Vega/Navi Rumors (Updated)

Page 165 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Snarf Snarf

Senior member
Feb 19, 2015
399
327
136
I have a feeling that you might be right - AMD's mining strength comes from Radeons having a kind of "brute force" approach to performance, while Nvidia has a lot of tricks and tweaks giving them better perf/flop.

As for production capacity, I'd say Ryzen is taking up quite a bit of capacity, as well as the new Macs of various kinds. Also, AMD has seen quite a few inventory write-offs in recent years, so I'm betting they're willing to forego some mining sales to avoid another one of those. If they ramp up production today, the first cards will hit retail in mid July, and the mining bubble might burst at pretty much any time. I doubt they want to be stuck with two-three weeks of maxed out production capacity stock sitting unsellable in warehouses just as Vega launches. Not to mention ramping up Polaris production now would pretty much have to come out of Vega production. Don't think they want that either.

You're probably right on the inventory thing, Hawaii and the 300 series cards sat on shelves for a long time and got really big cuts. I don't want to jinx it but this management team in charge of AMD seems to be learning from their mistakes. The market share expectations are realistic, they expect anywhere from 5-9% increase, with hopefully the same numbers year over year. That puts them optimistically at around ~35% by summer 2018. At that market share, if AMD sells 100% of the cards they make at full price without having to eat inventory losses I think RTG is going to be a really good place going forward.

I committed to Vega 10 when I went freesync. The only way I'd give up on Vega is if it's not going to be possible for me to get it. Then I'll just give up on gaming again until Volta. I waited 1.25 years for Vega to release. Another half year won't hurt me if I can't pick up Vega by September.

I'm getting ready to make a commitment to an eco-system so I've waited this long to see what Vega 10 has to offer. I want a 1440p 144hz IPS monitor and if performance parity exists I'll be going with AMD for the cheaper overall package like you did.
 
Reactions: Valantar

Bacon1

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2016
3,430
1,018
91
Well adaptive refresh rates are not an absolute requirement in the DisplayPort 1.3 specs ...

What good is that if the standards aren't mandatory but only voluntary ? (I don't even think DP 1.4 makes adaptive sync a requirement either!)

If we want Nvidia to listen to us we have to make it clear with the rest of the manufacturers who will get through to them ...

If we really want a true baseline then we'll do it with HDMI 2.1 since variable refresh rates are guaranteed in the spec. (Maybe better luck next time when VESA makes adaptive sync a requirement for DP 1.5 ?)

I know it's optional, the point is they aren't supporting it. Not sure why you are trying to defend Nvidia here. Wonder if Nvidia will hold off on HDMI 2.1 and continue to force you to pay for their module. With how much love Nvidia's driver team gets its amazing they haven't added Adaptive-Sync support in 3 years.

Hopefully they'll be forced to when they have high end competition
 

richaron

Golden Member
Mar 27, 2012
1,357
329
136
Well adaptive refresh rates are not an absolute requirement in the DisplayPort 1.3 specs ...

What good is that if the standards aren't mandatory but only voluntary ? (I don't even think DP 1.4 makes adaptive sync a requirement either!))

Dude do you even think about what you write? That's like asking "what's the good of cruise control when I only drive around town?", or "what's the good of CPU instruction extensions when the programs I use don't support them?", or "what's the good of those buttons on my calculator which I never use?", or "what's the use of apps in the store which I'll never install?", etc.

The fact you don't have to use, or understand, extra functionality is a bad argument against it's existence.
 

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
I know it's optional, the point is they aren't supporting it. Not sure why you are trying to defend Nvidia here. Wonder if Nvidia will hold off on HDMI 2.1 and continue to force you to pay for their module. With how much love Nvidia's driver team gets its amazing they haven't added Adaptive-Sync support in 3 years.

Hopefully they'll be forced to when they have high end competition

They'll be forced to otherwise they risk being left behind industry standards much like how Nvidia has to keep up with Microsoft. Nvidia just isn't fully self dependent yet so they have to be at the mercy of others somehow ...

I'm not trying to purposefully defend Nvidia, I'm only providing a fair point of view ...

If you understand why it's optional then I don't see the constant need to badger Nvidia for something only THEY can choose. You need to come to terms with that since it's not a productive way to push higher standards on them ...

If you want Nvidia to do something at least wait for the rest of the industry to put their foot down and draw the line ...

Dude do you even think about what you write? That's like asking "what's the good of cruise control when I only drive around town?", or "what's the good of CPU instruction extensions when the programs I use don't support them?", or "what's the good of those buttons on my calculator which I never use?", or "what's the use of apps in the store which I'll never install?", etc.

