Valve Loves Quad Core

[NoStateofMind]

LINK

Valve finally settled on an approach they dub "hybrid threading." That simply means that the tasks use the appropriate technique as needed. In some cases, whole subsystems may be use a single core?the key example being the game's sound system. Some systems may be split internally, in a blend of fine and coarse techniques. Other tasks, such as large loops or matrix calculations, can be split across multiple cores. Valve believes that their hybrid approach yields good scalability in the foreseeable future, even beyond quad-core processors.

Valve's approach did involve modifying substantial sections of the Source engine. As we noted, multithreading is baked into the engine in a fundamental way. Valve chose not to use existing resources. For example, Windows itself is reasonably smart about threading. However, Windows isn't adept at real-time prioritization of threads. Using Windows APIs for threading involves understanding threading at a very low level, forcing programmers to solve threading problems rather than game problems.

Valve's techniques also involve the use of lock-free algorithms. The goal is to never leave a core idle and take advantage of the strengths of the CPU itself, rather than a black-box library.

In the end, the result is a game engine optimized for solving game problems, but heavily threaded under the hood in appropriate ways.

Users will see benefits in the near future, because of Valve's Steam online distribution system. Half-Life 2: Episode 1 will see frame rate increases when Valve begins streaming the new engine out to users. Half-Life 2: Episode 2 will take full advantage of the new threading model. While no date was forthcoming, Episode 2 is likely to arrive in the first half of 2007.

Looks like Quad Core isn't just for video and audio buffs anymore

 

[apoppin]

will they still fix the lighting in Source or will it be updated to match the other engines capabilities?

 

[Polish3d]

I dont understand why no one can get a fking game out before 2007

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Frackal
I dont understand why no one can get a fking game out before 2007

just be grateful they don't rush a buggy beta game out for the holidays .. .. for US to test.

like NWN2 ...
:thumbsdown:

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: apoppin
will they still fix the lighting in Source or will it be updated to match the other engines capabilities?

You and your lighting, I still don't really see a difference and I was just playing Oblivion the other day...it must be those wolf eyes of yours that can pick up the subtleties

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: apoppin
will they still fix the lighting in Source or will it be updated to match the other engines capabilities?

That's why I bolded part of that link. Seems like it will be easier to fix problems. But it is Valve. The only lighting problem I've seen is when you use your flashlight in DOD:s, it lights up all things except for other players. Put the flashlight on the guy and he's dark with light behind him

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: apoppin
will they still fix the lighting in Source or will it be updated to match the other engines capabilities?

You and your lighting, I still don't really see a difference and I was just playing Oblivion the other day...it must be those wolf eyes of yours that can pick up the subtleties

what "subtleties"?
:Q

the difference between Gamebryo and Source?
:shocked:

ok ....

try this:

1) light up a torch in an Oblivion cave and notice that the torch's light INTERACTS with the lighting from multiple sources .... and the shadows also respond to multiple sources

2) now turn on that dinky "flashlight" in EP1. NO interaction with any other light source and the shadows are awful and unreal. That's WHY the flashlight is so DIM .... so you don't notice it's 'lack' of interaction.

OTOH, the ARTISTS at valve are awesome!

 

[KeithTalent]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: apoppin
will they still fix the lighting in Source or will it be updated to match the other engines capabilities?

You and your lighting, I still don't really see a difference and I was just playing Oblivion the other day...it must be those wolf eyes of yours that can pick up the subtleties

what "subtleties"?
:Q

the difference between Gamebryo and Source?
:shocked:

ok ....

try this:

1) light up a torch in an Oblivion cave and notice that the torch's light INTERACTS with the lighting from multiple sources .... and the shadows also respond to multiple sources

2) now turn on that dinky "flashlight" in EP1. NO interaction with any other light source and the shadows are awful and unreal. That's WHY the flashlight is so DIM .... so you don't notice it's 'lack' of interaction.

OTOH, the ARTISTS at valve are awesome!

I'll give that a shot, though to be honest when I first fired up Oblivion I was looking at the lighting very carefully, since I had been reading a bunch of the stuff you had written in the Software forum about Oblivion vs. HL2 lighting; I don't recall being wowed by it.

Maybe a direct visual comparison on my end will help 'illuminate' the differences

 

[tvdang7]

can they do it for CS:S too. im sure more ppl play it than any other of their games.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: apoppin
will they still fix the lighting in Source or will it be updated to match the other engines capabilities?

You and your lighting, I still don't really see a difference and I was just playing Oblivion the other day...it must be those wolf eyes of yours that can pick up the subtleties

Turn on the flashlight. The lighting is the source engines main weakness IMO. I think its an excellent engine, but that element and particularly how it pertains to shadows, could use some work.

 

[theprodigalrebel]

Another Article

 

[TecHNooB]

Sounds delicious.

 

[lopri]

Umm.. I think this is a typical "Me, too!" approach following Alan Wake and Unreal 3. Hybrid Threading? Sounds like they'll try out SMP coding and.. Well, obviously they're not capable of threading out the whole game so even if 2% of very uninteractive part of the game is patched to utilize multi-core, they still can come out and say "It's called Hybrid Threading."

It's still better than nothing, I guess. I'm just not too fond of such marketing effort from a developer house.

 

[DaveSimmons]

Valve finally settled on an approach they dub "hybrid threading." That simply means that the tasks use the appropriate technique as needed. In some cases, whole subsystems may be use a single core?the key example being the game's sound system. Some systems may be split internally, in a blend of fine and coarse techniques. Other tasks, such as large loops or matrix calculations, can be split across multiple cores. Valve believes that their hybrid approach yields good scalability in the foreseeable future, even beyond quad-core processors.

This is, of course, the same approach that every other development team takes to threading :|

Only Homer Simpson would try to pointlessly write parallelism into low CPU usage tasks or sub-tasks. Parallelism always adds some overhead for management of multiple work threads so it's never as efficient (in total CPU cycles) as running the same code with just one thread.

100% marketing BS.

 

[lopri]

Ultra-threading, Gigathreading, Hybrid Threading,.. I'm loving it!

 

[DaveSimmons]

From now on I shall call my replies mega-posting!

It's a technique where I weave together nouns, pronouns, verbs, adverbs and the occasional adjective. It's much more powerful than the simplistic technique of typing the letters L, O, L or m, e, h and clicking the "reply to topic" button.

My mega-posting! engine is well worth paying $500K per thread topic for a license.

 

[redbox]

Originally posted by: lopri
Ultra-threading, Gigathreading, Hybrid Threading,.. I'm loving it!

I could swear I just saw that on a mcdonalds wraper.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: lopri
Umm.. I think this is a typical "Me, too!" approach following Alan Wake and Unreal 3. Hybrid Threading? Sounds like they'll try out SMP coding and.. Well, obviously they're not capable of threading out the whole game so even if 2% of very uninteractive part of the game is patched to utilize multi-core, they still can come out and say "It's called Hybrid Threading."

It's still better than nothing, I guess. I'm just not too fond of such marketing effort from a developer house.

I think your being a little harsh. But no one really knows til they release the "Hybrid Threading" and use on a QC CPU. At which point, you may be right.

From what I've seen in that other link that was given, it shows a nice improvement. Albeit a "cherry picked" version of a test. As for now, thats all we have to go on.

 

[ronnn]

Maybe they will finally catch up to farcry in non-manufacturing scenes. Valve makes fun games, but their vegetation is pathetic.

 

[Griswold]

Originally posted by: tvdang7
can they do it for CS:S too. im sure more ppl play it than any other of their games.

Thats irrelevant, because more people buy their games for the single player part and then eventually start using the multiplayer parts of it (not including the pirate kiddies who dont pay anything in the first place to get their CS fix). If it wasnt so, we wouldnt see single player games being released/promoted before the multiplayer spinoffs.

 

[TecHNooB]

Originally posted by: Griswold

Originally posted by: tvdang7
can they do it for CS:S too. im sure more ppl play it than any other of their games.

Thats irrelevant, because more people buy their games for the single player part and then eventually start using the multiplayer parts of it (not including the pirate kiddies who dont pay anything in the first place to get their CS fix). If it wasnt so, we wouldnt see single player games being released/promoted before the multiplayer spinoffs.

What the man is trying to say is that you should all pick up a PS3 and a copy of MGS4 when it's released.

 

[zephyrprime]

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons

Valve finally settled on an approach they dub "hybrid threading." That simply means that the tasks use the appropriate technique as needed. In some cases, whole subsystems may be use a single core?the key example being the game's sound system. Some systems may be split internally, in a blend of fine and coarse techniques. Other tasks, such as large loops or matrix calculations, can be split across multiple cores. Valve believes that their hybrid approach yields good scalability in the foreseeable future, even beyond quad-core processors.

This is, of course, the same approach that every other development team takes to threading :|

Only Homer Simpson would try to pointlessly write parallelism into low CPU usage tasks or sub-tasks. Parallelism always adds some overhead for management of multiple work threads so it's never as efficient (in total CPU cycles) as running the same code with just one thread.

100% marketing BS.

I agree. I also like this "Valve's techniques also involve the use of lock-free algorithms." which basically means they avoided all situations where a lock might be involved basically meaning all slighty challenging situations!

Also, "Using Windows APIs for threading involves understanding threading at a very low level, forcing programmers to solve threading problems rather than game problems." Yeah right. I've used win32 for threading before. It ain't *that* tough.

And the following: "External tools, such as the OpenMP tools, tend to focus more on fine threading, highly parallelizable problems, and so have limited utility." Translation: Even OpenMP, which is supposed to make multithreading easier, is too tough for us to use. Make it easier please!

I don't want to belittle the difficulty of making multithreaded code but everything supposed feature this article is proclaiming is actually an admission of a inadequacy.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Still marketing BS?

 

[SunnyD]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Still marketing BS?

Gabe looks like a little man trapped in a fat man's body.

 

[beggerking]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Still marketing BS?

Still mostly marketing BS. hybrid threading is a good idea though, but it would be very tough to implement into the engine.

Particle simulation benchmark showing 2x performance from single to dual core = worthless. real-world performance will NEVER approach that. Its only a small aspect in a game engine that makes up probably < 5% of the total processing power in a game.