Valve finally did it

[Hadsus]

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: Hadsus

Originally posted by: mb


Say in a year from now, if/when all achievements for all classes are out. Someone who has unlocked all of the weapons will have no superior advantage over someone that has 0 achievements (other than not being a noob, but the game is easy to learn).

Each weapon upgrade has it's pluses and minuses that in no way affect the balance of the game. You won't get pwned simply because you don't have them. If you want to get them, no grinding is required. Just play the game and you can unlock all the weapons.

Ha! You gotta be kidding. The extra health and the crits from behind from the backburner alone is a huge advantage for the pyro. I've unlocked it all for that class and I played it quite a bit before and after. If you don't have anything unlocked after a year of all classes being upgraded you are gonna be worse off, there is no doubt about it.

You've gotta be kidding. Or you can't read. All new weapons create advantages (extra HP + crits from behind, as you say), but they ALSO create disadvantages. Thus, the overall balance is the same.

I have all the medic and pyro weapons. As a pyro, I am able to dominate just as easily with the standard set as I can with the upgraded set.

You're a fool if you think the new weapons are 100% better than the standard ones. I can go through them one by one if you want. Here's a few examples: the flame thrower and the upgraded back burner. Sure you get extra health and crits from behind, but you lose the compression blast and (I may be wrong on this) but it seems like the backburner has a shorter range. The compression blast on the standard flame thrower is VERY useful. If they did not add the compression blast, I would agree that the backburner is superior, but that's not how things are. I was playing 1 on 1, both of us being pyros, and the other guy had his flare gun and backburner equipped, while I had my flamethrower and shotgun equipped. I kicked his ass and blocked him from getting any caps with the compression blast.

The pyro's shotgun and upgraded flare gun. Take away the shotgun and the pyro is useless at medium distances from most classes. Hitting anything other than a heavy who is spinning his cannon isn't that easy, and it doesn't do all that much damage. Sure I've lucked out and shot people with it while they are on the run, but it's much easier to take people out with the shotgun when they are out of the flamethrowers reach. You can't always ambush people.

The medic's Critzcrieg. 100% crits, 0% invulnerability. Do I need to explain that anymore for you?

You're not gonna use the backburner in order just to use the compression blaster on the standard weapon? Maybe you should visit a pyro discussion forum to see how overwhelming the opinion is that the the class is now overpowered. A backburner from behind is death and no one is gonna choose the ordinary burner over the upgraded one.....it's an upgraded weapon, get it? The flair is meh (I'm think the shotgun is more versatile), the axe can be very useful under certain circumstances. You have an argument only with the shotgun....the other two weapons are definite upgrades despite it's small disadvantages.

 

[Fenixgoon]

Originally posted by: Hadsus

You're not gonna use the backburner in order just to use the compression blaster on the standard weapon? Maybe you should visit a pyro discussion forum to see how overwhelming the opinion is that the the class is now overpowered. A backburner from behind is death and no one is gonna choose the ordinary burner over the upgraded one.....it's an upgraded weapon, get it? The flair is meh (I'm think the shotgun is more versatile), the axe can be very useful under certain circumstances. You have an argument only with the shotgun....the other two weapons are definite upgrades despite it's small disadvantages.

except you're still vulnerable to demos and soldiers. and the usual heavy.

rockets work great against pyros without compression blast, x2 for stickies.

 

[coreyb]

to the guy complaining about unlockable acheivements.

there ARE programs out there that will do it for you without any of the hassle. just a little fyi.

 

[Born2bwire]

Originally posted by: Hadsus

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: Hadsus

Originally posted by: mb


Say in a year from now, if/when all achievements for all classes are out. Someone who has unlocked all of the weapons will have no superior advantage over someone that has 0 achievements (other than not being a noob, but the game is easy to learn).

Each weapon upgrade has it's pluses and minuses that in no way affect the balance of the game. You won't get pwned simply because you don't have them. If you want to get them, no grinding is required. Just play the game and you can unlock all the weapons.