The fact you don't have to use, or understand, extra functionality is a bad argument against it's existence.

How nice of you to lay out an ad hominem ...

You fail to understand the difference between mandatory functionality vs optional functionality ...
 

richaron

Golden Member
Mar 27, 2012
1,357
329
136
How nice of you to lay out an ad hominem ...

You fail to understand the difference between mandatory functionality vs optional functionality ...

Lol you have no idea what that expression means.

I clearly addressed your reasoning and provided several similar, and similarly stupid, examples.

Edit: For the record I'll try to stick to my original point and not be distracted too much. So I will keep returning to these two quotes as far as you want to take this discussion. This is why I joined this conversation.
What good is that if the standards aren't mandatory but only voluntary ?
The fact you don't have to use, or understand, extra functionality is a bad argument against it's existence.
 
Last edited:

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
Lol you have no idea what that expression means.

I clearly addressed your reasoning and provided several similar, and similarly stupid, examples.

You mean you wish you did otherwise you wouldn't have to go through the length of demeaning me so much ... (you already lost the argument when made a coarse retort)

Industry wide standards =/= optional functionality no matter how much you distort this reality ...
 
Reactions: crisium

richaron

Golden Member
Mar 27, 2012
1,357
329
136
You mean you wish you did otherwise you wouldn't have to go through the length of demeaning me so much ... (you already lost the argument when made a coarse retort)

Industry wide standards =/= optional functionality no matter how much you distort this reality ...

Nope I can make you look bad and also show your arguments obviously misguided. And anyone with any sense will see that I addressed your arguments, not only posted with the intention of "demeaning" you.

It seems you posted whilst I was editing my last post, but I did say I will keep returning to the original issue *about Adaptive Sync*:
What good is that if the standards aren't mandatory but only voluntary ?
The fact you don't have to use, or understand, extra functionality is a bad argument against it's existence.

*added for clarification.
 
Last edited:

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
Nope I can make you look bad and also show your arguments obviously misguided. And anyone with any sense will see that I addressed your arguments, not only posted with the intention of "demeaning" you.

It seems you posted whilst I was editing my last post, but I did say I will keep returning to the original issue:

Just a useless reminder if you ask me or anyone ...

You can take that crappy circular logic and push it elsewhere ...

Not use or understand extra functionality is bad argument against it's own existence ?!

You know what, don't ever reply to me again with this idealistic rubbish if you're not even going to be realistic about addressing my point at hand ...
 

richaron

Golden Member
Mar 27, 2012
1,357
329
136
Just a useless reminder if you ask me or anyone ...

You can take that crappy circular logic and push it elsewhere ...

Not use or understand extra functionality is bad argument against it's own existence ?!

You know what, don't ever reply to me again with this idealistic rubbish if you're not even going to be realistic about addressing my point at hand ...

You seem to not only misunderstand the concept of an "ad hominem" argument, but you really don't understand what a circular argument is. I will keep repeating my original argument because you keep on changing the subject or confusing this thread. So I will bring up our original posts because they are the reason I joined this conversation and so I want to make sure any counter arguments (if you can manage them) are about the subject of conversation.

This is not a circular argument; it is me returning the argument to the subject at hand. So we were talking about VESA adaptive sync:
What good is that if the standards aren't mandatory but only voluntary ?
The fact you don't have to use, or understand, extra functionality is a bad argument against it's existence.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,561
13,121
136
This thread keeps rolling and rolling and I keep on checking it every 5 new pages or so... If launch is imminent, even for the pro cards, should there not be a ton of leaks by now? There is just ... silence ... and fake leaks. What is going on?
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,021
6,473
136
Launch is still 3 weeks out and I don't expect there to be any third party pro cards so there are far fewer sources for leaks.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
gsync or free sync helps but as a person that has a 1080 ti with a gsync monitor the 50 fps is noticeable albeit not as bad as without it. But then again if its not 75 or over fps wise the game does not feel all that smooth. In a racing game it slightly less noticeable though. I went nvidia for the sole reason of not wanting to wait this long, as a brand agnostic person I needed the performance now, the 290, 480 (after giving the former to my cousin), 980 ti (newer games suffer), 1070 and 1080 was not cutting it. Also alot of the games I play tend to favor nvidia more. 60 fps is good but as you get to the 75-80 mark with most settings at max then the game offers up a whole new experience with the added fluidity. While I agree the ti is more expensive than it should due to lack of competition its still a mighty fine card and as of now the only card at this price range that I felt like I got my moneys worth from. Amd might indeed have a faster card but as it stands I'm in the nvidia camp because amd took too long to offer the performance I needed and Im not letting my gsync monitor (amazing monitor) go to waste......but in a year or two I might reconsider depending on how things turn out.

