VA Tech shooter was laughed at

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Mxylplyx

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: blackangst1
Cant really legislate anti bullying IMHO. No way to enforce it.

Of course there is.

The main problem is one of definition. In the workplace, there's now a pretty clear concept of what "harrassment" means. In the same vein, I don't think it would be all that difficult to come up with a good definition for what "bullying" means. The central concept would be that if you engage in aggressive behavior toward someone and that person asks you to stop, but you continue the behavior, that's bullying. If reported for bullying, you get a warning. If you continue to bully, you get suspended.

Naturally, there would be a problem with phony reports. But I think school administrators have ways of figuring out what's really going on. And if there were an announced policy that knowingly making a false claim of bullying will result in suspension for an entire semester, I think the problem could be handled.

Bullying usually isnt agressive behavior. It's verbal intimidation and putdowns. The more you try to keep kids from being kids, the more you screw them up. Hell, just look at whats happened to kids over the past several decades as we've tried to micromanage their self-esteem, keeping them from ever feeling a sense of failure, shame, etc. They are more screwed up than ever.

Look at what occurred in the former Soviet Union or in Iraq when tremendous oppression and fear are lifted. Repressed self hate explodes easily into violence and chaos. Every time there is a sick situation maintained by external force, the lifting of that force, for the long term good of humanity, leads to short term catastrophe. It is like shaking a bottle of champaign and pulling the cork.

If you suppress bullies the former bullies will seek their revenge.

This is why the left and the right dance. Without some sort of law and order the sickness in society leads to bullies and criminals taking advantage of other folk. Then those who fear and are damaged seek more and more repressive laws to the point that everybody is repressed. Then the left grows stronger and demands a less punitive approach. Then the bullied rise up and seek revenge. The right then rises up to suppress them.

This is the clown act the world goes through because people do not want to know the hidden dynamic, the fact that they hate themselves.

This is why man's only hope is to become conscious. Society can tolerate neither crime and violence nor the repression of criminals and bullies. There is only one treatment, it seems to me, that can work. We need, as a nation and a world, to make it our primary task, to teach people how self hate works, the fact that we all hate ourselves, and that we project that self hate out on the world and blame others for what is wrong with us. There is nothing wrong with us except that we were told and believe there is. Cure that and you save the world. Only there is where we have to focus. Only by making that information available to others can we start to do something that might maybe make a difference.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This is why man's only hope is to become conscious. Society can tolerate neither crime and violence nor the repression of criminals and bullies. There is only one treatment, it seems to me, that can work. We need, as a nation and a world, to make it our primary task, to teach people how self hate works, the fact that we all hate ourselves, and that we project that self hate out on the world and blame others for what is wrong with us.

Even if your diagnosis is correct, there's a major problem with this approach: There's nothing remotely approaching a consensus that "self-hate" is the source of all our problems, including bullying. That being the case, "self-hate education" is a non-starter.

But more general instruction in social psychology, empathy, acceptance, and tolerance would probably be effective, and might actually be practicable.

 

[Aisengard]

Oh man, this is the lamest excuse for what this kid did, ever. It was a topic of discussion among the Columbine kids too. Face it, you act like a complete dick, people aren't going to like you.

What this kid, and what the Columbine kids did, are entirely their own doing. You can't control what people think. And honestly, I wouldn't have liked this self-hating shitheads either. If they go to this extent, it was likely they were f'ed up in the head to begin with.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This is why man's only hope is to become conscious. Society can tolerate neither crime and violence nor the repression of criminals and bullies. There is only one treatment, it seems to me, that can work. We need, as a nation and a world, to make it our primary task, to teach people how self hate works, the fact that we all hate ourselves, and that we project that self hate out on the world and blame others for what is wrong with us.

Even if your diagnosis is correct, there's a major problem with this approach: There's nothing remotely approaching a consensus that "self-hate" is the source of all our problems, including bullying. That being the case, "self-hate education" is a non-starter.

But more general instruction in social psychology, empathy, acceptance, and tolerance would probably be effective, and might actually be practicable.

