Vega/Navi Rumors (Updated)

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EXCellR8

Diamond Member
Sep 1, 2010
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it's really too bad if this doesn't pan out because the Ryzen's are a huge success... of course there's Navi on deck but by then who knows what NVIDIA will have in the works. i don't dislike NVIDIA but their high rate of obsoleting and heavy price tag don't align very well for me.
 
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tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
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it's really too bad if this doesn't pan out because the Ryzen's are a huge success... of course there's Navi on deck but by then who knows what NVIDIA will have in the works. i don't dislike NVIDIA but their high rate of obsoleting and heavy price tag don't align very well for me.

Kepler is the ONLY product they have released that "obsoleted" fast. GT200 held up fine. Fermi held up fine. Maxwell has held up just fine. Pascal is holding up just fine. If Vega releases at $500 or more (given ~1080 performance), then this "heavy price tag" discussion will need to be re-evaluated too.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,820
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Nano sized card at 250-300W? That's never going to happen.
I heard the new Xbox One X would fit the bill perfectly for you then, unless you don't mind overspending for RX Vega then undervolting to drop 25% off performance to get to ~150 watt power consumption.

LoL--guys, I understand the current reality. I'm merely griefing over the best-case predictions from several months ago, when literally nothing was known about Vega FE and people were speculating based on die size and new architecture improvements like binning rasterizer or whatsit--with the assumption, of course, that everything worked as it was assumed to work on paper.

....my request here was completely reasonable at that time.
 
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tviceman

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Mar 25, 2008
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LoL--guys, I understand the current reality. I'm merely griefing over the best-case predictions from several months ago, when literally nothing was known about Vega FE and people were speculating based on die size and new architecture improvements like binning rasterizer or whatsit--with the assumption, of course, that everything worked as it was assumed to work on paper.

....my request here was completely reasonable at that time.

I think your hopes and heart was in the right place, but reality hasn't changed since Polaris got a release and then a refresh. People here were whipping up a Polaris refresh with frenzied high hopes of a respin and much improved process... L.O.L. Until AMD can publicly demonstrate an ability to compete in performance per watt, they will never touch Nvidia on the high end again. AMD fanboys putting best case predictions on every AMD rumor hurts AMD's image more than anything else.
 

EXCellR8

Diamond Member
Sep 1, 2010
3,982
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Kepler is the ONLY product they have released that "obsoleted" fast. GT200 held up fine. Fermi held up fine. Maxwell has held up just fine. Pascal is holding up just fine. If Vega releases at $500 or more (given ~1080 performance), then this "heavy price tag" discussion will need to be re-evaluated too.

i think you're confusing obsoleting with EOL in terms of how NVIDIA releases cards. i'm not saying that people throw their cards away after 4 months but in that amount of time that same card has lost most of its value and something faster/more efficient is available. same can be said about pretty much anything related to consumer electronics, but NVIDIA & its partners crank out new cards at an alarming rate.

End of life is different... for example there's no reason to NOT keep a perfectly good Fermi or Kepler if it works fine and does what you need it to.
 
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zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,820
29,571
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I think your hopes and heart was in the right place, but reality hasn't changed since Polaris got a release and then a refresh. People here were whipping up a Polaris refresh with frenzied high hopes of a respin and much improved process... L.O.L. Until AMD can publicly demonstrate an ability to compete in performance per watt, they will never touch Nvidia on the high end again. AMD fanboys putting best case predictions on every AMD rumor hurts AMD's image more than anything else.

Right, what AMD had going for Vega in the rumor mill, at least, is that Vega was to be, over and over, not Polaris. And while that remains true, it seems that the goodies on paper definitely are not translating to real performance right now. Many of those goodies that nVidia had been utilizing to great success, finally making its way to GCN. The primary thing that one could remain skeptical about would be GCN and its history, despite Vega being "a total revolution of GCN" or some such nonsense. By now, I think it is demonstrably clear that GCN really is a pure calculation design, despite whatever fancy graphics-oriented components are crammed in there, as it just isn't going to be as efficient in that specific task. And it wasn't until yesterday, in the earnings call, that the "new AMD" more or less officially announced that their strategy with RTG is server/big-data focused.

I think Vega was the last sliver of hopeful rumor-mongering where most anyone could reasonably expect AMD to return to direct competition with nVidia in the pure gaming sector, but that is all in the past now.

Not to say Vega will be terrible for what it is....depending on the price, of course...as we still don't know any hard numbers for RX with mature drivers, but the messaging with Vega FE and Vega RX up until now is so vastly different with what AMD was doing compared to Ryzen during the same pre-release time that I think it is all but certain AMD has no plans to compete in the high end or ultra high end here.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,561
13,122
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Kind of, but built into those iMac Pro's (So not AIO of course.). Suspect that a Nano equivalent would perform roughly like a 1070, so very hard to justify.

I'd just wait a bit and get an air cooled Volta xx60..... Should be about the all park performance.