Yes but it's a simple choice is my point. You don't really cross shop the brands currently at this point.

I recommend amd to the majority of people because the majority of people just don't care about graphics as much as we do on this forum where we're nitpicking screenshots and amd offers the cheapest entry point into a system that works great.

Nvidia is for those who gaming is important to them, they're willing to pay a premium to have it first, etc. Although really, it boils down to can you afford a gsync monitor? No? You shouldn't have an Nvidia gpu. Which is exactly why I don't have a 1080ti is the monitor is just too much for my personal threshold for gaming. I'll spend a lot on my server, on a dog, on clothes, but gaming I just can't.

If Vega was faster that'd be great, but imo it makes no sense to wait for Vega if you weren't buying into the ecosystem.

Lucky for amd, coffeelake doesn't come out until August. I may end up pre-ordering a Vega gpu for my brother. Actually kind of wasn't sure about coffeelake because I can't find good reviews on how far scaling goes for streamers. Because if Threadripper is the best cpu.... I may just end up getting my bro an all and build would be an insane loss for Nvidia/Intel but if that's the best streamer build I gotta do it..

Im really hoping Threadripper is the best streaming cpu just to make things interesting.
 

swilli89

Golden Member
Mar 23, 2010
1,558
1,181
136
Yes but it's a simple choice is my point. You don't really cross shop the brands currently at this point.

I recommend amd to the majority of people because the majority of people just don't care about graphics as much as we do on this forum where we're nitpicking screenshots and amd offers the cheapest entry point into a system that works great.

Nvidia is for those who gaming is important to them, they're willing to pay a premium to have it first, etc. Although really, it boils down to can you afford a gsync monitor? No? You shouldn't have an Nvidia gpu. Which is exactly why I don't have a 1080ti is the monitor is just too much for my personal threshold for gaming. I'll spend a lot on my server, on a dog, on clothes, but gaming I just can't.

If Vega was faster that'd be great, but imo it makes no sense to wait for Vega if you weren't buying into the ecosystem.

Lucky for amd, coffeelake doesn't come out until August. I may end up pre-ordering a Vega gpu for my brother. Actually kind of wasn't sure about coffeelake because I can't find good reviews on how far scaling goes for streamers. Because if Threadripper is the best cpu.... I may just end up getting my bro an all and build would be an insane loss for Nvidia/Intel but if that's the best streamer build I gotta do it..

Im really hoping Threadripper is the best streaming cpu just to make things interesting.

Do you think you're fooling anyone here? You know we can see your post history right? You've ALREADY STATED Vega is dead in the water a long time ago and already stated your intention to buy a 1080 ti.

You keep trying to shape this discussion that AMD is for x buyers and nvidia is for Y buyers but no one thinks like that. You've been trolling this thread trying to structure AMD as an inferior choice but it's obvious to most of us exactly who you are and why you're here.



Both you and tential. Stop it.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director
 
Last edited by a moderator:

tg2708

Senior member
May 23, 2013
687
20
81
@tential I'm price conscious to a certain degree but after the 10 series came out and amd had nothing to offer I decided to jump ship. Yes I grossly over paid to a degree but only nvidia offered the performance I needed to get the most out of my monitor. All the cards I listed in my original post are very good cards but when you have monitor that pushes 1440p 165 hz a card that can get me close to that with a little compromise is good buy in my book. If AMD came out with a card of the same caliber before I chose my monitor last September I would have gone with them or taken a more cautious approach in choosing which brand would be the wiser choice. Also I love everything tech, phones, watches etc. and if I had expendable income where I could just spend money and not have to worry I would always go for the latest whether its intel, amd, nvidia etc.
 

Snarf Snarf

Senior member
Feb 19, 2015
399
327
136
Do you think you're fooling anyone here? You know we can see your post history right? You've ALREADY STATED Vega is dead in the water a long time ago and already stated your intention to buy a 1080 ti.

You keep trying to shape this discussion that AMD is for x buyers and nvidia is for Y buyers but no one thinks like that. You've been trolling this thread trying to structure AMD as an inferior choice but it's obvious to most of us exactly who you are and why you're here.

He isn't trolling, he's just a disgruntled AMD fan. To be fair, if you were in his position with a great Freesync monitor without an appropriate performance GPU to power it you'd get frustrated waiting for this drawn out launch too.

