[VC]NVIDIA GeForce GTX 980, GTX 980 SLI, GTX 970, 3DMark performance

[Pinstripe]

18th September coincides with the Scottish independent vote. Maxwell was a Scot. Good thinking Nvidia.

 

[wand3r3r]

The $600 price could be an intentional leak to both make $500 appear "cheap", additionally they could be trying to quickly push the 780 ti/780 stock on the rumors that it will be expensive.

 

[RussianSensation]

I don't think you've seen 4K content on a TV, frankly. It's is not a subtle difference, and no, you don't need an 70" TV to see it. And are you actually suggesting that 290 Crossfire is a reasonable HTPC solution?

Some of your criticisms of the 970/980 are warranted. For a high-end gaming tower hooked up to a 4K monitor, yes, 290CF is a better solution than a 980. But in attacking my comment on HTPC use, you're really at the edge of reason.

Am I? Who spends $600 on a 980 for HTPC reasons? You admit it would get smoked by dual 290s for 4K gaming. If someone wanted a card for 4K media use, they would get a 960 or even 970. Your reasons for 980 being a great HTPC solution don't make any sense. It's not powerful enough for 4K gaming, yet for media features there will be cheaper and less power hungry HDMI 2.0 Maxwell cards. So how exactly would a $600 980 be a breakthrough for 4k HTPC Gaming?

No to neither. Pascal is 2016. 2015 is going to be 20 nm Maxwell.This is just a bridge card.

Sorry I wasn't clear. My point was that someone who is going to pay $600 for a 980 will likely keep it for about 2-3 years until Pascal. But if 980 is only 15% faster than 780Ti, it will have little future proofness about it, especially not for 4K. For example take a 680/770/7970Ghz user, they wouldn't be thrilled to buy a 980 for $600 since a similar level of performance was available in 780Ti a year ago and they haven't upgraded. Another 10-15% 1 year later is unlikely to make them suddenly jump with excitement. This is why to me this will be the worst generational jump from NV ever if they price this thing at $600 US and it only beats 780Ti by 15% or less.

 

[FatherMurphy]

18th September coincides with the Scottish independent vote. Maxwell was a Scot. Good thinking Nvidia.

Haha, nice. :thumbsup:

Edit: though, to be clear, the rumored release/unveiling date is the 19th.

 

[tviceman]

Am I? Who spends $600 on a 980 for HTPC reasons? You admit it would get smoked by dual 290s for 4K gaming. If someone wanted a card for 4K media use, they would get a 960 or even 970. Your reasons for 980 being a great HTPC solution don't make any sense. It's not powerful enough for 4K gaming, yet for media features there will be cheaper and less power hungry HDMI 2.0 Maxwell cards. So how exactly would a $600 980 be a breakthrough for 4k HTPC Gaming?

I would personally never want a 700+ watt computer running full-tilt for 3+ hours as an HTPC setup. That is a space heater, no other way to describe it. Add to that the acoustics and case needed to properly ventilate the setup you have in mind, and we're no longer talking about an HTPC computer, at least not in the practical sense. I personally wish the days of selling and building 2 foot tall desktop towers as a common practice would finally die.

To each their own though.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

At least they put the nice Titan cooler on the 980. That card is going to run very quiet with that cooler and low TDP rating.

 

[RussianSensation]

I would personally never want a 700+ watt computer running full-tilt for 3+ hours as an HTPC setup. That is a space heater, no other way to describe it. Add to that the acoustics and case needed to properly ventilate the setup you have in mind, and we're no longer talking about an HTPC computer, at least not in the practical sense. I personally wish the days of selling and building 2 foot tall desktop towers as a common practice would finally die.

To each their own though.

How do you get 700 watts for HTPC use? If you are watching 4K video, with zero core power, your 2nd card would be shut down. For media use a dual 290 rig would use less than 100W of power. For gaming at 4k as talked about a single 980 is not fast enough. If someone wants an efficient HTPC card, they would get a 960 or 970. How in the world does one make a case for a $600 HTPC card? I don't need a $600 card to watch movies in 4K and if I am gaming at 4K, I would spend $100-200 extra on 290s or 970s so I have the power to have at least half way decent 4K gaming experience.

The other point is, if someone can afford a $600 HTPC card, that user is already running a 780Ti and he won't upgrade for a mere 15% increase 1 year later.

As far as 250W of GPU power being too much in the living room, this has got to be some kind of a joke statement as PS3 and Xbox 360 used 230-240W of power at launch and sold like hot cakes. Not to mention Plasmas use 300-500W of power and videophiles use those all day long. So in practice a difference between an HTPC box with 265W of power (GM204) vs. 350W of power (GM210) would be non existent in the living room. You just need to make sure to not cheap out on CPU heatsink solution. Again, it was also informed when I mentioned that noise levels of a 250W Titan cooled GM210 would be drowned out by your TV or speakers making it a moot point.

 

[Termie]

How do you get 700 watts for HTPC use? If you are watching 4K video, with zero core power, your 2nd card would be shut down. For media use a dual 290 rig would use less than 100W of power. For gaming at 4k as talked about a single 980 is not fast enough. If someone wants an efficient HTPC card, they would get a 960 or 970. How in the world does one make a case for a $600 HTPC card? I don't need a $600 card to watch movies in 4K and if I am gaming at 4K, I would spend $100-200 extra on 290s or 970s so I have the power to have at least half way decent 4K gaming experience.

I never said an HTPC system, I said an HTPC gaming system. And yes, the 980 is fast enough for 4K. I've run my 780 Ti at 4K, and even 4K at high settings is far better than 1080p at ultra.

It's fairly clear you have no interest in 4K HTPC gaming (using an HTPC case, i.e., not a tower), but for the rest of us, who actually might want to game on a 4K TV along with using an HTPC for media, the 970/980 is a watershed release.

 

[skipsneeky2]

For example take a 680/770/7970Ghz user, they wouldn't be thrilled to buy a 980 for $600 since a similar level of performance was available in 780Ti a year ago and they haven't upgraded. Another 10-15% 1 year later is unlikely to make them suddenly jump with excitement.

For me this is so true as a 2gb gtx770 user. Paid $400 for it and well a $600 980 honestly isn't a massive upgrade. A few games in the next year may make me want a 4gb card but chances are a 290x will get my attention first anyways.

 

[tviceman]

How do you get 700 watts for HTPC use? If you are watching 4K video, with zero core power, your 2nd card would be shut down. For media use a dual 290 rig would use less than 100W of power. For gaming at 4k as talked about a single 980 is not fast enough. If someone wants an efficient HTPC card, they would get a 960 or 970. How in the world does one make a case for a $600 HTPC card? I don't need a $600 card to watch movies in 4K and if I am gaming at 4K, I would spend $100-200 extra on 290s or 970s so I have the power to have at least half way decent 4K gaming experience.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you are saying here in this quote regarding idle power draw, zero core, and the 980 not being enough to drive max graphics settings @ 4k. I am disagreeing specifically with HTPC and and 700+ watts under load when gaming. On top of this, 4k with graphically demanding games is still out of reach without significant compromises, except with perhaps a dual 295x2 or dual Titan-Z setup. But like I said, to each their own. If you like 4K gaming at reduced settings, good for you. If you think a mid-tower case with half a dozen fans expelling 700+ watts looks great beside your flat panel 60" TV, have at it.

All of this 4k talk anyways is nothing but a talking point to me. I won't be, and I doubt most people in this thread, will be moving to 4k within the next 18 months. Hell, I bet it'll be 2.5-3 years before I even consider 4k. But that's just me, as is my opinion of 750 watt gaming rigs. Then again, you live in Canada so I perhaps you like the extra heat.

Back to the meat of the discussion, I agree from a perf/$ standpoint that $600 for +10% 780 TI is downright unimpressive. The threshold for me to get excited at $600 is +25%.

 

[RussianSensation]

I never said an HTPC system, I said an HTPC gaming system. And yes, the 980 is fast enough for 4K. I've run my 780 Ti at 4K, and even 4K at high settings is far better than 1080p at ultra.

It's fairly clear you have no interest in 4K HTPC gaming (using an HTPC case, i.e., not a tower), but for the rest of us, who actually might want to game on a 4K TV along with using an HTPC for media, the 970/980 is a watershed release.

What you are saying is contradicts every single professional review:

1) 4K gaming at Medium/High looks worse than 1080/1440p at maxed;
2) 780Ti is waaaay too slow for modern games at 4K, in fact even 2 of those cards are too slow.

