< The reason why 3dfx keeps saying otherwise is because their boards suck at high res even more than they do at low res. >>

and the reason why nvidiots keep saying otherwise is because their boards suck at FSAA even more than they do in 16-bit

Hans:

<< hey you two nvidoits. Get both boards!. Try them both. I did. 800x600 with fsaa is far better than 1280x1024 without it. >>

in some cases (NFSU), FSAA is definitely superior. In other cases (Q3/UT), it's not so superior, IMHO.

Hans, Wingznut, realize that BFG10k and Doomguy are both mindless parrots. They memorize information on a website somewhere, then regurgitate with ZERO KNOWLEDGE of what they're actually talking about. BFG has not used EITHER a 5500, NOR a Radeon, NOR a GTS, but he'll tell you everything about the cards that you want to know. He's an expert on them all, because he reads websites.

Doomguy...well, he's just a child that takes his thumb out of his mouth long enough to whine about whatever. He likes to make statements that are so obviously ridiculous, you just laugh at him. It's pretty obvious he's never used a 5500 or a Radeon. He may have a GTS, not sure.

Regardless, just understand what it is you're dealing with. 2 kids with their heads in the sand.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
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Thanks for clearing that up, Robo.

Those two remind me of a guy name Hardware, around here. Ever heard of him? j/k

They act as if 3dfx burned down their village, or something.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
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It would be an interesting experiment to let loose PEZ, Robo, Doom, and BFG in a collosseum(sp?) for one big mighty 3dfx vs nVidia slugfest.
I wonder who would win...
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
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Seems to be a lot of odd views about FSAA here.

&quot;Although, pics really don't do FSAA justice. You have to experience it, to be able to judge it.&quot;

Several years using dozens of different hardware and software implementations here, yourself?

&quot;And don't even bother trying to base your claims on nVidia's FSAA, because it's not even in the ballpark of the V5.&quot;

Yes, they are most definately in the same ballpark, little league. The fact is that both of their solutions are very low end, decidedly weak and not comparable to render engines several years old. I think they look very close to each other, neither of them are very impressive compared to a proper 16X FSAA implementation rendered at 8000x8000 and then resized down to 640x480 for output to video. They both are poor.

&quot;There's more to FSAA than &quot;jaggies&quot;. Well, at least on the V5 that's the case. Pixel popping and swimming/shimmering are a couple examples of how it improves overall image quality.&quot;

And you introduce haloing(high contrast) and blurring(objects viewed from a distance). The V5 is in reality worse in both cases due to its' useage of RGSS, the same things that give it an advantage to alleviate the flaws that your eyes are trained to pick up on, it increases the flaws that I look for(in terms of FSAA). Which way do you want to go? Neither of them are far off from each other, though I think that the V5 does hold an overall edge in FSAA quality, just a small one.

&quot;I've done many comparisons (FSAA vs NoFSAA/higher res) on many games. And not one, did I find looked better without FSAA. Especially Madden, NHL, MDK2, and in particular, NFS5. That game is simply gorgeous with FSAA enabled.&quot;

If that is your taste all the power to you, but on a mathematical basis utilizing the resolution that the pixel data processed would allow is superior. For 1024x768 2X, 1536x1152 would be the comparable resolution. Of course, if your monitor can't handle it then that is a non issue.

&quot;yes, hi-res sure is better, ON A GTS. The GTS's FSAA is weak. The 5500's FSAA kicks ass. That's why hi-res looks so much better on a GTS than FSAA does&quot;

They are both weak, and very weak at that. The V5 is the better implementation if you are looking for the effect it causes, the GF2 is more accurate to the native pixel data. The GF boards also have higher levels of native pixel accuracy then 3dfx boards(required in the pro market), which makes the impact of FSAA less noticeable. Pixel popping is a rarity on my GF, particularly with the latest drivers(this has been an issue that nV has worked on more due to the Quadro market then the games, but the end results benefit all GF based owners).

