Value Poll.........Acura, Mercedes, Lexus, BMW or Infiniti

[redgtxdi]

This started w/ me wondering if a 5-series BMW is really worth all the money they ask.

(Current lease 'deals' on a 528i are approx $3200 down & $399/mo. for 36 months......sounds fair........BUT.........they're actually $40+K cars which either means these leases represent the true value......aka approximately $30K car........or they're worth so much long-term that the $40K+ pricetag represents the true value)

 

[996GT2]

I think Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus offer better deals for the money. Their cars are usually priced lower than similar BMWs and Mercs, yet often offer features that the latter don't have. For example, if you go to the BMW comparison page and compare a 3-Series with an ES/IS/TL/G, you'll find that many things that are optional on the BMW (e.g. power seats) are standard equipment on the Japanese cars...not to mention that the ES/TL/G35 are all considerably more powerful than the BMW 328i which is priced similarly. Also, the Japanese makes (Acura and Lexus especially) have excellent reputations for reliability compared to BMW and Merc's middling reliability (at best), so that's another possible detractor from one of the German cars.

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Acura or Infiniti, by miles over the rest.

 

[mwmorph]

First off I'm a Toyota fan so i'll add that disclaimer right now.

Anyways I really think Lexus offers the best value for the money.

Firstly, most Lexuses are independent platforms, not gussied up Toyotas. Lexus ES350 and the LX share platforms with Toyota Landcruisers and Camrys but otherwise, they're all independent cars that aim for the euro brands and usually do very well.

Acura on the other hand is basically a nicer Accord or Euro Accord or what have you and the same with Infiniti. Lots of platform sharing. Also, much more use of FWD in Acura and Infiniti which is not exactly what Luxury vehicles are perceived to be. In essesce, you can get most of what the Acura TL is in a Honda Accord V6 manual. You can get most of the MDX and RDX in the respective Pilot and CRV, you can get most of the G35 in a 350z and Fx in a Murano and QX in a Armada. The only big changes in Acura are engines and Infiniti is, well a nicer interir and maybe a engine. Of course there are exceptions like the RL and M but that's it. With Lexus, if you want a IS, SC, LS, GS or RX, theres no Toyota replacement.

Also if you look at Lexus, you get the most reliability for the money while also getting specialized production lines for the custom platform models. For example, on the Lexus LS460, 460L and 600h, the cars are produced at the factory with that statistically produces the cars with the least problems per 100 vehicles. The factory guys hand buff the steering wheel 3 times and during off days, have specialized training tasks like differentiating nail polish containers to train their eye for subtle color differences and closing their eyes to guess exactly how many nuts and bolts are in their hand without looking.

It's attention to detail like that which is found in very few cars besides say, AMG, M// Division, Porsche, the Phaeton, Maybach, Ferrari and etc(aka, the Who's who of luxury models) After all, "The devil's in the details" and when you look at a lot of BMW's with the huge panel gaps and then look at an ordinary Camry(I have a 2002) in which you cant even slip a piece of paper in between the bumper and fender, you start to wonder...

 

[bigdog1218]

These aren't computer parts, who gives a shit about value. Value and luxury don't belong in the same sentence. You want value, buy a 4 banger civic and drive it for 200,000 miles. You want luxury you buy from Germany.

And the recent fit and finish on Toyota's has been horrible as noted in many car magazines. Just do a search on Google, it's hilarious how people still defend the Camry when it looks like this, You can't fit paper through here because they overlap too much.

Hey morph guess which car last year had statistically the lowest problems per 100 vehicles? It wasn't from Japan. It was the Audi A8. That's value. Best interior, great power, handling, safety, and the most reliable car you can buy. Sit in an Audi and you'll see attention to detail.

 

[rootaxs]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Firstly, most Lexuses are independent platforms, not gussied up Toyotas. Lexus ES350 and the LX share platforms with Toyota Landcruisers and Camrys but otherwise, they're all independent cars that aim for the euro brands and usually do very well.

They're not independent if they have shared mechanical platforms.

You can get most of the MDX and RDX in the respective Pilot and CRV,

The new MDX and the current Pilot no longer shares platforms, ditto on the RDX and CRV. The way Acura is moving to an all-AWD line-up, that may no longer be the case.

Fx in a Murano

FX is RWD, Murano is FWD. They may have similar dimensions but that's it.

The only big changes in Acura are engines and Infiniti is, well a nicer interir and maybe a engine. Of course there are exceptions like the RL and M but that's it. With Lexus, if you want a IS, SC, LS, GS or RX, theres no Toyota replacement.

RX (Toyota Harrier) = Highlander = Camry platform.

The GS was also known as the Toyota Aristo for a while. In earlier generations it shared platforms with the Toyota Crown.

SC = Toyota Soarer. LS = Toyota Celsior. IS = Toyota Altezza.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: bigdog1218
These aren't computer parts, who gives a shit about value. Value and luxury don't belong in the same sentence. You want value, buy a 4 banger civic and drive it for 200,000 miles. You want luxury you buy from Germany.

And the recent fit and finish on Toyota's has been horrible as noted in many car magazines. Just do a search on Google, it's hilarious how people still defend the Camry when it looks like this, You can't fit paper through here because they overlap too much.

Hey morph guess which car last year had statistically the lowest problems per 100 vehicles? It wasn't from Japan. It was the Audi A8. That's value. Best interior, great power, handling, safety, and the most reliable car you can buy. Sit in an Audi and you'll see attention to detail.

Or it's hilarious how you have to trash Toyota any chance you can get. I really like how people put the Camry on a pedestal. Everyone praises the Hyundai build quality now... until you actually look at it.

Hyundai reps told us they?d been gone through with a fine-toothed comb, so they should be up to snuff. Aside from that questionable folding rear seat, we noticed minor misalignments in the trunk lid and hood, headlights and taillights that didn?t sit equally flush on the right and left sides, and a larger gap on the right side of the dash versus the left. None of these were alarming,

http://www.autoweb.com/content...t/4/article_id_int/871

More problems, but now it's not a problem...?

And stop with the German BS. BMWs are one of the most PISS poor built cars on the planet. Considering the price of the Z4, it is inexcusable to have NEW cars on the lot have hood misalignments (personal experience).

In fact I'll call you out right now. Show me a link where the A8 is rated well in reliability, not initial build quality. The Audi/VW Auto group cars are one of the worst cars for reliability, period.

2007 Jdpower Vehicle Dependability Results
Lexus, top ranking every category.
Audi A8? LOWEST RANKING EVERY SINGLE Category
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/r...ings/large-premium-car

Still, US brands account for almost half the models ? 20 of 44 ? on CR's list of "Least Reliable" models:...
...
European makes account for 17 of those models: 6 each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi.

http://www.marketingvox.com/ar...ips-as-fords-improves/

Anyone that knows cars knows Audi reliability is as trashy as you can get., but no, you're right. That's value. Something with a engine FAR forward of the front axles(not a single RWD platform aside from the R8), class trailing weight distribution in EVERY car, overpriced, worst reliability in the class, and interiors like a coffin. Yep, when I look for a great car, I look for all those selling points, in fact I insist on it when talking to a salesman.

In fact I believe euro fanboys perceive the excitement that your radio might finally work today or maybe the tranny will stop working halfway to work as "soul" and "personality" and cars that just work like they should as "boring". To me that seems a little S&M to me, but hey whatever floats your boat.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: rootaxs

The only big changes in Acura are engines and Infiniti is, well a nicer interir and maybe a engine. Of course there are exceptions like the RL and M but that's it. With Lexus, if you want a IS, SC, LS, GS or RX, theres no Toyota replacement.

RX (Toyota Harrier) = Highlander = Camry platform.

The GS was also known as the Toyota Aristo for a while. In earlier generations it shared platforms with the Toyota Crown.

SC = Toyota Soarer. LS = Toyota Celsior. IS = Toyota Altezza.

I stand corrected on the japanese crossovers.

1 they are independant still because Lexus does not share platforms with toyota. What I mean by overlap is obviously in my perspective in NA. You cant get any of those cars in NA which means that in NA, it means extra value because the Celsior is JDM and RHD.

Also, if you look at Toyota Japan's models, none of thsoe exist anymore, because Lexus has been differentiating itself from Toyota platform sharing.

 

[rootaxs]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Also, if you look at Toyota Japan's models, none of thsoe exist anymore, because Lexus has been differentiating itself from Toyota platform sharing.

True. I think they've done a pretty good job at starting to segregate the models and have shown leadership in that segment. Infiniti and Acura definitely needs to catch up.

In a way, this move is a catch-22. It's good for some since buyers can finally put their fingers on what's what and why it's worth paying more for one over the other, on the other hand, to the value conscious they can no longer go by the "It's just a x in y clothing" idea.

 

[Engineer]

After looking at the choices, it seems to me that Infiniti has quite a bit for the money. I love the Lexus ES350 but have been bothered by various issues with the last two years models (that also carry over to the V6 Camry platform).

If the Infiniti G35 didn't have such a chopped trunk/rear end, I would have been all over one.

 

[theslickvik]

Lexus hands down. Most reliable car according to JD Powers and it holds its value very well. The standard lexus models are filled with most of the bells and whistles other manufacturers would have you buy optionally.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: theslickvik
Lexus hands down. Most reliable car according to JD Powers and it holds its value very well. The standard lexus models are filled with most of the bells and whistles other manufacturers would have you buy optionally.

While JD powers may have them at the top (with Buick), the latest Consumer Reports drops the ES and the GS from the recommended list citing many problems including many rattles and transmission problems (especially on the V6 ES350 - shared with the Camry). Toyota should take notice of these issues (even though they have been known for some time) and correct them immediately to avoid further damaging it's reputation. The big 3 failed to do this and it's haunted them for years (if not decades).