I don't know what games you play and at what settings. My 7970s overclocked beat a 780Ti OC and I game at 1080p. I can't max out all games. You are telling me 4K is viable on a single 780Ti for BF4 online multi-player, Crysis 3, Metro games, Watch Dogs?

A 780Ti would die running Watch Dogs maxed out at 4K. And that game looks atrocious without highest textures. Heck, 780Ti can't even beat a single 290X at 4K and hardly anyone would recommend a single 290X for 4k unless you are playing Portal 2 or LoL or WoW or something mildly demanding.

You haven't provided any reason at all why a 780Ti wouldn't work in a small case to make a strong point why a 165W 980 would somehow be a "breakthrough".

A breakthrough would be 980 at $449 because it would offer gamers who can't afford $600-700 cards like 780Ti new levels of performance. This is why price/performance is critical in making progress in the PC for people who have bills. Performance/watt, HDMI 2.0, etc. none of these things matter if a person cannot afford a $600 card.

Look at TechReport's survey - a gaming site - where you will see skewed statistics in favour of more expensive setups. Even then only 11% out of nearly 2800 people surveyed so far spend $500+ on a single GPU:

http://techreport.com/news/27055/the-tr-hardware-survey-2014-what-inside-your-main-desktop-pc

That means for the average market probably only 5-7% of all PC gamers buy GPUs for $500+.

$600 for 980 would make no dent in the HTPC market since of these 11%, only a tiny fraction cares about spending $600 on an HTPC card.

 

[Termie]

[snip]

Again, you clearly don't have a need for a high-powered HTPC on your AV rack. Some people do. The closest they are going to get is the GTX 980. Perhaps you'd suggest we fast-forward three years when a single 10.5" card can run every 4K game maxed, but by then, we'll have 8K TVs, and we'll need to start all over, won't we?

You may not like it, and you clearly aren't going to buy it, but the GTX 980 represents great new tech with cutting-edge features and efficiency, along with better performance than any card that's come before it.

And not to get too personal here, but when the 750 Ti first came out, you were extremely critical of it, and yet I've seen you recommend it over and over in the past few months. Perhaps you grew to appreciate its qualities and unique market niche. Is the GTX 980 so different in your eyes?

 

[Grooveriding]

It's a safe bet the 780ti and Titan Black will be the faster card for 4K. Both are just fine in an HTPC. 4K in the home theater is currently worthless anyways for anything but gaming. There is no 4K content. Upscaled 1080p to 4K has inferior PQ to native 1080p on a good screen. At this point 4K for HDTV is the purchase of the uninformed for the most part. Silly discussion.

 

[FatherMurphy]

I don't know that it is a "safe bet" that 780ti and Titan Black will be the faster cards for 4k. In fact, that seems like betting against the numbers. Nvidia didn't double the number of ROPs on the 980 from 32 to 64 for giggles. That's 16 more ROPs than either 780ti or Titan Black. Of course, we need to see if the lesser memory bandwidth will affect the 980 at 4k, but if that was the case, Nvidia wouldn't have created such an imbalanced chip by choking the 64 ROPs with too little memory bandwidth.

Though I certainly agree with your sentiments about 4k in home theaters in the near future.

 

[x3sphere]

As the first HDMI 2.0 capable card I see Nvidia really pushing 4K with this release. I'm doubtful it's going to underperform against the 780 Ti.

 

[jadders]

I would like to know the technical details of this "Dynamic Super Resolution"... I'm assuming that nvidia wouldn't pull such BS if it didn't work somewhat in perception.

 

[x3sphere]

I would like to know the technical details of this "Dynamic Super Resolution"... I'm assuming that nvidia wouldn't pull such BS if it didn't work somewhat in perception.

If I had to guess: it sounds like this could involve downsampling to achieve maximum image quality, similar to SSAA. IE render a game at 4K and downscale to 1080p. A lot of people already do this by setting a custom resolution and some games like Battlefield 4 have similar scaling settings built-in but it'd be very useful to have this at the driver level.

If this is the case, it would also suggest this card is going to be no slouch at higher resolutions.

 

[tollingalong]

My 7970s overclocked beat a 780Ti OC and I game at 1080p.

780 non-TI that's not OCed maybe. I have trouble believing a 7970 OC beats an OC 780 Ti. Agreed on all your other points.

...the 980 is fast enough for 4K. I've run my 780 Ti at 4K, and even 4K at high settings is far better than 1080p at ultra.

I guess better is subjective… picture quality isn't better for sure when one has 4k at high and 1080p at ultra…
I also cannot believe a 780Ti is great as 4K. I suppose if you play solitaire. Definitely not a modern game. So far I'm not convince the 980 will be much better in the 4k department.

 

[Lepton87]

I wanted to upgrade to this new card but I always want close to double the performance with every graphics card upgrade and as it turns out I would get +30%(probably less) at best with this new 980 which doesn't seem like a true high-end card just like 680 never seemed like a true premium product to me so I just bought another Titan. It wasn't easy to find but I found it, I probably overpaid for it because I paid half the release price but at the very least it's future proof, I'm gonna buy a third one when the price comes down to 1/3 the release price my PSU and MOBO can handle it. I'll probably wait out 20nm with TITANS in TRI-SLI and then upgrade the whole rig with SKYLAKE-E and 16FF big chip from either AMD or NV depending on who will offer a better deal and of course 16GB of DDR4 3200. Hopefully that comes in 2016.
UPDATE:
I might get the third Titan sooner then I though I accidentally clicked make an offer on an auction and I can't withdraw the offer if the seller won't agree. At the very least it's cheaper then the one I bought a few days ago and the seller claims it's new. If no one offers more for it I will be obligated to buy it. On the plus side three Titans may make use of that over-sized memory pool.

 

[x3sphere]

780 non-TI that's not OCed maybe. I have trouble believing a 7970 OC beats an OC 780 Ti. Agreed on all your other points.



I guess better is subjective… picture quality isn't better for sure when one has 4k at high and 1080p at ultra…
I also cannot believe a 780Ti is great as 4K. I suppose if you play solitaire. Definitely not a modern game. So far I'm not convince the 980 will be much better in the 4k department.

Depends on what you play really. A single card can actually handle a lot of games at 4K/60Hz. With crossfire off I can maintain 60 in Dark Souls 2 and Castlevania Lords of Shadow 2, both games that came out not too long ago.

And a lot of stuff from 2012 or earlier will be playable. Sure you aren't going to max out games that are pushing all the bells and whistles, but you aren't going to limited to just Solitaire either ( I realize you were joking but still).

Besides that if he is gaming on a 4K TV, IMO it is always better to set resolution to native and turn down visuals options if necessary. I find they have been adding a lot of really demanding effects to games lately that have minimal IQ impact, like depth of field. The DoF effect in Metro 2033 (original, not sure about Redux) was way overdone and looked terrible imo, took a 20+ FPS performance hit with it on too.

 

[MathMan]

Pascal is 2016. 2015 is going to be 20 nm Maxwell.
This is just a bridge card.

So they still exist, people who think there'll ever be 20nm GPUs.

Apple is using 20nm for the iPhones. That has 2 implications:
- 20nm is ready for very large volume.
- very large volume eaten by Apple.

If Nvidia and AMD are still releasing 28nm today, it will be a year before you see a follow-up, at least. By that time, 16FF will be ready for production.

There's not going to be a 20nm discrete GPU from either company. Ever. Just let the idea die in peace.

 

[njdevilsfan87]

4k at 6hz isn't that far off. The Asus rog swift requires the same amount of gpu power to run 144hz at 1440p. Memory usage would be the only difference.

 

[Kippa]

Are there any rough dates for 20nm Maxwell cards? Are there likely to be any in the first quarter or the first half? Or are they likely to be release much later in the year?

Another thing would a single gfx card be able to support 4K at medium to high fps if all AA was turned completely off?

 

[jpiniero]

If Nvidia and AMD are still releasing 28nm today, it will be a year before you see a follow-up, at least. By that time, 16FF will be ready for production.

I still could see a "16FF" Big Maxwell released sometime in the middle of the year. But that might be the only chip released by nVidia in 2015. The cost improvement of 16FF may not be so great so there might only be room in the additional transistor budget to pump up the DP though.

 

[CakeMonster]

I've been wanting scaling for a long time, I'm tired of all of my windows being messed up by running a game in a non-native resolution. If that can be brought along I'd be very happy. That said, I'm not a fan of cheap downscaling tricks from consoles being brought over to the pc either and I fear it will be used a lot when 4K monitors become the norm.