&quot;agreed, except the FSAA on a 5500 isn't a &quot;mosh of pixels&quot;.&quot;

You can certainly argue with a strong point that any FSAA is a mosh of pixel. The effect takes pixel data and blends it together, taking four accurate samples and producing one which more then likely is not true to any of the native pixels. Mainly the problem with current gfx boards FSAA is that they sample at such an incredibly low rate that your averages are weighted improperly, a problem which is compounded by the V5's FSAA.

&quot;in some cases (NFS-PU), FSAA is definitely superior&quot;

I agree with you absolutely in this case. Racing games and flight sims are well known for having serious aliasing artifacts and the accurate represntation of the data looks very poor. When a time comes that they work around these issues, perhaps expanding the level of mips for racing games and increasing the poly count significantly for flight sims, then it should be a case of higher res being superior.
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
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<< They act as if 3dfx burned down their village, or something. >>

yeah, or maybe scott sellers said something about their mothers. Dunno man.




<< It would be an interesting experiment to let loose PEZ, Robo, Doom, and BFG in a collosseum(sp?) for one big mighty 3dfx vs nVidia slugfest.
I wonder who would win...
>>

Well, considering that Doom has never used a 5500, and BFG has used NEITHER a 5500 OR a GTS, I find it interesting that they even open their mouths, considering all they can do is regurgitate a bunch of stuff they read. Kinda like a 9-year old arguing about who the greatest hockey player of all time is/was, when he was never even alive to see Bobby Orr play
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
2,034
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Ben:



<< &quot;And don't even bother trying to base your claims on nVidia's FSAA, because it's not even in the ballpark of the V5.&quot;

Yes, they are most definitely in the same ballpark, little league. The fact is that both of their solutions are very low end, decidedly weak and not comparable to render engines several years old. I think they look very close to each other, neither of them are very impressive compared to a proper 16X FSAA implementation rendered at 8000x8000 and then resized down to 640x480 for output to video. They both are poor.
>>

oh for christ's sakes Ben. Yeah, and the Porsche 911 Turbo is a POS car because it can't go as fast as a McLaren Formula1 racer. <knock-knock> BACK TO REALITY BENJI!!! C'mon man, get real!



<< you introduce haloing(high contrast) and blurring(objects viewed from a distance). The V5 is in reality worse in both cases due to its' useage of RGSS, the same things that give it an advantage to alleviate the flaws that your eyes are trained to pick up on, it increases the flaws that I look for(in terms of FSAA). >>

that's why they stuck the lodbias slider in their drivers Ben. very few websites have the intelligence to even look for this type of thing, that's why it gets so little mention.



<< If that is your taste all the power to you, but on a mathematical basis utilizing the resolution that the pixel data processed blah blah blah >>

for the love of God man, get your head outta the books and play a few games before you spout this stuff! You just get done studying for a Calculus exam or something? Good lord man. mathmatics, blah....just play the frickin' game and tell me what looks better to you.

&quot;For 1024x768 2X, 1536x1152 would be the comparable resolution.&quot; for a GTS, it would (1.5x1.5 supersampling). Not so with the 5500 in the cases I tried.



<< You can certainly argue with a strong point that any FSAA is a mosh of pixel. >>

indeed, if you want to get technical about it, sure.



<< Mainly the problem with current gfx boards FSAA is that they sample at such an incredibly low rate that your averages are weighted improperly, a problem which is compounded by the V5's FSAA. >>

please define &quot;weighted improperly&quot;. thx.



<< Racing games and flight sims are well known for having serious aliasing artifacts and the accurate represntation of the data looks very poor. When a time comes that they work around these issues, perhaps expanding the level of mips for racing games and increasing the poly count significantly for flight sims, then it should be a case of higher res being superior. >>

indeed. 2 more things have to happen tho, which are kinda obvious: faster CPUs (as these games are highly CPU dependent) and the proliferation of hi-quality 21&quot; monitors.

As it stands, IMHO, 1600x1200 in NFSU does NOT look better than 1024x768 w/4xFSAA - we needs 1920x1440 at least to really see hi-res work better than FSAA in games like that


 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
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Ben, call it whatever you want. Run the mathmatics, spew out tech specs, and outlandish claims.

But the fact is, that games look better with FSAA enabled.

