Valve says DRM is stupid, but Microsoft still doesn't get it

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Dumac
For all of the people who think they are oh-so-clever so saying "Steam is DRM!", Newell said that himself in the interview. He's basically saying he thinks most forms of DRM (Starforce, SecuROM, etc) are dumb and "broken", while his form of DRM (Steam) actually gives some utility to the customer who is subjugated to it.

Yes, Steam = DRM. That is what Newell basically said. It's not a smart observation, not is it ironic in anyway.

Actually I was going by the title only, as I know Gabe is a bit of a blowhard when it comes to DRM and Piracy. But after actually reading the article, my statement stands, as Steam directly contradicts all the benefits he lists as positives for his form of DRM, Steam.

From the article:

• Newell doesn't have kind words for the use of digital rights managements. except for his own
  
  "As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers the resale value of your game decreases to zero as soon as you enter the CD key in Steam, is that creating value?
  
  through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to)because downloading over the span of hours is easier than installing off DVD in 5 minutes?,
  
  not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't)again, the resale value is zero if you buy off Steam, so the value of the product has clearly decreased
  
  he wrote. "We really really discourage other developers and publishers from using the broken DRM offerings, and in general there is a groundswell to abandon those approaches.Steam is so great, its the only form of DRM and distribution that gives you less, charges you just as much, but somehow makes you think you get more"

The greater irony is that "dumb" forms of DRM that do the same thing as Steam (CD authentication, online activation) is widely criticized even when they're less intrusive and less restrictive in general.

The main reason people criticize online activation/interaction is because eventually (within a few years) the company will most likely shut down the authentication servers for some reason or other.

Steam, however, is too large to simply be shut down at this point. If Valve just decided to stop providing service, they'd have a riot on their hands.

As for resale value, this is only an issue for a few, and easily avoided. If you want to resell your game, now this is where it gets tricky, so bear with me. don't buy games you want to resell from Valve or Steam *gasp* could it really be that simple? :roll:

The above will also solve your issues with download time.

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: Dumac
You're magnifying a lot of insignificant issues and completely ignoring some other issues.

You're right, because to me DRM is an insignificant issue, I was just pointing out the blatant irony and hypocrisy in Newell's musings.

For me, and probably most of the people who buy games of Steam, losing resale value isn't really an issue. I would never sell one of my PC games, nor would I ever buy a used PC game. However, since the rights to games on Steam are tied to your account, in actuality you could just sell you account if you want to sell the games on it.

To some it is an issue, which means one form of DRM might have less negatives than another, but doesn't change the fact its still DRM. Suggesting the sale of an account as a viable alternative to Steam's one user DRM limitation is absurd. You're really think selling an entire library because you want to sell just 1 game is realistic? You think having an account for every title you have to run through Steam is realistic? What happened to service and convenience?

Also, by "making it easy to play my games whenever and wherever I want to", I believe Newell is talking about the ease and ready-to-go attributes of Steam. For example, whenever I switch to a new rig, it's a pain in the ass to reinstall all of my old games by DVD or CD. It takes a ton of menial manual effort, switching CDs and entering CD keys over and over again. It's much easier to just load up steam and let my games download while I go to work/school/life.

Its the same ridiculous anti-DRM argument that was used for Mass Effect, Spore, BioShock, CoH and a few other titles that required online activation or authentication. What if you don't have an internet connection? The difference is with a physical retail copy, you at least can install anywhere, anytime in much less time than downloading via Steam and it won't lock-down all of your bandwidth in the meantime.

As for having to reinstall all your old games or fumble for CD keys, thats really just a matter of organization and using readily available software tools. You can store all your keys digitally and organize your games so that you don't have to re-install them from scratch all the time.

So yes, I believe Steam does add some general utility.

Yet its still DRM with pros and cons, so is it really any better? I don't think so, but then again DRM is a non-issue for me.

 

[Molondo]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Dumac
For all of the people who think they are oh-so-clever so saying "Steam is DRM!", Newell said that himself in the interview. He's basically saying he thinks most forms of DRM (Starforce, SecuROM, etc) are dumb and "broken", while his form of DRM (Steam) actually gives some utility to the customer who is subjugated to it.

Yes, Steam = DRM. That is what Newell basically said. It's not a smart observation, not is it ironic in anyway.