Thats my plan about now.. if/when the 580ies return to normal, get one of those and wait for Volta.
 

tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
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Right, what AMD had going for Vega in the rumor mill, at least, is that Vega was to be, over and over, not Polaris. And while that remains true, it seems that the goodies on paper definitely are not translating to real performance right now. Many of those goodies that nVidia had been utilizing to great success, finally making its way to GCN. The primary thing that one could remain skeptical about would be GCN and its history, despite Vega being "a total revolution of GCN" or some such nonsense. By now, I think it is demonstrably clear that GCN really is a pure calculation design, despite whatever fancy graphics-oriented components are crammed in there, as it just isn't going to be as efficient in that specific task. And it wasn't until yesterday, in the earnings call, that the "new AMD" more or less officially announced that their strategy with RTG is server/big-data focused.

I think Vega was the last sliver of hopeful rumor-mongering where most anyone could reasonably expect AMD to return to direct competition with nVidia in the pure gaming sector, but that is all in the past now.

Not to say Vega will be terrible for what it is....depending on the price, of course...as we still don't know any hard numbers for RX with mature drivers, but the messaging with Vega FE and Vega RX up until now is so vastly different with what AMD was doing compared to Ryzen during the same pre-release time that I think it is all but certain AMD has no plans to compete in the high end or ultra high end here.

It's interesting that AMD is taking a multi-market approach with it's highest end while Nvidia abandoned that philosophy starting with Pascal.
 

Magic Hate Ball

Senior member
Feb 2, 2017
290
250
96
Right, what AMD had going for Vega in the rumor mill, at least, is that Vega was to be, over and over, not Polaris. And while that remains true, it seems that the goodies on paper definitely are not translating to real performance right now. Many of those goodies that nVidia had been utilizing to great success, finally making its way to GCN. The primary thing that one could remain skeptical about would be GCN and its history, despite Vega being "a total revolution of GCN" or some such nonsense. By now, I think it is demonstrably clear that GCN really is a pure calculation design, despite whatever fancy graphics-oriented components are crammed in there, as it just isn't going to be as efficient in that specific task. And it wasn't until yesterday, in the earnings call, that the "new AMD" more or less officially announced that their strategy with RTG is server/big-data focused.

I think Vega was the last sliver of hopeful rumor-mongering where most anyone could reasonably expect AMD to return to direct competition with nVidia in the pure gaming sector, but that is all in the past now.

Not to say Vega will be terrible for what it is....depending on the price, of course...as we still don't know any hard numbers for RX with mature drivers, but the messaging with Vega FE and Vega RX up until now is so vastly different with what AMD was doing compared to Ryzen during the same pre-release time that I think it is all but certain AMD has no plans to compete in the high end or ultra high end here.

Yeah, I think AMD had to shoestring budget the whole thing, so Vega had to be a jack of all trades.

We're getting a compute card that can still do graphics. If developers start using the 16-bit operations as much as possible in code going forward, it may improve significantly over time.... but I'm not hopeful.
 
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Mar 11, 2004
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Wonder what Vega 20 is going to be. Navi is the 7nm GPU design now (Vega 20 seemed like it was planned to be a large GPGPU/compute focused card on 7nm, but seems like that has changed). I wonder if the idea isn't to start the road to mGPU Ryzen like GPU where they do an updated Vega that is smaller (i.e. goes to 2560-3xxx SPs, and keeps memory where it is, or would be great if they just add a third stack which should add some bandwidth), and so better suited for mGPU cards. Ditch the interposers and put 3 or 4 stacks of HBM between them. If nothing else, in games that don't do mGPU well, they could just leverage higher bandwidth and more memory from the shared pool.

Or maybe they're going to break the pro/compute/server chips from the consumer stuff like Nvidia did. Where the former gets larger chips with features/pieces tailored to those tasks. They could leverage Infinity Fabric on both.

AMD can make a profit per unit even at 300$ if they write off R&D expenses. It will be shit Polaris like margins, but they can do it. HBM2 and the die size aren't blocks for pricing.

If it's 699$, I imagine there's some reason for it.

Yeah. There's a price breakdown of Fiji and it cost ~$200 in parts cost (was less than $200 but figure with the HSF). Even if prices ballooned, it still should be able to break even on cost at $400 if not much much lower than that. Not that AMD would want to, but if they really want to sell cards they could (and then distribute R&D cost on APUs and pro/GPGPU). My guess is they'd rather sell them in higher margin pro markets until they can get costs under control and get software support better. I could see them putting prices high (getting mining buys, intentionally not wanting to get gamers til perf/$ is better), and then when they have to (impending Volta) or when it works better for them (maybe do package deals for like Black Friday or X-Mas, if they offer good prices with Ryzen bundles, especially say Threadripper - where the CPU margins can help offset the GPU; it would be an effective price drop on the CPUs as well without having to explicitly do that, and then they can have Ryzen+ or whatever the revision is, ready to keep sales going next year) they could offer deep discounts to get sales when production is better. And it'd give them time to do any minor rework or respins if that could help (although I'd expect that to be next year release, since I doubt there's any really minor things they could implement on the run).