&quot;Several years using dozens of different hardware and software implementations here, yourself? &quot;
Myself? Several months of using a V5. How much time have you spent with a V5 in your machine?
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
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RoboTECH-

&quot;oh for christ's sakes Ben. Yeah, and the Porsche 911 Turbo is a POS car because it can't go as fast as a McLaren Formula1 racer. <knock-knock> BACK TO REALITY BENJI!!! C'mon man, get real!&quot;

A Camaro/Mustang analogy would be much better suited. I've seen FSAA for dozens of different software render engines and hardware accelerators. The V5 and GF2 are quite close, though I do think that the V5 has an overall edge. There is more to FSAA then what 3dfx's press kit says. Removal of jaggies, absolutely the V5 has a decent margin, as it does with texture swimming, though that is reduced the lower you set the LOD.

&quot;that's why they stuck the lodbias slider in their drivers Ben. very few websites have the intelligence to even look for this type of thing, that's why it gets so little mention.&quot;

Doesn't matter. The LOD bias slider helps with the blurring issue, but not haloing at all. In fact, due to the increased sharpness haloing is in fact worse when utilizing the LOD bias slider(though it would likely be nearly always worth it). Also, the FSAA image will still suffer from blurring on far distance objects compared to non FSAA shots, always with any of the current boards, though the LOD certainly helps you find your own balance on that issue.

&quot;for the love of God man, get your head outta the books and play a few games before you spout this stuff! You just get done studying for a Calculus exam or something? Good lord man. mathmatics, blah....just play the frickin' game and tell me what looks better to you.&quot;

Higher res almost always, no matter which board. Higher resolution has greater levels of detail, LOD adjustments or not. More pixel data per frame results in higher information densities and hence more detail. When we &quot;run out of res&quot; I'll change my tune. BTW- I never did believe in studying even in my school years, you either know that material or you don't

&quot;please define &quot;weighted improperly&quot;. thx.&quot;

Due to the low number of samples you are calculating an entire pixel, information wise, on four points(assuming 4x of course). With the GF2 these points are still in order and spaced evenly, but they do not take into account the relative position of the pixel data in regards to the Z-Buffer depth, the actual process of blending the pixels is entirely handled on a 2D basis. Because of this you ignore the heavier weighting that should be associated with objects closer in proximity to the camera.

The V5 has that and more. Because of RGSS and the sampling that they use(rotating the sampling grid) you end up sampling clusters which give a heavy weighting to a very small area. You end up sampling small areas numerous times and leave entire pixel size areas with no samples taken at all. Because of optimal lines, this helps to reduce jaggies moreso then nV's or ATi's OGSS, but FSAA isn't all about reducing common game based artifacts as many make it out to be. One of the main reasons that many like it in the high end arena is because of the image softening effect, though trying to achieve that without the flaws native to FSAA(the reason for obscene sampling/resolutions being used).

&quot;for a GTS, it would (1.5x1.5 supersampling). Not so with the 5500 in the cases I tried.&quot;

Doh!, and onnly in OpenGL with the GF2 for that matter. That should have stated approximately.

&quot;As it stands, IMHO, 1600x1200 in NFSU does NOT look better than 1024x768 w/4xFSAA - we needs 1920x1440 at least to really see hi-res work better than FSAA in games like that&quot;

I'd go further and say 2048x1536 Seriously, I absolutely agree with you on this point. The NFS series in particular seems to have very nasty texture aliasing. Unfortunately for me, I can't run 1024x768 4x on my DDR(a bit slow for my tastes), I'm stuck running 1600x1200 though that is certainly better then what my TNT1 ran
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
WignutPEZ-

You must have posted your reply right after I started typing mine-

Ben, call it whatever you want. Run the mathmatics, spew out tech specs, and outlandish claims.

But the fact is, that games look better with FSAA enabled.


If you think they do then great, I'm not arguing that at all. What you like is the most important part as it always is, when did I say anything contrary to that?

Myself? Several months of using a V5. How much time have you spent with a V5 in your machine?

My machine? None, I can't trash my OpenGL system files. How much time hae I spent with the card total, a decent amount, and I do think that it has an edge in quality for FSAA when gaming(nasty running wireframe mode in applications, though the GF boards aren't much better), but very minor. To bring up RoboTECH's analogy, if you drive a McLaren you probably still can see that the Camaro is faster then the Mustang, but they both seem slow even though to the drivers of those cars .5 second in the 1/4 seems like forever.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
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I think that Robo's McLaren analogy was accurate, considering that you tried comparing a home PC with a $300 video card, to &quot;neither of them are very impressive compared to a proper 16X FSAA implementation rendered at 8000x8000 and then resized &quot;

What kind of machine can do that? Certainly no home PC.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
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&quot;What kind of machine can do that? Certainly no home PC.&quot;

I figured you would say that I'm uploading a screenshot now of what I'm talking about and yes, it is on a home PC. It also has motion blur and has been out for years-

Link for you.

I never said anything about how many frames per, uhh, day(no joke) this produces
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
2,034
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<< &quot;oh for christ's sakes Ben. Yeah, and the Porsche 911 Turbo is a POS car because it can't go as fast as a McLaren Formula1 racer. <knock-knock> BACK TO REALITY BENJI!!! C'mon man, get real!&quot;
A Camaro/Mustang analogy would be much better suited.
>>



actually, no. A camaero/Mustang analogy would *not* be appropriate here. You're talking about comparing the GTS/5500 cards' FSAA to a graphics system that can supersample 8k x 8k w/16 samples. HOLY MOTHER OF GOD DUDE!!! That sounds like that insane board with the 32 VSA-100's on it that that one company makes for military simulations and stuff, hehe....probably a bit more expensive than even the GTS-U or 6000, eh?



<< The LOD bias slider helps with the blurring issue, but not haloing at all. In fact, due to the increased sharpness haloing is in fact worse when utilizing the LOD bias slider(though it would likely be nearly always worth it). Also, the FSAA image will still suffer from blurring on far distance objects compared to non FSAA shots, always with any of the current boards, though the LOD certainly helps you find your own balance on that issue. >>

indeed, and for games like Q3 or UT, where a clean image way off in the distance means the difference between a successful railshot or headshot, I agree with your point. However, if I'm driving, I can only see as far as the next turn, and my vision notices the jaggies and the pixel crawling and the popping textures and whatnot more than anything. That's where FSAA really stands out (and where I use it)

Now then, as far as your description of &quot;improper weighting&quot;, i understand what you mean as far as FSAA vs. regular resolution, but it makes NO sense how you can say that RGSS is &quot;worse&quot; than OGSS for this.



<< As it stands, IMHO, 1600x1200 in NFSU does NOT look better than 1024x768 w/4xFSAA - we needs 1920x1440 at least to really see hi-res work better than FSAA in games like that&quot;
I'd go further and say 2048x1536
>>



oh sure, well, we're talking about Mr. &quot;8000x8000x FSAAx16&quot; here, heh....


 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
2,034
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<< (talking about the 8000x8000 w/FSAAx16 that Ben was talking about) I never said anything about how many frames per, uhh, day(no joke) this produces >>



hehehe...sure, I'll play Quake3 with blazing speed like that!

 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
actually, no. A camaero/Mustang analogy would *not* be appropriate here. You're talking about comparing the GTS/5500 cards' FSAA to a graphics system that can supersample 8k x 8k w/16 samples

I'll explain why I chose those. I was speaking solely from a quality standpoint. First off, using 8Kx8K res is so I can downsample the image, if I drop the res down to MPEG2 friendly resolutions, say 1000x1000 just to make it simple, it equates out to the same as running 1000x1000 with 256X FSAA(no joke).

The Camaro/Mustang comparison whas saying that they are the GF2 and V5, the McLaren is a software driven render engine capable of the level of quality that I see every day. To me, the GF2's and V5's FSAA looks very close, they both look very poor in comparison but they are a step in the right direction. Putting an image that has an effective 256X FSAA up against either of them they both look like sh!t, just the V5 looks a small amount better. Of course, using full radiosity and ray tracing effects on top of significantly higher levels of precission of software render engines will do that even at like settings.

