VA Tech shooter was laughed at

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
No man is an island, entire of itself, not even Vic.

Oh sure, a lonely ostracized kid reaches out for another human being and where do we send him? To a psychiatrist. Who will listen to him for an allotted hour, categorize him, and give him pills.

 

[glutenberg]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: glutenberg

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: glutenberg
Do you have a solution for the way children treat children Vic?

I imagine the solution lies in the way that parents treat other parents.

It's probably more along the lines of how parents act in front of their children in regards to others. This will eventually lead to a case of are there children who are just naturally mischievous that are outside of the influences of their parents and what to do with them.

I won't disagree but, ask yourself, how well have generalizations and impersonalizations, like you're using, worked to combat this problem thus far?

I'll admit, none. But how combatable is the problem to begin with. Categorizing of people is instinctual and as long as people are able to categorize, a negative trait will be born. Even with your propose root to the solution, how would you change the way parents treat others? You can't force someone to be civil and even if you could, how will you monitor what goes on in their home where the children are influenced the most?

 

[tomywishbone]

I would have laughed at him as well. Dude acted, spoke, and looked like an idiot.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: glutenberg

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: glutenberg

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: glutenberg
Do you have a solution for the way children treat children Vic?

I imagine the solution lies in the way that parents treat other parents.

It's probably more along the lines of how parents act in front of their children in regards to others. This will eventually lead to a case of are there children who are just naturally mischievous that are outside of the influences of their parents and what to do with them.

I won't disagree but, ask yourself, how well have generalizations and impersonalizations, like you're using, worked to combat this problem thus far?

I'll admit, none. But how combatable is the problem to begin with. Categorizing of people is instinctual and as long as people are able to categorize, a negative trait will be born. Even with your propose root to the solution, how would you change the way parents treat others? You can't force someone to be civil and even if you could, how will you monitor what goes on in their home where the children are influenced the most?

I think we can do better than our passive-aggressive culture of indifference. That's all.

 

[blackllotus]

Originally posted by: tomywishbone
I would have laughed at him as well. Dude acted, spoke, and looked like an idiot.

Does that make you feel tough?

 

[glutenberg]

Originally posted by: Vic
I think we can do better than our passive-aggressive culture of indifference. That's all.

Agreed.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
No man is an island, entire of itself, not even Vic.

Oh sure, a lonely ostracized kid reaches out for another human being and where do we send him? To a psychiatrist. Who will listen to him for an allotted hour, categorize him, and give him pills.

I haven't paid much attention to the details, but we didn't even do that until he was stalking some girls, did we?

What was that old African proverb Hillary got blasted for saying, "It takes a village to raise a child". I think there is a lot of truth in that and that's why I say we are all to blame.

 

[senseamp]

In fairness, his parents failed too. I mean this kid was clearly troubled from an early age, and they didn't do enough if anything to get him the mental health care he needed while he was a minor in their custody.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
No man is an island, entire of itself, not even Vic.

Oh sure, a lonely ostracized kid reaches out for another human being and where do we send him? To a psychiatrist. Who will listen to him for an allotted hour, categorize him, and give him pills.

I haven't paid much attention to the details, but we didn't even do that until he was stalking some girls, did we?

What was that old African proverb Hillary got blasted for saying, "It takes a village to raise a child". I think there is a lot of truth in that and that's why I say we are all to blame.

She got blasted IMO because even that is just a cover for the truth (which for some reason we dare not speak). It doesn't take a village, it takes love. Something which is decidedly lacking our society. Decidedly. Our culture has become more indifferent, more impersonal, to each other than a herd of cattle. We are labels, groups, and categories to each other, but never real human beings. Even our charity and good deeds have become institutionalized and impersonalized, and our punishment for those who deviate from what society accepts as proper is cruel, brutal, remorseless, and driven by mindless fear. It is really any wonder then that the more mentally unstable among us tend to snap?

 

[glutenberg]

Originally posted by: senseamp
In fairness, his parents failed too. I mean this kid was clearly troubled from an early age, and they didn't do enough if anything to get him the mental health care he needed while he was a minor in their custody.

How would you, as a parent, in their situation, have handled the raising of an introverted child differently? They did a good job with his sister providing her with a means to get into Princeton.

 

[umbrella39]

I agree with the OP. I never experienced bullying in schools but witnessed it and intervened whenever I saw it happening. That is how my parents raised me. To be kind to everyone (save you a$$sholes posting here ) and to defend people less fortunate than myself. I passed this along to my own kids and thankfully, it took.