Ha! You gotta be kidding. The extra health and the crits from behind from the backburner alone is a huge advantage for the pyro. I've unlocked it all for that class and I played it quite a bit before and after. If you don't have anything unlocked after a year of all classes being upgraded you are gonna be worse off, there is no doubt about it.

You've gotta be kidding. Or you can't read. All new weapons create advantages (extra HP + crits from behind, as you say), but they ALSO create disadvantages. Thus, the overall balance is the same.

I have all the medic and pyro weapons. As a pyro, I am able to dominate just as easily with the standard set as I can with the upgraded set.

You're a fool if you think the new weapons are 100% better than the standard ones. I can go through them one by one if you want. Here's a few examples: the flame thrower and the upgraded back burner. Sure you get extra health and crits from behind, but you lose the compression blast and (I may be wrong on this) but it seems like the backburner has a shorter range. The compression blast on the standard flame thrower is VERY useful. If they did not add the compression blast, I would agree that the backburner is superior, but that's not how things are. I was playing 1 on 1, both of us being pyros, and the other guy had his flare gun and backburner equipped, while I had my flamethrower and shotgun equipped. I kicked his ass and blocked him from getting any caps with the compression blast.

The pyro's shotgun and upgraded flare gun. Take away the shotgun and the pyro is useless at medium distances from most classes. Hitting anything other than a heavy who is spinning his cannon isn't that easy, and it doesn't do all that much damage. Sure I've lucked out and shot people with it while they are on the run, but it's much easier to take people out with the shotgun when they are out of the flamethrowers reach. You can't always ambush people.

The medic's Critzcrieg. 100% crits, 0% invulnerability. Do I need to explain that anymore for you?

You're not gonna use the backburner in order just to use the compression blaster on the standard weapon? Maybe you should visit a pyro discussion forum to see how overwhelming the opinion is that the the class is now overpowered. A backburner from behind is death and no one is gonna choose the ordinary burner over the upgraded one.....it's an upgraded weapon, get it? The flair is meh (I'm think the shotgun is more versatile), the axe can be very useful under certain circumstances. You have an argument only with the shotgun....the other two weapons are definite upgrades despite it's small disadvantages.

There was some talk that the developers did not like the fact that the pyro had a low learning curve. I think that the compression blast addresses this and is going to be the thing that ultimately separates the average pryo from the best. There's a lot potential for it. I've already found that it is very effective in getting enemies off of a cap (like in gravel pit or badlands) or deflecting rocket/double jumps (like in 2fort). You can use it to clear away stickies, repel rockets and grenades back towards the enemy in addition to being able to clear any pyros that are trying to get in close to use their flamethrower. The backburner helps give Joe Schmo a needed edge with the pyro. A single rocket blast will kill a full health pyro so even getting a total drop on a soldier or heavy is no guarantee of a kill. I don't think they need to change the weapons at all, they seem to address some of the issues and shortcomings that pyros had without going too far.

 

[Pia]

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: Pia
My friends are telling me to get TF2, but I don't like the direction it is taking. Not class composition on a random server at a random time, mind you. I just don't like grinds and unlocks of anything but cosmetic variety. Don't see the point int them. It was fun unlocking gear in Virtua Fighter. It was utterly unfun needing to play single player mode in some Soul Calibur installment, with characters I don't enjoy playing, only to gain access to the characters I played in the previous installment and to start playing the real game.

There is such an abundance of ignorance on this topic.

Say in a year from now, if/when all achievements for all classes are out. Someone who has unlocked all of the weapons will have no superior advantage over someone that has 0 achievements (other than not being a noob, but the game is easy to learn).

Each weapon upgrade has it's pluses and minuses that in no way affect the balance of the game. You won't get pwned simply because you don't have them. If you want to get them, no grinding is required. Just play the game and you can unlock all the weapons.

Would you be okay with it if the game got a new full class, roughly balanced against the others, equipped with fun new mechanics - let's call him the Ninja Pirate - and to play him, you'd have to complete all achievements for all other classes? If not, why?