Bulying is a social problem and there really isn't any quick solution or fix. The attitude that has been developed for todays kids and teenagers have been molded over time to manifest this type of behavior. If you try to punish those who bully consistently you more/less cause other problems if not alienate the kid being bullied. One thing that is apparent is these shootings are happening mainly in the U.S.

 

[steppinthrax]

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Oh man, this is the lamest excuse for what this kid did, ever. It was a topic of discussion among the Columbine kids too. Face it, you act like a complete dick, people aren't going to like you.

What this kid, and what the Columbine kids did, are entirely their own doing. You can't control what people think. And honestly, I wouldn't have liked this self-hating shitheads either. If they go to this extent, it was likely they were f'ed up in the head to begin with.

What did Cho do to act like a dickhead. He was an odd behaving kid. I'm sure he didn't have psychological problems until his bullying. It's was his personality. This "dickhead" thinking is the reason why we have school shootings. The belief that you have that everyone must "follow the sheep" dosen't work well. As a matter of fact it was the same behavior school admins had during columbine when they knew these kids behavior look what happened.

 

[Aisengard]

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Oh man, this is the lamest excuse for what this kid did, ever. It was a topic of discussion among the Columbine kids too. Face it, you act like a complete dick, people aren't going to like you.

What this kid, and what the Columbine kids did, are entirely their own doing. You can't control what people think. And honestly, I wouldn't have liked this self-hating shitheads either. If they go to this extent, it was likely they were f'ed up in the head to begin with.

What did Cho do to act like a dickhead. He was an odd behaving kid. I'm sure he didn't have psychological problems until his bullying. It's was his personality. This "dickhead" thinking is the reason why we have school shootings. The belief that you have that everyone must "follow the sheep" dosen't work well. As a matter of fact it was the same behavior school admins had during columbine when they knew these kids behavior look what happened.

He had psychological problems during his bullying to be affected by it that much. Who wasn't made fun of in middle school? The fact that this kid shot up 32 kids is a pretty good indicator of his mental instability, if not the fact that he has a documented history of mental illness.

From what I've read the Columbine kids were absolute dicks to everyone because they hated everyone, which I guess is required if you were planning on killing every person in the school. From what I've read of this kid, he was a weird guy who didn't talk to anyone, even in high school. He was f'ed up from the beginning, and no amount of coddling except for a straightjacket would have kept this kid from doing what he's wanted to do probably since middle school. The fact that he blames it on everyone else is further proof of his dickish and completely irresponsible attitude.

And what next, should we blame everyone but the terrorists for 9/11?

Oh, I see where you're coming from.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This is why man's only hope is to become conscious. Society can tolerate neither crime and violence nor the repression of criminals and bullies. There is only one treatment, it seems to me, that can work. We need, as a nation and a world, to make it our primary task, to teach people how self hate works, the fact that we all hate ourselves, and that we project that self hate out on the world and blame others for what is wrong with us.

Even if your diagnosis is correct, there's a major problem with this approach: There's nothing remotely approaching a consensus that "self-hate" is the source of all our problems, including bullying. That being the case, "self-hate education" is a non-starter.

But more general instruction in social psychology, empathy, acceptance, and tolerance would probably be effective, and might actually be practicable.

I sympathize with your wish. The stakes, however, in my opinion, are the survival of the human race. I believe that humanity must awaken or go extinct. I believe that only facing that fact can awaken man from his sleep. Your suggestion, in my opinion, is one predicated on the notion that the problem is out there. As long as people maintain the fiction that the world's sickness is NOT a manifestation of their own inner sickness there will be no cure. Only YOU can prevent forest fires. The acceptance you ask for sets the pendulum swinging to eventually repression of what you want accepted.

There is nothing to do. The problem self corrects with self love. That work will not begin as long as there are delusions.

Try to understand that man will do anything but know how he feels. That is what we need to see. He will even chose his own extinction, perhaps. It look, from where I stand, for all the world that way.

Knowledge is power. When you see very clearly that every put down directed at you comes from the self hate of the person directing them at you everything can change. You will still feel the pain, because you already do believe you are worthless, but you do not have to believe with your mind what your emotions say. You can cease to take what you feel to be true seriously. As soon as you see the insanity of hurting others to satisfy your own pain you can hold that pain within yourself. If you crucify your pain it is that much less that is passed on. The more you swallow your own pain the more you can swallow it. The greater the consciousness the less one acts out. Tolerance can't be done by formula and prescription. It needs to be based on something real. Only consciousness can provide real moral foundation.

 

[Moonbeam]

As for a consensus on self hate. I can only suggest you look at how people with obvious low self esteem operate and extrapolate to the world.

For real proof you will have to get in touch with what you feel. You will not believe what you find.

Have you ever said, Just my luck or Why does this always happen to me?

One can at first only go on inference.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
This is why man's only hope is to become conscious. Society can tolerate neither crime and violence nor the repression of criminals and bullies. There is only one treatment, it seems to me, that can work. We need, as a nation and a world, to make it our primary task, to teach people how self hate works, the fact that we all hate ourselves, and that we project that self hate out on the world and blame others for what is wrong with us.

Even if your diagnosis is correct, there's a major problem with this approach: There's nothing remotely approaching a consensus that "self-hate" is the source of all our problems, including bullying. That being the case, "self-hate education" is a non-starter.

But more general instruction in social psychology, empathy, acceptance, and tolerance would probably be effective, and might actually be practicable.

Bulying is a social problem and there really isn't any quick solution or fix. The attitude that has been developed for todays kids and teenagers have been molded over time to manifest this type of behavior. If you try to punish those who bully consistently you more/less cause other problems if not alienate the kid being bullied. One thing that is apparent is these shootings are happening mainly in the U.S.

I said nothing that disagrees with this, did I?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Aisengard

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Oh man, this is the lamest excuse for what this kid did, ever. It was a topic of discussion among the Columbine kids too. Face it, you act like a complete dick, people aren't going to like you.

What this kid, and what the Columbine kids did, are entirely their own doing. You can't control what people think. And honestly, I wouldn't have liked this self-hating shitheads either. If they go to this extent, it was likely they were f'ed up in the head to begin with.

What did Cho do to act like a dickhead. He was an odd behaving kid. I'm sure he didn't have psychological problems until his bullying. It's was his personality. This "dickhead" thinking is the reason why we have school shootings. The belief that you have that everyone must "follow the sheep" dosen't work well. As a matter of fact it was the same behavior school admins had during columbine when they knew these kids behavior look what happened.

He had psychological problems during his bullying to be affected by it that much. Who wasn't made fun of in middle school? The fact that this kid shot up 32 kids is a pretty good indicator of his mental instability, if not the fact that he has a documented history of mental illness.

From what I've read the Columbine kids were absolute dicks to everyone because they hated everyone, which I guess is required if you were planning on killing every person in the school. From what I've read of this kid, he was a weird guy who didn't talk to anyone, even in high school. He was f'ed up from the beginning, and no amount of coddling except for a straightjacket would have kept this kid from doing what he's wanted to do probably since middle school. The fact that he blames it on everyone else is further proof of his dickish and completely irresponsible attitude.

And what next, should we blame everyone but the terrorists for 9/11?

Oh, I see where you're coming from.

You hate people who are F'ed up in the head because you were put down for deviant behavior and told you are F'ed up in the head. You joined the oppressor crowd who maintain conformity. Your conformity is one based on fear and requires oppression to maintain. If you let go you fear what you might do. Your good is the order maintained in a prison. When the guards turn their backs, look out.

All that you fear is really just your own anger at being put down. You were made to feel worthless because you are pissed. Only bad people want to do harm. Hehe, right. Sure!

 

[Vic]

This thread is not about blame. Anyone who insists that it is should take their comprehensional issues elsewhere. This thread is about how the cruelty, indifference, and loneliness of modern society can drive certain emotionally-impaired individuals to insanity and even violence, and what we as a society can do to identify and provide genuine aid to these individuals BEFORE they might murder 32 innocent people.
If you looking to justify being cruel and indifferent others simply because you think they need to "toughen up," I wonder... do you also pick on retards? Or do you like it when other peopel are cruel and indifferent to you? Because that's basically what we're talking about here.