I agree 100% that parents are to blame if and only when their kids bullying has been brought to their attention and they then do nothing about it. Whether it be apathy or because they, too, were bullies, I feel they bear the brunt of the blame for this "culture of bullying". To be honest, I did not see much of it when I was growing up because most kids parents were like my parents and raised them to be the same way. But some of the crap I hear about in my kids schools is terrible. Kids have always been bullies, true, but I think it has gotten way out of control in this country and no one seems to be able or willing to do anything about it.

Whatever happened to kids calling their friends parents by Mr. or Mrs., not by their first names which went away some time in the 80's I think? Maybe that is just a SE Michigan thing but I can't remember the last time I heard a kid address an adult as Mr. or Mrs. I think we lost a bit of authority with our kids the day that practice ended. I went off on a tangent I know, I was just thinking about that the other day and wondered if anyone else experiences this in their neck of the woods? Maybe down south it is still a common practice to address your elders properly?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
No man is an island, entire of itself, not even Vic.

Oh sure, a lonely ostracized kid reaches out for another human being and where do we send him? To a psychiatrist. Who will listen to him for an allotted hour, categorize him, and give him pills.

I haven't paid much attention to the details, but we didn't even do that until he was stalking some girls, did we?

What was that old African proverb Hillary got blasted for saying, "It takes a village to raise a child". I think there is a lot of truth in that and that's why I say we are all to blame.

She got blasted IMO because even that is just a cover for the truth (which for some reason we dare not speak). It doesn't take a village, it takes love. Something which is decidedly lacking our society. Decidedly. Our culture has become more indifferent, more impersonal, to each other than a herd of cattle. We are labels, groups, and categories to each other, but never real human beings. Even our charity and good deeds have become institutionalized and impersonalized, and our punishment for those who deviate from what society accepts as proper is cruel, brutal, remorseless, and driven by mindless fear. It is really any wonder then that the more mentally unstable among us tend to snap?

It's no wonder to me.

I have an almost 27 year old daughter (who is severly bi-polar) and her 3 1/2 year old child living with us for the last 2 1/2 years and it isn't easy. There have been times when my wife was afraid to sleep at night. There is no end in sight either, so yes, it takes love and lots of it.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: glutenberg

Originally posted by: senseamp
In fairness, his parents failed too. I mean this kid was clearly troubled from an early age, and they didn't do enough if anything to get him the mental health care he needed while he was a minor in their custody.

How would you, as a parent, in their situation, have handled the raising of an introverted child differently? They did a good job with his sister providing her with a means to get into Princeton.

Take him to get therapy and psychiatric drugs if necessary. I mean other parents stick their kids on drugs because they are too active, but this guy was clearly troubled, and not being treated for it at all. As far as her getting into Princeton, there is more to raising a kid than making sure he does well in school. And everyone is different. Maybe his sister does not have the personality traits that he has. It's nature and nurture. He had a natural personality issue that needed to be taken care of through nurture by getting him appropriate care. Instead he was put into an environment that made the problem worse. He's naturally intraverted, he gets bullied, he becomes even more intraverted and angry, it's a vicious cycle that noone bothers to break until its too late.

 

[CPA]

Vic I generally agree with you, but this is not one of them.

I am polish and have a unique (polish) last name. I was picked on ruthlessly as a kid because of it. I was bullied quite a bit as well and even though I played football, most of my friends (a small group that it was) were not football players. I had long hair, but didn't hang out with the potheads and smokers. I was quite different. But......I never let the excuse of someone bullying me or teasing me to make me feel hatred towards anyone or myself. My actions are my own doing, no one can make me feel a certain way. If I do, it's because I chose to do so. And I tell my kids the same (my oldest gets bullied at times).

The fact that some people tried to reach out to him during highschool and college tells me that there was someone out there for him to communicate and bond with. He chose not to, for his own reasons. He then made the excuses, as stated on the video tape, as his alibi for the shootings. That's his fault, not some bully from middle-school.

 

[sandorski]

I don't know if a Law is necessary, but certainly Teachers, Parents, and others in Authority over Children need to be more active in preventing Bullying. Children(<18 in most cases) need Adult supervision whenever they are in large groups. Certainly it's more difficult to do so when they reach their Teens, but if they were properly supervised at younger ages and Bullying was dealt with swiftly then, there would be less need to supervise them in their Teens.

 

[glutenberg]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: glutenberg

Originally posted by: senseamp
In fairness, his parents failed too. I mean this kid was clearly troubled from an early age, and they didn't do enough if anything to get him the mental health care he needed while he was a minor in their custody.