In Virtua Fighter, I can unwrap the game, pick any class I want and do my best to win the match, which is the core of the game. Even if my friend has been messing with his copy of VF for weeks, and joins my game with a character dressed up in cool "achievement" items you are rewarded with upon solving metagame challenges, we have absolutely same everything to beat each other with, and the match is fair.

In TF2, I can't pick the Axtinguisher-Flaregun-Pyro class without playing another class (Fireaxe-Shotgun-Pyro) first. I can't even know how good or bad it is before trying it, so if I'm playing to win, I basically have to grind all those unlocks. How is this supposed to be a positive feature in the game?

Achievements: great fun as an optional challenge, exploration or distraction, but a turd of a game design when dropped in a competetive MP game as a hoop to jump through before you can play the game in its entirety.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Pia

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: Pia
My friends are telling me to get TF2, but I don't like the direction it is taking. Not class composition on a random server at a random time, mind you. I just don't like grinds and unlocks of anything but cosmetic variety. Don't see the point int them. It was fun unlocking gear in Virtua Fighter. It was utterly unfun needing to play single player mode in some Soul Calibur installment, with characters I don't enjoy playing, only to gain access to the characters I played in the previous installment and to start playing the real game.

There is such an abundance of ignorance on this topic.

Say in a year from now, if/when all achievements for all classes are out. Someone who has unlocked all of the weapons will have no superior advantage over someone that has 0 achievements (other than not being a noob, but the game is easy to learn).

Each weapon upgrade has it's pluses and minuses that in no way affect the balance of the game. You won't get pwned simply because you don't have them. If you want to get them, no grinding is required. Just play the game and you can unlock all the weapons.

Would you be okay with it if the game got a new full class, roughly balanced against the others, equipped with fun new mechanics - let's call him the Ninja Pirate - and to play him, you'd have to complete all achievements for all other classes? If not, why?

In Virtua Fighter, I can unwrap the game, pick any class I want and do my best to win the match, which is the core of the game. Even if my friend has been messing with his copy of VF for weeks, and joins my game with a character dressed up in cool "achievement" items you are rewarded with upon solving metagame challenges, we have absolutely same everything to beat each other with, and the match is fair.

In TF2, I can't pick the Axtinguisher-Flaregun-Pyro class without playing another class (Fireaxe-Shotgun-Pyro) first. I can't even know how good or bad it is before trying it, so if I'm playing to win, I basically have to grind all those unlocks. How is this supposed to be a positive feature in the game?

Achievements: great fun as an optional challenge, exploration or distraction, but a turd of a game design when dropped in a competetive MP game as a hoop to jump through before you can play the game in its entirety.

Okay, how about people who pay this game a lot? I mean hundreds and hundreds of hours into it. Do you think it might be nice for them to be offered a little more diversity to the gameplay? Do you think it might keep them excited and into the game so they keep playing? Do you think that would be a good thing?

As has been stated, the new weapons are cool, but they are NOT upgrades over standard weapons. And, again, as had been stated, it doesn't take long of normal gameplay to earn them. Probably around about the time you understand what the class is about you'll be getting some extras to play with. They will not be what determines how well you do in the game, so no crying encessary for noobie players.

 

[SniperDaws]

Originally posted by: adairusmc

Originally posted by: mb

Originally posted by: Mursilis

Originally posted by: mb
Cry more.

No, he's right - there's just too much achievement-whoring now, instead of people actually playing the game. Annoying as heck.

Hop on board.

+1

What is even worse is the COD4 people complaining about my use of Martyrdom and 3x frags. Their whining about it is the main reason I still play with that kit.

Is Cod4 any good, i need a multiplay game since shelving BF2, im playing Frontlines Fuel of War but its not great.

 

[Pia]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Okay, how about people who pay this game a lot? I mean hundreds and hundreds of hours into it. Do you think it might be nice for them to be offered a little more diversity to the gameplay? Do you think it might keep them excited and into the game so they keep playing? Do you think that would be a good thing?

If the new additions are good, positive ones that make the game better, of course I want them to be in the game.

It's just that for some reason, you don't want everyone else to have them too. That's where we disagree.

Rather than jumping through hoops to get in the full game, I want to play it straight away and decide for myself when I'm not interested enough to play anymore. It's the same thing in e.g. a single player FPS - I don't want bland filler levels in the middle to stretch out the content to a given amount of hours. I want to play as much *good* content as they can give me, and no more. If lack of grind/xp based artificial "progress" in a competetive game like this would cause me to play it for a shorter time, I consider that time saved, a positive thing. I have experienced as much of the game as I like, and go on to play something else.

And like I said, achievements can still exist just fine without them being gameplay-altering. I have enjoyed doing Virtua Fighter training exercises to unlock some graphical trinket for the character to wear. I have enjoyed questing and grinding - even extensively - in WoW to score some weird noncombat pet or decorative festival gear. The important thing is that they are separate from the main game, so I can take or leave them.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Pia

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Okay, how about people who pay this game a lot? I mean hundreds and hundreds of hours into it. Do you think it might be nice for them to be offered a little more diversity to the gameplay? Do you think it might keep them excited and into the game so they keep playing? Do you think that would be a good thing?

If the new additions are good, positive ones that make the game better, of course I want them to be in the game.

It's just that for some reason, you don't want everyone else to have them too. That's where we disagree.

Rather than jumping through hoops to get in the full game, I want to play it straight away and decide for myself when I'm not interested enough to play anymore. It's the same thing in e.g. a single player FPS - I don't want bland filler levels in the middle to stretch out the content to a given amount of hours. I want to play as much *good* content as they can give me, and no more. If lack of grind/xp based artificial "progress" in a competetive game like this would cause me to play it for a shorter time, I consider that time saved, a positive thing. I have experienced as much of the game as I like, and go on to play something else.

And like I said, achievements can still exist just fine without them being gameplay-altering. I have enjoyed doing Virtua Fighter training exercises to unlock some graphical trinket for the character to wear. I have enjoyed questing and grinding - even extensively - in WoW to score some weird noncombat pet or decorative festival gear. The important thing is that they are separate from the main game, so I can take or leave them.

You would have a point if 1) the unlockables made the class play different or gave you an advantage or 2) the unlockables weren't super easy to get. Neither is true, though.

Again, there's no reason you can't get the game and play straight away. You don't grasp what these weapons are if you think they are requisite. None of them are upgrades, they just offer more options......options which you wouldn't even begin to miss until you put 9 or 10 hours into the class by which time you'd have most of them unlocked.

 

[slugg]

^^ so... the unlockables give you options on how to play the class, but the unlockables don't make the class play any different?

The unlockables definitely CHANGE your advantages/disadvantages, thus making the class play differently.

Do you have an emotional bond to TF2? Every time I see anyone saying anything even remotely against TF2, you're always there defending it...

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: slugg
^^ so... the unlockables give you options on how to play the class, but the unlockables don't make the class play any different?

Correct. Can't wrap yur head around that? I'm not surprised.

The unlockables definitely CHANGE your advantages/disadvantages, thus making the class play differently.

Incorrect. You'd know that if you actually played.

Do you have an emotional bond to TF2? Every time I see anyone saying anything even remotely against TF2, you're always there defending it...

Nope. I'm also not somebody who got their ass handed to them the first few times they logged on.....sobbed quietly in the corner for the next three hours......logged onto an Internet forum and declared the game broken because I couldn't pwn at it with TFC tactics.

 

[slugg]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Correct. Can't wrap yur head around that? I'm not surprised.

Yes, take stabs at my intelligence... That makes sense.

Incorrect. You'd know that if you actually played.

But uhh, your character gets different abilities with the unlockables, therefore changing the way you use your class. That's umm... pretty simple to follow? The Kritzkrieg is a pretty obvious example. You can't ubercharge if you have kritzkrieg, so that changes how you advance upon the enemy. Oh and if you're a pyro with the backburner, that changes the way you try to attack your enemy - you're more inclined to try to get behind them AND you have more HP than a soldier. These are just 2 specific examples, but my point is not limited to these 2 examples.