Actually I was going by the title only, as I know Gabe is a bit of a blowhard when it comes to DRM and Piracy. But after actually reading the article, my statement stands, as Steam directly contradicts all the benefits he lists as positives for his form of DRM, Steam.

From the article:

• Newell doesn't have kind words for the use of digital rights managements. except for his own
  
  "As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers the resale value of your game decreases to zero as soon as you enter the CD key in Steam, is that creating value?
  
  through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to)because downloading over the span of hours is easier than installing off DVD in 5 minutes?,
  
  not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't)again, the resale value is zero if you buy off Steam, so the value of the product has clearly decreased
  
  he wrote. "We really really discourage other developers and publishers from using the broken DRM offerings, and in general there is a groundswell to abandon those approaches.Steam is so great, its the only form of DRM and distribution that gives you less, charges you just as much, but somehow makes you think you get more"

The greater irony is that "dumb" forms of DRM that do the same thing as Steam (CD authentication, online activation) is widely criticized even when they're less intrusive and less restrictive in general.

I thought i would add, that you can definetly put all your games on a dvd. It really works great actually, unfortunately it does not save the updates, just the bare bone of the game. But saves you from downloading hours and hours of games.

 

[Smilin]

How does this article show that "Microsoft still doesn't get it". There is only one reference to MS in the whole article which is this:

Microsoft's Games for Windows Community Manager Ryan Miller wrote on his blog. "It is also pretty clear that most DRM is not a problem for the pirates, just for the legitimate consumers. These two factors combine to make a ton of bad feelings on the consumer side."

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: irishScott
The main reason people criticize online activation/interaction is because eventually (within a few years) the company will most likely shut down the authentication servers for some reason or other.

Steam, however, is too large to simply be shut down at this point. If Valve just decided to stop providing service, they'd have a riot on their hands.

As for resale value, this is only an issue for a few, and easily avoided. If you want to resell your game, now this is where it gets tricky, so bear with me. don't buy games you want to resell from Valve or Steam *gasp* could it really be that simple? :roll:

The above will also solve your issues with download time.

You're making a lot of assumptions there as to why people have a problem with online activation, and also in the assumption Valve/Steam is any more immune to financial meltdown than any other publisher. I'm not sure how a threat of a riot would prevent a company from going bankrupt if that were the situation they faced, but whatever makes you sleep better at night.

And I don't buy off Steam even though I don't resell games, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy when someone states DRM is stupid while promoting their own.

Originally posted by: Molondo
I thought i would add, that you can definetly put all your games on a dvd. It really works great actually, unfortunately it does not save the updates, just the bare bone of the game. But saves you from downloading hours and hours of games.

Yes, you can also purchase an extra HDDs and DVDs to backup all your games, but that kinda defeats the purpose and convenience of digital download over retail copy doesn't it? Personally I'd rather have my box, manual and nice silkscreened DVD instead of a non-descript silver DVD with handwritten Sharpie letters.......

 

[Dumac]

Originally posted by: chizow
Yet its still DRM with pros and cons, so is it really any better? I don't think so, but then again DRM is a non-issue for me.

Its understandable for you to see Steam as no better than any other DRM scheme. However, Gabe has a point when he says that DRM should give the consumer some perceived benefit. Although you may not agree, I, and other Steam users, perceive some utility in the application that isn't present in other forms of DRM. So in that respect, I think Gabe is correct in saying Steam is better than other DRM models.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: irishScott
The main reason people criticize online activation/interaction is because eventually (within a few years) the company will most likely shut down the authentication servers for some reason or other.

Steam, however, is too large to simply be shut down at this point. If Valve just decided to stop providing service, they'd have a riot on their hands.

As for resale value, this is only an issue for a few, and easily avoided. If you want to resell your game, now this is where it gets tricky, so bear with me. don't buy games you want to resell from Valve or Steam *gasp* could it really be that simple? :roll:

The above will also solve your issues with download time.

You're making a lot of assumptions there as to why people have a problem with online activation, and also in the assumption Valve/Steam is any more immune to financial meltdown than any other publisher. I'm not sure how a threat of a riot would prevent a company from going bankrupt if that were the situation they faced, but whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Actually I'm making one assumption about why people have a problem with online activation. I know what I've read and what I've heard. Hence I said it was the "main" reason.

That, and Valve isn't showing any signs of bankruptcy. If anything Steam is preventing that from happening (and doing a very good job of it). Sure all companies will likely disappear sooner or later, but plenty of people buy Windows and don't really think about that. Why? Because Microsoft isn't showing any signs of going anywhere. If valve went out of business in the near future, I'd be extremely surprised. More likely that they'd be bought out, but even then whoever buys them would be an absolute moron to not continue Steam service.

 

[mindcycle]

I agree that Steam is still DRM, but I feel it's more flexible than activation/install limited SecuROM protection. It's a step in the right direction but it's not perfect by any means. I still won't buy games off Steam because #1, i'm not going to pay full price for something that costs the publisher less to sell, and #2, I can't resell the game. I think the greater value that Gabe is talking about is the fact you can install the game whenever you want, back it up, no install limits, etc.. Still not a greater value for me personally, because of what I mentioned above, but for lots of people it is.

I wonder.. If you buy a boxed copy of Left 4 Dead for example, could you resell the boxed copy?.. or is the serial number tied to you once you register it without the option the "release" it, so to speak?

Anyway, I think there is still a better solution out there. GOG (Good Old Games) already has the solution, but I doubt any of the big guys would be willing to offer a GOG like service for new releases. It's too bad though, because it they made games available for download for slightly cheaper and used a GOG-like system, i'd probably buy way more games. But until publishers can get over the whole piracy thing, and basically just accept it, then not much is going to change.

 

[CrimsonWolf]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think Gabe is right in that Steam does give a benefit to customers. Your games are always available via a download. I never have to worry about losing a disc or key or both. For this they can implement DRM that actually benefits me. No more worrying Ill log into a MP game to find out my cd-key is already in use.

I have used steam since 2004 and love it. Wish all of my games were able to be run through Steam.

This. Steam is DRM, but it also actually adds value to consumers (what a concept). And it's so easy to keep the games on multiple computers. When I was traveling with my laptop the first time, all I had to do on the road was load up Steam, log-in, download my games, and that's it. No dragging game disks with me where ever I go.

Originally posted by: PingSpike
Of course "steam is DRM". But in a world where every game is trying to DRM fuck you, at least steam gives you a reach around and uses some lube.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: Dumac

Originally posted by: chizow
Yet its still DRM with pros and cons, so is it really any better? I don't think so, but then again DRM is a non-issue for me.

Its understandable for you to see Steam as no better than any other DRM scheme. However, Gabe has a point when he says that DRM should give the consumer some perceived benefit. Although you may not agree, I, and other Steam users, perceive some utility in the application that isn't present in other forms of DRM. So in that respect, I think Gabe is correct in saying Steam is better than other DRM models.

I think the real case is made by considering the number of Steam users on this board who are vocal against other forms of DRM. I'm fairly outspoken against SecuRom, but I buy most of my games through Steam. This doesn't make me a hypocrite, it just means that I prefer some DRM schemes over others.

Being able to download + install my game anywhere on any computer doesn't even feel like DRM. Perhaps resale is more difficult, but I don't resell my games so it's a moot point in my case. Steam is good DRM.

 

[Denithor]

Originally posted by: PingSpike
Of course "steam is DRM". But in a world where every game is trying to DRM fuck you, at least steam gives you a reach around and uses some lube.

ROF:laugh:MAO

Seriously funny, man! Had me laughing out loud in the office this afternoon.

Originally posted by: irishScott
That, and Valve isn't showing any signs of bankruptcy. If anything Steam is preventing that from happening (and doing a very good job of it). Sure all companies will likely disappear sooner or later, but plenty of people buy Windows and don't really think about that. Why? Because Microsoft isn't showing any signs of going anywhere. If valve went out of business in the near future, I'd be extremely surprised. More likely that they'd be bought out, but even then whoever buys them would be an absolute moron to not continue Steam service.

There is a surprisingly large number of absolute morons in the business world...

 

[Molondo]

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: irishScott
The main reason people criticize online activation/interaction is because eventually (within a few years) the company will most likely shut down the authentication servers for some reason or other.

Steam, however, is too large to simply be shut down at this point. If Valve just decided to stop providing service, they'd have a riot on their hands.

As for resale value, this is only an issue for a few, and easily avoided. If you want to resell your game, now this is where it gets tricky, so bear with me. don't buy games you want to resell from Valve or Steam *gasp* could it really be that simple? :roll:

The above will also solve your issues with download time.

You're making a lot of assumptions there as to why people have a problem with online activation, and also in the assumption Valve/Steam is any more immune to financial meltdown than any other publisher. I'm not sure how a threat of a riot would prevent a company from going bankrupt if that were the situation they faced, but whatever makes you sleep better at night.

And I don't buy off Steam even though I don't resell games, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy when someone states DRM is stupid while promoting their own.

Originally posted by: Molondo
I thought i would add, that you can definetly put all your games on a dvd. It really works great actually, unfortunately it does not save the updates, just the bare bone of the game. But saves you from downloading hours and hours of games.

Yes, you can also purchase an extra HDDs and DVDs to backup all your games, but that kinda defeats the purpose and convenience of digital download over retail copy doesn't it? Personally I'd rather have my box, manual and nice silkscreened DVD instead of a non-descript silver DVD with handwritten Sharpie letters.......

Yes, but i was commenting on your statement

through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to)because downloading over the span of hours is easier than installing off DVD in 5 minutes?,

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Dumac
For all of the people who think they are oh-so-clever so saying "Steam is DRM!", Newell said that himself in the interview. He's basically saying he thinks most forms of DRM (Starforce, SecuROM, etc) are dumb and "broken", while his form of DRM (Steam) actually gives some utility to the customer who is subjugated to it.

Yes, Steam = DRM. That is what Newell basically said. It's not a smart observation, not is it ironic in anyway.

Actually I was going by the title only, as I know Gabe is a bit of a blowhard when it comes to DRM and Piracy. But after actually reading the article, my statement stands, as Steam directly contradicts all the benefits he lists as positives for his form of DRM, Steam.

From the article:

• Newell doesn't have kind words for the use of digital rights managements. except for his own
  
  "As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers the resale value of your game decreases to zero as soon as you enter the CD key in Steam, is that creating value?
  
  through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to)because downloading over the span of hours is easier than installing off DVD in 5 minutes?,
  
  not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't)again, the resale value is zero if you buy off Steam, so the value of the product has clearly decreased
  
  he wrote. "We really really discourage other developers and publishers from using the broken DRM offerings, and in general there is a groundswell to abandon those approaches.Steam is so great, its the only form of DRM and distribution that gives you less, charges you just as much, but somehow makes you think you get more"

The greater irony is that "dumb" forms of DRM that do the same thing as Steam (CD authentication, online activation) is widely criticized even when they're less intrusive and less restrictive in general.

The main reason people criticize online activation/interaction is because eventually (within a few years) the company will most likely shut down the authentication servers for some reason or other.

Steam, however, is too large to simply be shut down at this point. If Valve just decided to stop providing service, they'd have a riot on their hands.

As for resale value, this is only an issue for a few, and easily avoided. If you want to resell your game, now this is where it gets tricky, so bear with me. don't buy games you want to resell from Valve or Steam *gasp* could it really be that simple? :roll:

The above will also solve your issues with download time.

i didn't know that I had prescience to tell if i would want to sell a game in the future or not. maybe i intended not to originally but came on hard times and it would be nice to sell it off? maybe i just got bored with it? myabe i bought a new OS and it doesn't work with that OS?

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: pontifex

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: chizow

Originally posted by: Dumac
For all of the people who think they are oh-so-clever so saying "Steam is DRM!", Newell said that himself in the interview. He's basically saying he thinks most forms of DRM (Starforce, SecuROM, etc) are dumb and "broken", while his form of DRM (Steam) actually gives some utility to the customer who is subjugated to it.

Yes, Steam = DRM. That is what Newell basically said. It's not a smart observation, not is it ironic in anyway.

Actually I was going by the title only, as I know Gabe is a bit of a blowhard when it comes to DRM and Piracy. But after actually reading the article, my statement stands, as Steam directly contradicts all the benefits he lists as positives for his form of DRM, Steam.

From the article:

• Newell doesn't have kind words for the use of digital rights managements. except for his own
  
  "As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers the resale value of your game decreases to zero as soon as you enter the CD key in Steam, is that creating value?
  
  through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to)because downloading over the span of hours is easier than installing off DVD in 5 minutes?,
  
  not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't)again, the resale value is zero if you buy off Steam, so the value of the product has clearly decreased
  
  he wrote. "We really really discourage other developers and publishers from using the broken DRM offerings, and in general there is a groundswell to abandon those approaches.Steam is so great, its the only form of DRM and distribution that gives you less, charges you just as much, but somehow makes you think you get more"

The greater irony is that "dumb" forms of DRM that do the same thing as Steam (CD authentication, online activation) is widely criticized even when they're less intrusive and less restrictive in general.

The main reason people criticize online activation/interaction is because eventually (within a few years) the company will most likely shut down the authentication servers for some reason or other.

Steam, however, is too large to simply be shut down at this point. If Valve just decided to stop providing service, they'd have a riot on their hands.

As for resale value, this is only an issue for a few, and easily avoided. If you want to resell your game, now this is where it gets tricky, so bear with me. don't buy games you want to resell from Valve or Steam *gasp* could it really be that simple? :roll:

The above will also solve your issues with download time.

i didn't know that I had prescience to tell if i would want to sell a game in the future or not. maybe i intended not to originally but came on hard times and it would be nice to sell it off? maybe i just got bored with it? myabe i bought a new OS and it doesn't work with that OS?

Then play it safe, and don't buy anything from Steam or Valve. It's not like they're forcing you to use it.

 

[MikeyLSU]

I love steam, but still wait for the day when you can transfer games to other people so you can sell them.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: venkman
Ummm...STEAM = DRM

It's quite a bit easier for me to sell my copy of Spore than it is for me to sell my copy of Left 4 Dead

Or you can sell your steam account.

/OMG

 

[mindcycle]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: venkman
Ummm...STEAM = DRM

It's quite a bit easier for me to sell my copy of Spore than it is for me to sell my copy of Left 4 Dead

Or you can sell your steam account.

/OMG

What if you had other games under your account?

 

[coloumb]

Originally posted by: n7
I love the irony in this.

Steam is indeed basically DRM...

Yup - an electronic version of which I can not resell.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Bateluer
I was going to post this article too, but got side tracked with a customer. I cannot post on AT all day.

I agree with Gabe's statements about DRM whole heartedly, BUT if he thinks DRM is idiotic, then why does he allow SecuRom on Steam titles? Perhaps its not entirely his decision, but then he should be strong lobbying against it.

Easy answer, Valve want 3rd party vendors on Steam. It's extremely good, not even for Valve, but also for Steam and for the movement as a whole (digital distribution, lesser DRM, etc). So while someone like Ubisoft may move all their products over to Steam with DRM, one of their future titles may not have it and that is the best Valve can hope for. Completely restricting DRM would possibly kill Steam before it's taken off.

Gabe's stance towards DRM affects Valve 1st party titles. And they've always been very good with DRM.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Spartan Niner
If I could transfer games from one account to another on Steam I would be quite happy. Since I have two accounts and the games don't overlap...

Yes but let's think about this for a minute. How many accounts should 1 person be able to create on Steam and how many games should they be able to "overlap" on accounts. Can I buy 1 copy of L4D, setup 4 accounts and then just have my friends login to those accounts? You are creating lots of loopholes, so unless you have a solution that isn't just "letting everyone play games for free", I'd love to hear it.

And of course the obvious resellability comes up in this discussion. Yes, you can't resell Steam games, yes that sucks. However, who the hell is buying Spore used knowing that it comes with a 5 install limit? I'd have to be a sucker to buy that game used just going on the honor code that Frank only used 1 of the 5 installations. Yea OK. No thanks, I'll buy it new so that I don't have to deal with someone's bullshit. Sure, this is more an issue for the buyer and not the seller, which really boils down the whole "me" mentality a lot of people have. As long as I can sell it, who cares about the buyer.

Also, most games now tie your cd key to your account. Which means if I buy the game from you I might get a banned multiplayer account that you were trying to pawn off on someone else or I might not even be able to use the multiplayer at all because you didn't give me a L/P.

No thanks, buying used PC games sucks. If Valve ever comes out with a reasonable way to transfer products over Steam it will put them head and shoulders over the competition in the used sales department.

 

[Czar]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I think Gabe is right in that Steam does give a benefit to customers. Your games are always available via a download. I never have to worry about losing a disc or key or both. For this they can implement DRM that actually benefits me. No more worrying Ill log into a MP game to find out my cd-key is already in use.

I have used steam since 2004 and love it. Wish all of my games were able to be run through Steam.

totaly agree

 

[Braznor]

STEAM is awesome. I love having my games online ready for me to download.