 

[sniperruff]

i'd say lexus because of their reliability reputation as well as insane resale value.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
Anyone that knows cars knows Audi reliability is as trashy as you can get., but no, you're right. That's value. Something with a engine FAR forward of the front axles(not a single RWD platform aside from the R8), class trailing weight distribution in EVERY car, overpriced, worst reliability in the class, and interiors like a coffin. Yep, when I look for a great car, I look for all those selling points, in fact I insist on it when talking to a salesman.

In fact I believe euro fanboys perceive the excitement that your radio might finally work today or maybe the tranny will stop working halfway to work as "soul" and "personality" and cars that just work like they should as "boring". To me that seems a little S&M to me, but hey whatever floats your boat.

audi sets the standard for interior design. reliability - yeah, for german cars if you let them go they will blow on you. my brother has a 2002 A4 and has had almost 0 problems, despite the fact that he's done craploads of modding.

and what exactly does lexus have that can compare to BMW's M or audi's S/RS series?

the M3 and RS4 are the *top* sport sedans, and their base models are well respected as luxury sports cars.

 

[woodie1]

"Most car for the money??"

I think it is a given that BMW and M-B are more expensive when comparablely equipped. At one time I would've said Lexus but the last time I was in their showroom I couldn't believe the MSRPs and the dealer didn't care to negotiate. Might be reliable but not the most car for the money. That leaves Acura and Infiniti in a tie for my vote.

 

[fstime]

What about Audi?

 

[ultimatebob]

Originally posted by: BouZouki
What about Audi?

Audi's come with more standard features than a BMW does, but still fall behind most Japanese cars in "bang for the buck"

 

[redgtxdi]

Since I saw the audi comments, I was already thinking along those lines.

For argument's sake..............Audi now included in poll!!



P.S. Without letting the list get out of hand.........do Saab, Volvo have a place here??

 

[Tommouse]

I love Audi, but I didn't vote for them, or anyone in the poll because bang for the buck isn't my first criteria when searching for a luxury car. Sure I'm not looking to get ripped off or throw money away, but there are different ways of evaluating how much you get out of any certain car. Do you want millions of gadgets? Reliability? Driving dynamics? Safety? Prestige? Or a bit of a hodge podge of them all? So to get the most physical car with the most "in" it, being tech/gadgets I would vote for one of the Japanese makes, yet I would never buy one. Different strokes for different folks :beer:

 

[thomsbrain]

depends on what kind of bang you are looking for. because if driving pleasure is anywhere on that list, you won't find it at any price in most models by lexus. yet if it's not, you'd probably find the LS to be a better value than an S-class, A8, or 7-series.

 

[redgtxdi]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
depends on what kind of bang you are looking for. because if driving pleasure is anywhere on that list, you won't find it at any price in most models by lexus. yet if it's not, you'd probably find the LS to be a better value than an S-class, A8, or 7-series.

Well, I'd venture to say that the IS350 (while not an M3) is probably gonna rate pretty high up on the "driving pleasure" scale. So, I tend to shy away from making absolutes out of any one brand.

 

[thomsbrain]

Originally posted by: redgtxdi

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
depends on what kind of bang you are looking for. because if driving pleasure is anywhere on that list, you won't find it at any price in most models by lexus. yet if it's not, you'd probably find the LS to be a better value than an S-class, A8, or 7-series.

Well, I'd venture to say that the IS350 (while not an M3) is probably gonna rate pretty high up on the "driving pleasure" scale. So, I tend to shy away from making absolutes out of any one brand.

hence the phrase, "most models by lexus."

 

[Capt Caveman]

Out of the list, I would say Acura but I don't really consider them luxury.

From the luxury group, I would have to pick Infiniti.

 

[senseamp]

Infiniti by far. Acuras are really just pimped out Hondas with flashier designs and tuned engines.
Lexus is nice, but it's more expensive, plus generally smaller than similar class Infiniti. G35 is sized between Lexus IS and GS, but costs less than IS. If you are a big guy, it matters. You don't have to spend more to get a roomier car.
Plus Infiniti has awesome platforms and awesome designs. Lexus is pretty much boring as hell. Leave it to Lexus to make a V8 RWD roadster (SC) the most boring car in their lineup

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Since I saw the audi comments, I was already thinking along those lines.

For argument's sake..............Audi now included in poll!!



P.S. Without letting the list get out of hand.........do Saab, Volvo have a place here??

I don't know about either vehicle as far as quality or reliability, but I do (and I don't know exactly why) like the Volvo S80. I think it has a really nice interior and the exterior has grown on me. It does seem to have quite a bit of value for the money (starting in the $38,000 ish range and I get a supplier discount - at least until they are sold! )