Nope. I'm also not somebody who got their ass handed to them the first few times they logged on.....sobbed quietly in the corner for the next three hours......logged onto an Internet forum and declared the game broken because I couldn't pwn at it with TFC tactics.

Hmm so I suck at TF2 because I'm awesome at TFC? Yea, that makes sense. I didn't even know that I played TF2 with TFC tactics? Cuz uhh, I don't. Oh well, since you seem to know me SOOO well, I guess you're right. And apparently I'm stupid, according to you.

The fact that you religiously defend TF2 is amusing. I'm gonna go ahead and call you out as a TF2 fanboy.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: slugg
But uhh, your character gets different abilities with the unlockables, therefore changing the way you use your class. That's umm... pretty simple to follow?

Apparently not. The weapons don't change the way the class plays at all, they just offer different ways of doing the same thing. Frankly, it's practically arbitrary.

BTW, I played for two and a half hours tonight as pyro and unlocked both the backburner and flare gun and I was just playing. Don't even know which achievements I got because I wasn't trying. If you find that too daunting a task, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you should try playing the game before you start whining about it.

 

[Czar]

Been playing with both the backburner and flaregun as well, and I must say that neither is any more powerful than the standard kit. It just changes things a little bit, your tactics change a little bit, but its just not more powerful and does not touch the game balance.

 

[gorobei]

The backburner is a major change, it make the pyro dangerous rather than an annoyance. On dustbowl and gravelpit and a few other maps there are a couple of opportunities to slip behind enemy lines and come up behind the blue attackers. Before the backburner you were lucky if you killed maybe one person and lit everyone else on fire before a soldier or demo blew you up with one shot. Good luck even trying to do enough damage to get a heavy even close to the red zone in health. Now you can get 3-6 kills in less than 2 seconds on a group who isn't watching their 6 o'clock. The standard flamethrower just didn't do enough damage to kill more than one person which didn't justify making an aggressive push into enemy territory. Now you take the risk and reap the reward or the penalty. It just forces good teams to setup defensive sentries even when on blue. And anyone foolish enough to attempt frontal assaults with the backburner will die just as quickly as someone using the standard flamethrower.

The flare gun isn't for combat as much as it is for breaking defenses and forcing attackers to break off spamming a sentry. The shotgun will always be better for taking out scouts who stay out of flame range, but for those who don't do solo open field engagements and are attacking a cp the flare is a useful tool rather than a weapon.

The axetinguisher is only good if you work in pyro groups that can keep the enemy on fire. Anyone who moves faster than the pyro can evade long enough on open ground for the fire to go out and the axe to go to 50% damage.



My big question is:
The new weapons for the medic and pyro either alter gameplay sideways or makeup for previous weakness. So far they only change damage/rates/hp/recharging of meters(things with modable numbers), and don't affect player speed/spread angle/turn rate/field of view. WHAT else is there to tweak for the other attack classes that won't fundamentally change their basic play/gamecode yet makeup for a weakness? There isn't that much to change on most of these classes.

-are Soldiers going to get faster rockets that can actually hit a scout? More shots with less damage?
-Demos are pretty well balanced now, any changes would make them overpowered. And if you give him an enhanced bottle, what the heck is it going to do differently?
-the Heavy's only real enemy are Spies and Snipers. Give him a mini-gun that is accurate at long range but only has 1/4 the ammo?
-the only thing that holds off a Scout is a sentry, otherwise a good scout can avoid any fire. Give him the ability to take sentries out without reducing his speed and nothing will stop a scout.

Engy, Sniper, and Spy: sure, plenty to mess with there for the niche classes. But absorbing health from enemies only makes sense for the medic. Do that with other classes' weapons and it gets weird.

 

[imported_Imp]

After a week, I have to say backburner is overpowered. There are no longer 5/6 pyros on a team anymore. Now there are only 3 or so, with most of them at the top of the scoreboard. I had rarely seen pyros leading teams before. Also, a medic + pyro with backburner has become harder to deal with than a medic + heavy. This is probably cause the pyro is so much faster, it's weapon is worse in that your view gets screwed, and you keep taking damage even after ducking away.

Also, I think pyros are getting too many criticals. This probably has something to do with the messed up hit detection. How many times have you been "face-backstabbed" by a spy? I know I've been a lot. Chances are, this is occurring with the backburner too. So now you have a class with one of the highest speeds, most damaging weapons, and second most health points. Instead of adding 50 hp, maybe they should think about taking away 25 hp.

Playing engy now is becoming a major nuisance. I know it was always possible for a pyro to easily take out a level 1 sentry by strafing faster than the gun. Now it seems like they can dodge a level 2 easily. That extra 50 health has even allowed them to get right up to a few of my level 3s and wear it down enough for someone following close to finish it off.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: Imp
After a week, I have to say backburner is overpowered. There are no longer 5/6 pyros on a team anymore. Now there are only 3 or so, with most of them at the top of the scoreboard. I had rarely seen pyros leading teams before. Also, a medic + pyro with backburner has become harder to deal with than a medic + heavy. This is probably cause the pyro is so much faster, it's weapon is worse in that your view gets screwed, and you keep taking damage even after ducking away.

Also, I think pyros are getting too many criticals. This probably has something to do with the messed up hit detection. How many times have you been "face-backstabbed" by a spy? I know I've been a lot. Chances are, this is occurring with the backburner too. So now you have a class with one of the highest speeds, most damaging weapons, and second most health points. Instead of adding 50 hp, maybe they should think about taking away 25 hp.

Playing engy now is becoming a major nuisance. I know it was always possible for a pyro to easily take out a level 1 sentry by strafing faster than the gun. Now it seems like they can dodge a level 2 easily. That extra 50 health has even allowed them to get right up to a few of my level 3s and wear it down enough for someone following close to finish it off.

It's not a case of the backburner though. Valve gave the Pyro an overall boost, not just with the unlockables. Their standard flamethrower also got an enormous boost with the compression blast. They just felt the class was a little too weak overall. You'll notice the medic didn't get upgradfes to their standard weapons in their upgrade because Valve felt they were fine.

As to whether the backburner is overpowered I think is still up in the air. During my 2 1/2 hours kast night in earning the unlockables and for a while after, I managed a 1:1 KD ratio. I was going for the unlockables and it seemed a lot of others were as well, so we had half our team pyros and we were losing most maps. A few times, I switched classes to take care of some easy enemies that were pwning ass because we were mostly pyros.

Very few people played the pyro before. Once the next few classes get their unlockables, it should settle down. As it is, they're nothing to worry about if you have a halfway decent team or are willing to switch yourself to a countering class like engie or heavy.

 

[coreyb]

Whenever I start getting owned by a couple pyros in a server I class change. Go soldier and notice how easy to is to kill this class. They are not overpowered at all. They are almost completely useless when faced with a sentry farm,soldiers and heavys that know they are there.

 

[mikelish]

pyros sometimes take 3 rockets to kill because of their 50 extra hit points.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: mikelish
pyros sometimes take 3 rockets to kill because of their 50 extra hit points.

Honestly, don't you think that's about how it should be? They have to get extremely close to do any damage which means running a gauntlet of spies, snipers and scouts and too often their reward was a quick death to one/two shot splash damage.

As a mostly demo player, I was a little bitchy about it at first because it now takes three stickies, but every time I was taken out by a pyro I was in a risky unsupported position and just couldn't dispatch them as easily as I could before.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'd like to hear the reasoning why they shold be toned down. It's not my favorite class, so if you want to take away normal crits from the backburner or drop the hp increase down 25 points, I wouldn't make a fuss. But, as it is, I'd like to see what happens after the next couple updates come out.

 

[coreyb]

so what if it takes 3 rockets?

I don't have that hard of a time killing pyros so I don't see why they are considered overpowered.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
Honestly, don't you think that's about how it should be? They have to get extremely close to do any damage which means running a gauntlet of spies, snipers and scouts and too often their reward was a quick death to one/two shot splash damage.