 

[M00T]

It was a failure for both sets of parents. The parents of the bullies raised their children without respect for others, and the shooter's family raised him not to disregard negative people.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
As for a consensus on self hate. I can only suggest you look at how people with obvious low self esteem operate and extrapolate to the world.

99+% of post-pubescent males 5000 years BCE got horny, and almost everyone knew that to be the case. But I guarantee you that no one knew about testosterone.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
As for a consensus on self hate. I can only suggest you look at how people with obvious low self esteem operate and extrapolate to the world.

99+% of post-pubescent males 5000 years BCE got horny, and almost everyone knew that to be the case. But I guarantee you that no one knew about testosterone.

What is your point? Knowing that one is controlled, not by some voice in ones hear or some demonic being, but that one is driven by chemicals makes it easier, in my opinion, not to be a slave to those chemicals nor to fear disobeying them or going with the flow where appropriate, no? Knowledge is power at least in the hands of the wise. Understanding the vital principles of our psychology strikes me as our only hope of salvation. The key is to know that all people were put down and made to hate themselves. That knowledge leads to the question, what were we really meant to be, and opens the door to finding out.

 

[Aisengard]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Aisengard

Originally posted by: steppinthrax

Originally posted by: Aisengard
Oh man, this is the lamest excuse for what this kid did, ever. It was a topic of discussion among the Columbine kids too. Face it, you act like a complete dick, people aren't going to like you.

What this kid, and what the Columbine kids did, are entirely their own doing. You can't control what people think. And honestly, I wouldn't have liked this self-hating shitheads either. If they go to this extent, it was likely they were f'ed up in the head to begin with.

What did Cho do to act like a dickhead. He was an odd behaving kid. I'm sure he didn't have psychological problems until his bullying. It's was his personality. This "dickhead" thinking is the reason why we have school shootings. The belief that you have that everyone must "follow the sheep" dosen't work well. As a matter of fact it was the same behavior school admins had during columbine when they knew these kids behavior look what happened.

He had psychological problems during his bullying to be affected by it that much. Who wasn't made fun of in middle school? The fact that this kid shot up 32 kids is a pretty good indicator of his mental instability, if not the fact that he has a documented history of mental illness.

From what I've read the Columbine kids were absolute dicks to everyone because they hated everyone, which I guess is required if you were planning on killing every person in the school. From what I've read of this kid, he was a weird guy who didn't talk to anyone, even in high school. He was f'ed up from the beginning, and no amount of coddling except for a straightjacket would have kept this kid from doing what he's wanted to do probably since middle school. The fact that he blames it on everyone else is further proof of his dickish and completely irresponsible attitude.

And what next, should we blame everyone but the terrorists for 9/11?

Oh, I see where you're coming from.

You hate people who are F'ed up in the head because you were put down for deviant behavior and told you are F'ed up in the head. You joined the oppressor crowd who maintain conformity. Your conformity is one based on fear and requires oppression to maintain. If you let go you fear what you might do. Your good is the order maintained in a prison. When the guards turn their backs, look out.

All that you fear is really just your own anger at being put down. You were made to feel worthless because you are pissed. Only bad people want to do harm. Hehe, right. Sure!

Oh no, here you go again. Are you going to go off and tell me to look in mirrors, oh prescient one?

No one told me I was f'ed up in the head. I was made fun of in middle school but I got past it. Most people do. Most people don't shoot up schools and blame it on everyone else.

Look. If someone is driven to shoot 32 people, I seriously doubt there's much that could have been done, and people that are suggesting that this kid only shot people because society failed them, well, you're very misguided. There are millions of people in this world who suffered worse conditions than this ****** (he WENT TO COLLEGE! How many people don't even get to do that), and didn't shoot 32 people. The only failure was his own, as Moonie would say, "to look in the mirror and realize his self-hate". Maybe he could have gotten counseling, actually, he was recommended to get counseling, but there's only so much people can do. His parents, especially, should have seen something wrong with their kid and done something about it, but that's really as far as any blame can extend. And yes, when you discuss why society failed this 'poor victim' and what to do about it, you are assigning blame.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Vic
Just like in Paducah, Springfield, and Columbine, we have a situation where a mentally disturbed loner was picked on until he snapped. And yet, amidst all the knee-jerker cries for gun control, no one is arguing for an end to the bullying. WHY?

Are you looking for a "culture of death" in America? Find it here, in the horrible way in which we treat each other. In the way those who can't or won't conform to the group are ostracized and humiliated. How many more need to die before we learn to respect each other, even those who are different from the rest?

As a father of a fifth grader I can assure that the topic of bullying, and it's prevention is big topic in public schools. So, it's been getting addressed long before Cho showed up.

It's usually the "new kid" or the "weird kid" who get picked on. I prolly fit both definitions. I had been in 7 different scholls by fifth grade (family moved often due to my father's job). My father was ex-military and I had to have a crew-cut, while everybody else in the early 70's had long hair etc. My mother made some of my clothes - and they looked it.

Well, needless to say I never killed anybody, much less "innocent" people who actually had nothing to do with prior bullying (I have beat the crap out of a school bully in the past, but that's an another matter).

What I am to conclude? Am I somehow superior? No, I don't think so. Bullying is not really the cause? Hmm.. I think that might be it. Is it possible he has some mental illness only (maybe) exasterbated by what he judges as "bullying"?

He seems to have gone on quite a rant about "white" people, rich people and Christians (Sounds like many in P&N, I've wondering if had an account here). Where is the rant about getting shoved, punched, hit and having his "lunch money" stolen?

I don't see where he targeted his attacked against those that actually bullied him. AFAIK, he didn't even know those he shot (apart from the 1st two possibly).

He shot people of types, male & female, black & white, young & old, Americans & foreigners etc. He seemed to target anything humanoid.

I don't pretend to understand him. I do pretend to know that sometimes there are things that are inexplicable. That there are things that are inexplicable to all but the individual who conceives them. In this age of science & reason, we tend to belive that all things have rational answers; sometimes it just ain't so.

I tend to suspect his "feelings" were symptoms, not the cause.

Fern

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
As for a consensus on self hate. I can only suggest you look at how people with obvious low self esteem operate and extrapolate to the world.

99+% of post-pubescent males 5000 years BCE got horny, and almost everyone knew that to be the case. But I guarantee you that no one knew about testosterone.

What is your point? Knowing that one is controlled, not by some voice in ones hear or some demonic being, but that one is driven by chemicals makes it easier, in my opinion, not to be a slave to those chemicals nor to fear disobeying them or going with the flow where appropriate, no? Knowledge is power at least in the hands of the wise. Understanding the vital principles of our psychology strikes me as our only hope of salvation. The key is to know that all people were put down and made to hate themselves. That knowledge leads to the question, what were we really meant to be, and opens the door to finding out.

My point is that although a behavior is widespread, that doesn't mean that understanding the cause of the behavior is widespread. It was obvious to everyone 5000 B.C.E. that almost all men get horny, but that doesn't mean that it was obvious to everyone what the true cause was.

You observe universal behavior and attribute it to low self-esteem and self-hatred. My point is that others will see the same behavior and attribute it to something else. Thus, you have no consensus on underlying cause and your proposed solution won't get off the ground. That makes your solution worthless from a practical standpoint.

Every true believer "knows" that his truth - if universally adopted - will free the human race and lead to the good society. Trouble is, there are always those stubborn SOBs who insist on believing something different. Trouble is, most of the human race is those stubborn SOBs.

If the best solution has no chance of being implemented and is therefore worthless, a much better course is to find an imperfect solution that actually has a decent chance of being implemented. Otherwise, you're just railing against that wind that shook your house.

 

[Vic]

I don't think we'll ever find a solution to the problem that is the particular individuals that commit these crimes so long as we keep looking to sweeping generalizations for our answers.

Most people can get picked on and not commit violence.

Most people can lose their job and not feel the need to murder their boss.

Most people can get dumped by their girlfriends and not have to storm her workplace for a murder-suicide.

Most postal workers don't go "postal."

Most people can own guns their whole lives and never fire them at another living thing.

Hell, most cops can work their entire careers without ever firing their gun on a suspect.

If environment (nurture) was everything, you could teach calculus to a horse.

If genetics was everything, humans would never have developed calculus.

 

[Uhtrinity]

I work in a public charter school where bullying isn't allowed.

The Harbor Method


IMO it works pretty well, also gives more time to actually learn.

Excerpt:

Focus on Kindness

The Harbor School Method provides a comprehensive plan for character education. Harbor schools employ the Harbor School Method character education plan with its focus on kindness and zero tolerance policy for teasing, taunting, bullying, and negative peer pressure. The Harbor School Method is a proactive solution to the violence that is all too prevalent in schools today. The name Harbor School Method comes from our total commitment to make schools a "safe harbor" for the children entrusted to our care. The Harbor School Method uses a school-to-work emphasis to make its behavior expectations relevant to the real world.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Vic
If environment (nurture) was everything, you could teach calculus to a horse.

I've been teaching calculus to a horse for years.

But the damned animal refuses to learn.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Vic
If genetics was everything, humans would never have developed calculus.

I'm glad you made this point about calculus rather than algebra.

As everybody knows, algebra is definitely genetic. My girlfriend has 2 X's, whereas I have an X and a Y.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Vic
Just like in Paducah, Springfield, and Columbine, we have a situation where a mentally disturbed loner was picked on until he snapped. And yet, amidst all the knee-jerker cries for gun control, no one is arguing for an end to the bullying. WHY?

umm... because it's fun?

Or maybe it's because the kid was just fvckin weak and stupid, and should have been removed from our planet long ago. I know that you'd rather play the blame game and find someone else to point fingers at, or some deep meaning to all of this, but you'd be wrong.

This kid did what he did because he was fvckin stupid and weak. Period.

About the only thing he did right was take his own useless fvckin life.

 

[BoberFett]

If I think you're stupid and weak, can I take you out palehorse? I doubt you'll be missed.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
As for a consensus on self hate. I can only suggest you look at how people with obvious low self esteem operate and extrapolate to the world.

99+% of post-pubescent males 5000 years BCE got horny, and almost everyone knew that to be the case. But I guarantee you that no one knew about testosterone.

What is your point? Knowing that one is controlled, not by some voice in ones hear or some demonic being, but that one is driven by chemicals makes it easier, in my opinion, not to be a slave to those chemicals nor to fear disobeying them or going with the flow where appropriate, no? Knowledge is power at least in the hands of the wise. Understanding the vital principles of our psychology strikes me as our only hope of salvation. The key is to know that all people were put down and made to hate themselves. That knowledge leads to the question, what were we really meant to be, and opens the door to finding out.

My point is that although a behavior is widespread, that doesn't mean that understanding the cause of the behavior is widespread. It was obvious to everyone 5000 B.C.E. that almost all men get horny, but that doesn't mean that it was obvious to everyone what the true cause was.

You observe universal behavior and attribute it to low self-esteem and self-hatred. My point is that others will see the same behavior and attribute it to something else. Thus, you have no consensus on underlying cause and your proposed solution won't get off the ground. That makes your solution worthless from a practical standpoint.

Every true believer "knows" that his truth - if universally adopted - will free the human race and lead to the good society. Trouble is, there are always those stubborn SOBs who insist on believing something different. Trouble is, most of the human race is those stubborn SOBs.

If the best solution has no chance of being implemented and is therefore worthless, a much better course is to find an imperfect solution that actually has a decent chance of being implemented. Otherwise, you're just railing against that wind that shook your house.

That is fine by me. Meanwhile I will focus where the problem is, in my opinion, not on solutions for the sake of them. I do not look at universal behavior and see things, I have experienced that of which I speak. I have had company and guidance on the journey from folk ahead of me.

73 of us sailed up into San Francisco Bay, got of our ship and here's what we had to say..............

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
73 of us sailed up into San Francisco Bay, got of our ship and here's what we had to say..............

I am the walrus?