Possibly, but its difficult to see what that would be based on what seems to be where Vega is at.

A cut down R9 Fury had a launch MSRP $100 less than the full-die, watercooled R9 Fury X. I don't see that changing to a $200 gap...

But I also am unsure about this rumored $699 price.

I potentially could see it, if the watercooled version is the only one they push to the full spec (and requires the AIO cooler to run it that way). If they offer a more efficient but lower performing air cooled one, that hits a much better perf/w (at the cost of outright performance), there would be a sizable performance difference plus the water cooler.

After the Hardocp test, I wonder if that isn't their plan. Make the case that they can offer similar power use at similar "smoothness" coupled with pushing the Freesync monitor price difference. Nvidia wouldn't be under a lot of pressure to drop price again on the 1080 if it has better absolute performance and much better perf/w, so it could let AMD get away with charging similar price with worse performance for a while. The watercooled version would get a switch, putting it in efficiency mode or performance mode.

Nano sized card at 250-300W? That's never going to happen.

I agree, but I could see them offering a Nano card (as it was popular).

There's supposed to be 2 chips, right? I could see them doing 4 cards. The top end pushed to the max watercooled one (that they only want diehard enthusiasts buying). A full chip but lower performing and clocked in a better efficiency spot air-cooled card (the one they want AIBs pushing to give it better coolers to handle it, and also higher price). Then a cutdown version of that card (that would offer closer to 1070 performance), and then below that a small Nano that is put at the clockspeed sweetspot, but that sits between 1070 and 580/1060 level in performance and price. Then later when they can bin more, the Nano and the cutdown card would just be Nano full chip cards, then AIBs offer the full sized custom cards, and then they let water cooled ones would be left based on stock (i.e. once they produce a certain amount that's it, if there's still some available they drop the price).
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
106
It's interesting that AMD is taking a multi-market approach with it's highest end while Nvidia abandoned that philosophy starting with Pascal.

Vega isnt more suitable to more markets than nVidia's Tegra X1 or X2 chips. And it slighty better than GP102 because of FP16. GP102 is a better chip overall with more memory support and higher performance within 250W.
 

EXCellR8

Diamond Member
Sep 1, 2010
3,982
839
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gah, some sources are suggesting that MSRP are going to start at 600 to 700 USD... which means any cards with aftermarket coolers are going to be at least 100 bucks more. hopefully we know soon enough, because I'm just not willing to spending that much I dont care how great HBM2 is.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
6,240
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Has anybody heard anything about the other Vega chip? There are two Polaris chips, and we were told there is two Vega chips. I would assume the 1080 competitor is the big Vega, but what about other Vega?
 

Elixer

Lifer
May 7, 2002
10,376
762
126
If AMD is indeed pricing this in the $600+ range, then it must be for the early adopters tax, or, they have serious yield issues with either Vega itself, or HBM2 or both, or they actually performed a miraculously fast re-spin of Vega, and it beats the 1080Ti (and before you get your hopes up on this last one, they wouldn't be doing smoke & mirrors "blind" tests if this was actually the case).

Right now, Hynix can charge whatever they want to AMD, and AMD would be forced to pass on the costs.
Samsung hasn't been announced as a supplier for HBM2 yet, so I doubt they are using anything from them.
 
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tvdang7

Platinum Member
Jun 4, 2005
2,242
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I thought one of the benefits of HBM2 memory was less space used up yet the card size is still big. Never understood why desktop graphics cards are so big yet the same card can be placed in a laptop that is much more compact.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,658
12,781
146
Yeah, I'm seeing $700 as a non-starter as well. I bought 1080ti's for $660 two months ago, and a 1080 for $530 eight months ago. They'd need to pull a serious rabbit out of their hat to make $700 in any way, shape, or form, reasonable.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,658
12,781
146
I thought one of the benefits of HBM2 memory was less space used up yet the card size is still big. Never understood why desktop graphics cards are so big yet the same card can be placed in a laptop that is much more compact.
A lot of that is to spread everything out so it doesn't turn into a molten mass of silicon and solder.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,820
29,571
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I thought one of the benefits of HBM2 memory was less space used up yet the card size is still big. Never understood why desktop graphics cards are so big yet the same card can be placed in a laptop that is much more compact.

the card is actually much smaller. The cooler is huge, though, because this thing is like a furnace. It looks like a normal-sized card in its category, but that's because there is a much larger cooler/card ratio here.
 

Crumpet

Senior member
Jan 15, 2017
745
539
96
Plenty of rumours bouncing around now from Finland, and Norway, and Spain, and South Africa, pointing at RX Vega being more in the region of $700-$900.

I hope RTG is delivering some super magical christmas fairyland extreme unicorn fantasy dream world deluxe driver or Vega might have $#!7 the bed.
 
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