As a mostly demo player, I was a little bitchy about it at first because it now takes three stickies, but every time I was taken out by a pyro I was in a risky unsupported position and just couldn't dispatch them as easily as I could before.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'd like to hear the reasoning why they shold be toned down. It's not my favorite class, so if you want to take away normal crits from the backburner or drop the hp increase down 25 points, I wouldn't make a fuss. But, as it is, I'd like to see what happens after the next couple updates come out.

Just because a pyro has to get close doesn't ultimately mean it should have the health to get close by running directly through enemy fire. That is like saying a sniper should get a lot of health because it needs to be far away, so it should be able to survive lots of gunfire while it runs really far away from you so it can snipe you.

There are plenty of ways a pyro can attack without the bonus health. The bonus health has kind of made it odd fighting pyros, especially since it has increased the chance of me shooting myself in the face while trying to kill them.

For the most part, TF2 follows this general understanding (which is present in A LOT of games), the faster you are, the weaker you are. Scouts are fastest, they are weakest, heavies are slowest, they are strongest. But you now have a class, pyro, that is healthier and faster than other classes. Which makes it a bit of an oddity.

There are two main reasons I don't actually complain more about this:
1. Most TF2 players suck. I mean suck a lot. They make casual players look good the way they suck. This means, on average, 75% of the pyros you go up against are going to be borderline retarded anyways, forfeiting any benefit the additional health may have given them.
2. They haven't released soldier or other attack classes achievements yet, so I have to assume the upgraded pyro is balanced against an upgraded soldier that doesn't exist yet.

 

[mb]

Anyone else think that possible soldier/demo weapon upgrades may include rockets/bombs that can't be blown back, but maybe are slower and/or cause less damage?
Something like.. super sticky nades... can't be moved by the compression blast but they either do less damage or you get less of them or no chance of crits etc.
Or a super fast rocket that has to be reloaded after one or two shots (instead of 4).

I can't wait for the next achievements to come out because I've always loved playing pyro and can't wait till everyone plays as something else. I'd love to see heavy achievements next.. bunch of fatties just waiting to get the flame/axtinguisher combo

 

[GundamSonicZeroX]

Originally posted by: mb
bunch of fatties just waiting to get the flame/axtinguisher combo

Hey, I was just trying to get the Flare Gun.

 

[mb]

Originally posted by: Pia
Would you be okay with it if the game got a new full class, roughly balanced against the others, equipped with fun new mechanics - let's call him the Ninja Pirate - and to play him, you'd have to complete all achievements for all other classes? If not, why?

In Virtua Fighter, I can unwrap the game, pick any class I want and do my best to win the match, which is the core of the game. Even if my friend has been messing with his copy of VF for weeks, and joins my game with a character dressed up in cool "achievement" items you are rewarded with upon solving metagame challenges, we have absolutely same everything to beat each other with, and the match is fair.

In TF2, I can't pick the Axtinguisher-Flaregun-Pyro class without playing another class (Fireaxe-Shotgun-Pyro) first. I can't even know how good or bad it is before trying it, so if I'm playing to win, I basically have to grind all those unlocks. How is this supposed to be a positive feature in the game?

Achievements: great fun as an optional challenge, exploration or distraction, but a turd of a game design when dropped in a competetive MP game as a hoop to jump through before you can play the game in its entirety.

I skipped over most of the replies in this thread after my post you quoted. I didn't realize until now you actually replied. And I can't believe you actually replied with the same line of thinking as before. Do some damn research, you look like a fool. Quit acting like you need to unlock the achievements to play the game at the same level as others, because you simply don't. The new weapons don't allow you to play the game "in its entirety" anymore than the standard set do. The "Axtinguisher-Flaregun-Pyro" is NOT a different class from the "Fireaxe-Shotgun-Pyro".
It's especially funny to hear you complain about grinding, seeing as you play WoW, the ultimate grind fest. To get the weapons in TF2 all you have to do is play the game as normal. No "hoops to jump through."