The shaping of what AMD buyers are isn't really an opinion anymore these days. I build a fair amount of systems for people at my work, and I can say 1 in about 10 customers actually want a Radeon in their system. Ryzen has also had some problems gaining traction as the i7 brand image is so strong. There will always be well informed consumers that make decisions based on what is best for them, but from my experience in PC retail people like us make up about 10-15% of the total buying market. In the end most of the Radeon/AMD based builds I make are because the customer is extremely cost oriented. The Freesync eco system is an extremely strong selling point for RTG, and they need to improve the functional range on a lot of their monitors (I know the monitor makers decide this but AMD can set a tighter specification for them to follow) and their marketing team needs to really hammer this home. Total cost of ownership for a "premium" gaming display and top end card to run it is usually $150-$200 cheaper than an Nvidia G-Sync equivalent.

Edit: Grammatical error
 

railven

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2010
6,604
561
126
You're probably right on the inventory thing, Hawaii and the 300 series cards sat on shelves for a long time and got really big cuts. I don't want to jinx it but this management team in charge of AMD seems to be learning from their mistakes. The market share expectations are realistic, they expect anywhere from 5-9% increase, with hopefully the same numbers year over year. That puts them optimistically at around ~35% by summer 2018. At that market share, if AMD sells 100% of the cards they make at full price without having to eat inventory losses I think RTG is going to be a really good place going forward.

This is very important. AMD tried to ride on the Bitmine wave with Hawaii and got burned, bad. Hopefully they did learn a lesson. Regardless, if the miners are hungry, I only see it hurting AMD's mindshare in the end, as gamers get shafted. Feels like a lose/lose situation, but the best end result is not to see the used market basically destroy the Radeon value/sales. People can bang on their drum a sale is a sale, but what we saw with the bubble burst was miners buying NV on their mining profits, burned gamers buying NV do to shortages/gouging of Radeons, and budget buyers scooping up used Radeons for 1/3-1/2 the market price mean while AMD was ramping up productions only to have cards sit on shelves.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,355
642
121
He isn't trolling, he's just a disgruntled AMD fan. To be fair, if you were in his position with a great Freesync monitor without an appropriate performance GPU to power it you'd get frustrated waiting for this drawn out launch too.

The shaping of what AMD buyers are isn't really an opinion anymore these days. I build a fair amount of systems for people at my work, and I can say 1 in about 10 customers actually want a Radeon in their system. Ryzen has also had some problems gaining traction as the i7 brand image is so strong. There will always be well informed consumers that make decisions based on what is best for them, but from my experience in PC retail people like us make up about 10-15% of the total buying market. In the end most of the Radeon/AMD based builds I make are because the customer is extremely cost oriented. The Freesync eco system is an extremely strong selling point for RTG, and they need to improve the functional range on a lot of their monitors (I know the monitor makers decide this but AMD can set a tighter specification for them to follow) and their marketing team needs to really hammer this home. Total cost of ownership for a "premium" gaming display and top end card to run it is usually $150-$200 cheaper than an Nvidia G-Sync equivalent.

Edit: Grammatical error

I'm not an AMD fan at all. I don't care about either company. That's the difference between me and many people in this thread. I follow Vega because I intended to purchase the GPU a LONG time ago, committed to this, budgeted it, and have had the money set aside for 2x Vega GPU high end. Many are following just because they like AMD (which is fine), or are interested in hardware (please tell me you still exist) This isn't in the AMD section. If you want a spot where we are supposed to be more positive we have the vendor sections. There is this thread right here:
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/?id=Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps&exid=threads/radeon-vega-architecture-preview-thread.2496105/page-10

On the topic of AMD specifically, I'm a numbers person. And Async levels the playing field for the AVERAGE user. Yes, there are people who can tell the FPS difference. Great, if they can afford it, they should get a Gsync monitor and Nvidia card. AMD should FORCE it on reviewers to use a freesync monitor and to write about the comparison test, or they don't get the GPU. (I like Nvidia as a company for ownership, hence why I said that you probably shouldn't buy a GTX 1070, but you should buy Nvidia stock.)

Async is the great equalizer for the majority of gamers.


This is just basic common sense, I'm not stating something crazy or revolutionary here. It's the BASIC TCO that you just stated. Would I pay a $200+(I think you're being WAY too generous on the Gsync tax premium sometimes. Especially for the newer tech or 4K stuff) premium for an Nvidia setup? No. In my case, it's even crazier since it's a 4k setup. I just don't care about gaming that much to do so.