&quot;However, if I'm driving, I can only see as far as the next turn, and my vision notices the jaggies and the pixel crawling and the popping textures and whatnot more than anything. That's where FSAA really stands out (and where I use it)&quot;

I agree completely.

&quot;Now then, as far as your description of &quot;improper weighting&quot;, i understand what you mean as far as FSAA vs. regular resolution, but it makes NO sense how you can say that RGSS is &quot;worse&quot; than OGSS for this.&quot;

I never could explain this well, Jukka made a nice diagram of it when we were discussing this with the authors of the 3dfx White Paper(Dave and Kristoff over at B3D), it makes it a lot simpler to see though if you download the 3dfx white paper, from 3dfx's site, you can see the sampling patter and what I'm talking about with sampling proximity.

One thing that may work to display it, draw a box, divide it into sixteen segments with four sections(middle of large box top/bottom and side/side) clearly divided. Next, draw a dot in the center of each of the small boxes, and then imagine that you rotate those dots all the same ~30 degree angle. Look at what you have, clusters near the edge of each pixel. If you expand this out it creates areas that are an entire pixel in size which no samples are taken from.

&quot;oh sure, well, we're talking about Mr. &quot;8000x8000x FSAAx16&quot; here, heh....&quot;

I stated 2048x1536 as it is the resolution that is equual to the data needed to push 1024x768 4X FSAA.

&quot;hehehe...sure, I'll play Quake3 with blazing speed like that!&quot;

Hehe, Timedemo1 could take a month or more But hey, it would have the best d@mn visuals you ever saw out of the game
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
2,034
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ok dude, gotcha.

WRT the difference in FSAA methods, I understand much of the &quot;theory and science&quot; behind it, i'm just telling you, that despite the increased &quot;inaccuracy&quot; that RGSS presents, it still looks better.

so nyah!
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
22,709
2,996
126
BFG has not used EITHER a 5500, NOR a Radeon, NOR a GTS, but he'll tell you everything about the cards that you want to know. He's an expert on them all, because he reads websites.

Actually I have seen the original GF in action a lot because a friend of mine has one. FSAA looks really good in Unreal and Q3 and the 2D display is fine. True the S3TX issue is there in Quake 3, but turning it off doesn't hamper the fps if you run the game at around 800 x 600 res.

You zombies complain about image quality? Look at the V3 in Q3! This thing is ugly as hell. The textures are all blurred and smeared and there is horrible banding in the sky and in any kind of fog. Not to mention the fps are absolute crapola.

And what about you RoboTech? Have you extensively tried a Radeon?
 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
20,212
17
81
i have a geforce. It looks like crap in excel at higher than 1024x768. Totally unusable at 1600x1200 without killing your eyes on my 19&quot; monitor. My voodoo3, voodoo5, and matrox g400 did not have the same problem. That is what i am talking about image quality. Its real important to a lot of people, sharkyextreme for one actually talks about it in their reviews.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
11,641
0
76
Hans that sounds like a driver/monitor/bad cable problem to me.
Ive gone from G200 Millennium, to a TNT1, to a i752, and they all looked exactly the same to me, on a 19&quot; .26 monitor, running 1280x1024.

Ive never been able to tell the differnce in 2D quality on any modern card, cept with extremely high end monitors running very high resolutions.
 

hans007

Lifer
Feb 1, 2000
20,212
17
81
i am super nitpicky, i run the background all white, etc when i get a new card. Half my card decision is about 2d quality. As for the geforce it was decent at 1280 , not as good as the other cards, but i did check the cables, moved it all to another room, etc and it was still bad. I tried 2 geforces actually, a v6800 64mb ddr and a elsa erazor x. I thought the elsa would be better since they used better video buffers and its the same as a quadro, but the elsa turned out being a lot worse than the asus. When i used to have the matrox it was so nice, just couldn't play my games at decent speeds, so had to get a 3dfx.
 

Wingznut

Elite Member
Dec 28, 1999
16,968
2
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&quot;Look at the V3 in Q3! &quot;
Oh yeah? Well, I ran Q3 on a Riva128zx, and man did it look bad. I guess nVidia sucks.

Why you are comparing a V3 is beyond me.
 
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