How would you, as a parent, in their situation, have handled the raising of an introverted child differently? They did a good job with his sister providing her with a means to get into Princeton.

Take him to get therapy and psychiatric drugs if necessary. I mean other parents stick their kids on drugs because they are too active, but this guy was clearly troubled, and not being treated for it at all. As far as her getting into Princeton, there is more to raising a kid than making sure he does well in school. And everyone is different. Maybe his sister does not have the personality traits that he has. It's nature and nurture. He had a natural personality issue that needed to be taken care of through nurture by getting him appropriate care. Instead he was put into an environment that made the problem worse. He's naturally intraverted, he gets bullied, he becomes even more intraverted and angry, it's a vicious cycle that noone bothers to break until its too late.

Many Asian kids are introverted. Hell, I myself am introverted but that doesn't mean that we all need to visit the nearest psychiatrist and get on some meds.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: CPA
Vic I generally agree with you, but this is not one of them.

I am polish and have a unique (polish) last name. I was picked on ruthlessly as a kid because of it. I was bullied quite a bit as well and even though I played football, most of my friends (a small group that it was) were not football players. I had long hair, but didn't hang out with the potheads and smokers. I was quite different. But......I never let the excuse of someone bullying me or teasing me to make me feel hatred towards anyone or myself. My actions are my own doing, no one can make me feel a certain way. If I do, it's because I chose to do so. And I tell my kids the same (my oldest gets bullied at times).

The fact that some people tried to reach out to him during highschool and college tells me that there was someone out there for him to communicate and bond with. He chose not to, for his own reasons. He then made the excuses, as stated on the video tape, as his alibi for the shootings. That's his fault, not some bully from middle-school.

To be clear: I'm not blaming anyone but the shooter himself. There have been sweeping comments made about our society and our "culture of death," etc., and I am making the point that if we need to make such sweeping generalizations, then they need to go where they really truly belong, which is against our "culture of indifference," i.e. our utterly loveless machine society.

And to be honest, I was bullied in school at times too, mostly in elementary school. Ironically, for being too skinny, which has served me well in adulthood while the rest of my peers have gotten fat.

 

[Starbuck1975]

Just like in Paducah, Springfield, and Columbine, we have a situation where a mentally disturbed loner was picked on until he snapped. And yet, amidst all the knee-jerker cries for gun control, no one is arguing for an end to the bullying. WHY?

Cry me a river...life isn't fair, and the more rules we set to protect people from the bullies and the meanies of this world, the less able they will be able to cope with other situations that present some form of adversity.

Maybe we should instead target the mommy and daddy culture of modern America, where parents attempt to protect their children from society rather than teach them how to function within it.

I am sure many members of this very forum faced bullies and harassment growing up...I know I certainly did...my father's solution...he didn't go complaining to the school Principal or the other kids' parents...he taught me how to stick up for myself, which IMO is a far more valuable lesson.

 

[glutenberg]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Just like in Paducah, Springfield, and Columbine, we have a situation where a mentally disturbed loner was picked on until he snapped. And yet, amidst all the knee-jerker cries for gun control, no one is arguing for an end to the bullying. WHY?

Cry me a river...life isn't fair, and the more rules we set to protect people from the bullies and the meanies of this world, the less able they will be able to cope with other situations that present some form of adversity.

Maybe we should instead target the mommy and daddy culture of modern America, where parents attempt to protect their children from society rather than teach them how to function within it.

I am sure many members of this very forum faced bullies and harassment growing up...I know I certainly did...my father's solution...he didn't go complaining to the school Principal or the other kids' parents...he taught me how to stick up for myself, which IMO is a far more valuable lesson.

I highly doubt Cho's parents were teaching them using the mommy and daddy culture of America seeing as how they're fairly recent immigrants. And the whole, "life isn't fair attitude," is stupid. So, why not say, boohoo, life isn't fair, 32 people died, so what. Cho's parents didn't go in and have a talk with the principal. Why the hell is anyone even trying to argue this point as if it's the reason for the tragedy? Is your political agenda that damn important?

 

[razor2025]

Originally posted by: CPA
Vic I generally agree with you, but this is not one of them.

I am polish and have a unique (polish) last name. I was picked on ruthlessly as a kid because of it. I was bullied quite a bit as well and even though I played football, most of my friends (a small group that it was) were not football players. I had long hair, but didn't hang out with the potheads and smokers. I was quite different. But......I never let the excuse of someone bullying me or teasing me to make me feel hatred towards anyone or myself. My actions are my own doing, no one can make me feel a certain way. If I do, it's because I chose to do so. And I tell my kids the same (my oldest gets bullied at times).

The fact that some people tried to reach out to him during highschool and college tells me that there was someone out there for him to communicate and bond with. He chose not to, for his own reasons. He then made the excuses, as stated on the video tape, as his alibi for the shootings. That's his fault, not some bully from middle-school.

I too was mocked during middle school, but I was able to brush it off and branch out to have other friends, I would assume my example would be the rule and not an exception.

Ultimately, it was entirely his decision to snap and kill those people. But make no mistake, our society had its hands upon shaping of this individual. I share a good bit of Cho's background. I came to states at 8, with my parents not being extremely poor nor wealthy. I had trouble communicating early on, no doubt with language barrier (but mostly, it's cultural barrier). I did suffer the same views (not as extreme) with Cho early on, but by end of my high-school days, it changed to more moderate-cynical view. The point is, Cho had rought start in life compared to most of his peers. His views aren't too unique to those who didn't have "rich daddy & mommy" or was the most "popular kid in the school". From the way things are now, this problem will get worse. There really isn't a simple solution to this, but at least recognizing and understanding the problem by the general populace is a good start. The media frenzy and focus on politicized topics makes this worse.

Fix the root of the problem, not the "hot" issue surrounding it. Even if we somehow manage to strip away all guns from citizens, someone like Cho can use other methods to inflict their view upon others. Homemade Napalm is really easy to make, and so are pipe bombs. Hell, all it takes is a blade to make someone lose their life unnecessarily.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: glutenberg

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Shivetya
It still does not excuse his actions. He was a dangerous person, medically decided, who was still allowed to operate in the real world. That is like having a ticking time bomb in your possession or playing Russian roulette.

Do not try to justify or excuse his actions, they aren't. What you are doing is nothing more original than rapist saying her ways of dressing made them rape her or "she asked for it" .

Pure idiocy.

Face it, there are some people not fit to be in society and its a crime if we identify them and don't do anything about it

Ah, yes... the "kill them before they kill us" mentality, wrapped up in accusations that to think otherwise is to try to excuse/justify a murderer's actions.

Do you have a solution for the way children treat children Vic?

Bad parenting FTL! Kids will be asshats if that is how the parents raise them or let them operate. There is no solution to that since you cannot do much to the parents.

 

[razor2025]

Originally posted by: glutenberg

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975

Just like in Paducah, Springfield, and Columbine, we have a situation where a mentally disturbed loner was picked on until he snapped. And yet, amidst all the knee-jerker cries for gun control, no one is arguing for an end to the bullying. WHY?

Cry me a river...life isn't fair, and the more rules we set to protect people from the bullies and the meanies of this world, the less able they will be able to cope with other situations that present some form of adversity.

Maybe we should instead target the mommy and daddy culture of modern America, where parents attempt to protect their children from society rather than teach them how to function within it.

I am sure many members of this very forum faced bullies and harassment growing up...I know I certainly did...my father's solution...he didn't go complaining to the school Principal or the other kids' parents...he taught me how to stick up for myself, which IMO is a far more valuable lesson.

I highly doubt Cho's parents were teaching them using the mommy and daddy culture of America seeing as how they're fairly recent immigrants. And the whole, "life isn't fair attitude," is stupid. So, why not say, boohoo, life isn't fair, 32 people died, so what. Cho's parents didn't go in and have a talk with the principal. Why the hell is anyone even trying to argue this point as if it's the reason for the tragedy? Is your political agenda that damn important?

"Life isn't fair" excuse are used by those who's blatantly stupid. They refuse to rationalize the deeper problem and resort to simple rhetoric to deal with such complex issue.

Not everyone can handle bullying. Even full-grown adult professional have hard time dealing with bullying in workplace. I'm not surprised that these kids/adults are snapping. We can't always help those that are truly disturbed, but we can damn well try to create environment where individual doesn't espouse such twisted view on reality.

 

[Phokus]

I was bullied when i was younger (not physically, just taunts) and it did have a big affect on me and i did have a lot of anger in me as well. The difference between me and this kid is probably he was a paranoid schizophrenic as well which would have amplified his emotions. If i had the same mental problems, i could have imagined myself acting out on those emotions in a violent way.

 

[Mxylplyx]

Kids will be kids. You cannot stop bullying. I believe bullying is the primal human social behavior of identifying the weak in the herd, only now the weak can get guns and go on rampages.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx
Kids will be kids. You cannot stop bullying. I believe bullying is the primal human social behavior of identifying the weak in the herd, only now the weak can get guns and go on rampages.

You can do a helluva better job at it. The school administrators and teachers turn a blind eye to it more often than not.