That's why I say that for the vast majority of people it's truly basic questions:
Am I willing to wait to have cutting edge graphics performance?
Am I willing to pay the Gsync tax?
---


This is very important. AMD tried to ride on the Bitmine wave with Hawaii and got burned, bad. Hopefully they did learn a lesson. Regardless, if the miners are hungry, I only see it hurting AMD's mindshare in the end, as gamers get shafted. Feels like a lose/lose situation, but the best end result is not to see the used market basically destroy the Radeon value/sales. People can bang on their drum a sale is a sale, but what we saw with the bubble burst was miners buying NV on their mining profits, burned gamers buying NV do to shortages/gouging of Radeons, and budget buyers scooping up used Radeons for 1/3-1/2 the market price mean while AMD was ramping up productions only to have cards sit on shelves.

Eh, I tried to have this conversation already railven. People here believe that a sale to a miner is exactly the same as same to a gamer and they don't see the long term benefits of pulling in the gamer sales. You can't really get into a deeper quality of revenues(or earnings quality) discussion because this is a tech forum and not a financial forecasting debate.

I agree with you though, it's a huge threat(but also revenue opportunity) to AMD, and one they should be looking to mitigate. It's a tough spot for AMD, especially with their company philosophy I can't see them restricting mining from gaming cards and moving it to a mining only series, but that's one option I think they could take.
 
Last edited:

Snarf Snarf

Senior member
Feb 19, 2015
399
327
136
@tential sorry I didn't mean to imply that you are a fanboy of AMD, should have said customer awaiting a specific product, and that you're pissed that its taking so long to get to market.

People like to defend the mining sales because we personally gain from them. There's a huge number of people who scooped up 290's on the cheap and have been gaming happily for years on them and that clouds their judgement(and like you mention a lot of them used mining profits to buy Nvidia cards to game on, Russian comes to mind I know there's others). It makes Polaris look bad in perf/$ and when making perf/$ arguments they will use their used card prices instead of MSRP. What they aren't realizing is the effect this has on future sales, a sale isn't a sale when that item goes to Ebay later and a future buyer grabs a half priced used card instead of a new one. This is healthy when you have the release cadence Nvidia has, a new line up every 18 months. Used cards go to Ebay but those buyers get the newer tech and pass on the older to price sensitive buyers. When used buyers picked up the 290's on the market and found out Polaris wasn't an upgrade, AMD lost 2 buyer cycles worth of sales because they over produced Hawaii to meet bitcoin demands.
 

ThatBuzzkiller

Golden Member
Nov 14, 2014
1,120
260
136
You seem to not only misunderstand the concept of an "ad hominem" argument, but you really don't understand what a circular argument is. I will keep repeating my original argument because you keep on changing the subject or confusing this thread. So I will bring up our original posts because they are the reason I joined this conversation and so I want to make sure any counter arguments (if you can manage them) are about the subject of conversation.

This is not a circular argument; it is me returning the argument to the subject at hand. So we were talking about VESA adaptive sync:

Keep up the straw man since you weren't even close to addressing my argument!

That is why you'll always be in circular logic when you're moving goal posts ...
 

jpiniero

Lifer
Oct 1, 2010
14,842
5,457
136
At this stage, AMD might be better off delaying Vega consumer's release until the mining hysteria dies down.
 

dark zero

Platinum Member
Jun 2, 2015
2,655
138
106
At this stage, AMD might be better off delaying Vega consumer's release until the mining hysteria dies down.
Hardly... now the mining hysteria is contagious and it affected nVIDIA too. And seems that nVIDIA will get affected eventually.

Wondering if Intel will take part of that....
 

JDG1980

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2013
1,663
570
136
When used buyers picked up the 290's on the market and found out Polaris wasn't an upgrade, AMD lost 2 buyer cycles worth of sales because they over produced Hawaii to meet bitcoin demands.

The underlying problem here wasn't the mining sales, but the fact that Polaris didn't bring any raw performance improvements to the table. It offered some new features (e.g. HEVC decoding and HDMI 2.0 output), and better perf/watt than 28nm, but didn't really game any better than Hawaii. AMD kept making 28nm Fiji for a while despite its shortcomings, because it still outperformed Polaris and was the only thing they had that could even attempt to compete with the GTX 1070.

If AMD had a "big" Polaris card,, then there would have been more sales because there would have been a meaningful upgrade path. The lack of R&D funding has hurt the GPU division greatly.
 
Reactions: ozzy702
Status
Not open for further replies.
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |