Vega/Navi Rumors (Updated)

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krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
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Will there always be blower style as reference? I want that. And only 2 height.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
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It would be very ironic to tell someone to be prepared for Prey with Radeon Vega, only for AMD to not prepare Vega in time for Prey launch.

That being said...
Ironic? If you think making your customers livid is ironic than sure. Me? They're walking a fine line with me. Each product they release has a fatal flaw that renders it terrible for my applications.
Ryzen 7 doesn't have a decent smt implementation currently, who knows when it will be fixed? As a result, my, multi user 1080p gaming server upgrade is on halt since 3 cores (6 threads) should be enough for that level of gaming, but without smt I'm just left with 3 cores per rig with 2 cores left over for other low commitment server tasks.

Not ideal for me.

Now Vega if it's not released on time, relevant performance, etc. That's a massive blow to amd. They'll alienate a large amount of users of Ryzen 7 and Vega just aren't great at gaming and I won't e surprised if that's how it plays out.
 

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
1,651
473
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Ironic? If you think making your customers livid is ironic than sure. Me? They're walking a fine line with me. Each product they release has a fatal flaw that renders it terrible for my applications.
Ryzen 7 doesn't have a decent smt implementation currently, who knows when it will be fixed? As a result, my, multi user 1080p gaming server upgrade is on halt since 3 cores (6 threads) should be enough for that level of gaming, but without smt I'm just left with 3 cores per rig with 2 cores left over for other low commitment server tasks.

Not ideal for me.

Now Vega if it's not released on time, relevant performance, etc. That's a massive blow to amd. They'll alienate a large amount of users of Ryzen 7 and Vega just aren't great at gaming and I won't e surprised if that's how it plays out.

Utter BS. Ryzen's SMT in fact scales BETTER than HT. How could you not know that??
 

Bacon1

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2016
3,430
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Utter BS. Ryzen's SMT in fact scales BETTER than HT. How could you not know that??

Well there are games where it is broken, but a windows update should fix it as it works correctly in windows 7. But even with that, Ryzen looks very very nice. The 1500/1600 should make excellent cheap gaming cpus and 1700 makes a great productivity and gaming chip too.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
7,348
642
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Well there are games where it is broken, but a windows update should fix it as it works correctly in windows 7. But even with that, Ryzen looks very very nice. The 1500/1600 should make excellent cheap gaming cpus and 1700 makes a great productivity and gaming chip too.

I need to see not only that, but the Ryzen 7 benches with cores disabled. It just makes me so annoyed that no reviewers have done indepth testing of how the 4 and 6 cores would perform. Just disable the cores, AMD gave them a robust utility and they won't even use it. Only this
With Dota 2's OpenGL results we see it really doesn't scale with the increasing cores exposed... This isn't a surprise but was mainly for adding context to Dota 2's Vulkan performance:


With our Ryzen 7 1700 and 1800X benchmarks, we found very very low Vulkan performance with Dota 2... These CPU core scaling tests seem to indicate why.


With Metro Last Light Redux the OpenGL Linux gaming performance scaled up to four threads before flatlining.
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd-ryzen-cores&num=2

Great.... Please... tell me more hardware reviewers. Thanks for informing me about this product.

Just waiting for Vega now. Hopefully someone just does some actual CPU testing so I figure out if I actually need Ryzen 7 or not. And hopefully Ryzen 7 gets fixed in Windows 10. If Ryzen 7 scales the way it SHOULD with "Hyper threading" then I don't need an octocore. A weaker 7700k is perfectly fine.... So Ryzen 7 would literally be TWO 4770ks. That's two of the CPU I have right now. That's what I want. If Ryzen 7 can't make that happen, and Vega can't impress me, I don't want 1080Tis, but I'm not missing out on 2017 for gaming.

I'm still mindboggled that people think they should be looking at Ryzen 7 for gaming apaplications. Ryzen 5.... Ryzen 7 should only be for a person who longed for a 6900k every day. Not these people comparing 7700ks to Ryzen 7. They don't understand the point at all.
 

piesquared

Golden Member
Oct 16, 2006
1,651
473
136
Well there are games where it is broken, but a windows update should fix it as it works correctly in windows 7. But even with that, Ryzen looks very very nice. The 1500/1600 should make excellent cheap gaming cpus and 1700 makes a great productivity and gaming chip too.

There are games where it is broken on intel HT as well, its not an AMD SMT specific phenomenon. Plus as we can see it scales very well in other software, so its not SMT that needs fixing its the application that is using it needs to optimize for it.
 

Bacon1

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2016
3,430
1,018
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There are games where it is broken on intel HT as well, its not an AMD SMT specific phenomenon. Plus as we can see it scales very well in other software, so its not SMT that needs fixing its the application that is using it needs to optimize for it.

Its broken in more than it works in though, and HT usually works or the 7700k would fall behind the i5 7600 often. There is an issue with some games trying to use > 8 threads though, as the 6800/6900 often fall behind as well... but yeah hopefully it gets fixed up soon. Its great to have competition back in the CPU world, it has been stagnant there for way too long!

With both Vega and Ryzen this year AMD has got a lot of work to do!
 
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Valantar

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2014
1,792
508
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NV is in the place they are right now because they've spend years building a brand and much like Intel prior to Ryzen had a segment of the market all to themselves where there wasn't any direct competition. It will be only a year after the 1070 and 1080 launched that AMD will have any current generation competition.
Not a valid comparison. Intel hasn't had serious competition for 6-7 years. Nvidia and AMD have been neck-and-neck for years, with only the latest generation breaking that trend.

Why the hell would NV charge less than they can get away with when there's no one else with a competing product?
Because there's a limit to how much people are willing/able to pay. A $999 GPU wouldn't even come close to the sales of a $699 GPU.

If Nvidia is winning its because they've got a history of making good products and have built a good brand while continuing to engineer products that people want to buy.
That's demonstrably false. Nvidia has made some serious turds along the way (although it's been a while since they truly messed up), yet have kept >50% market share at all times based on their brand and marketing. Neither the FX5800 nor AMD beating them soundly with the Radeon 9000 series made serious dents in their market share.

In hindsight, the 780 Ti wasn't a very good GPU, but definitely hasn't left a stain on their reputation. On the other hand, both the 9XX and 10XX series have been fantastic, which combined with AMD stumbling (Nvidia timed their efficiency push perfectly) has lead to a huge lead for them.

Given that Nvidia has >10x the R&D budget of AMD, I'm amazed how well team red keeps up. I just hope they get out of the rut that the combination of lower efficiency and less clock speed scaling has left them in.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,530
30,729
146
Utter BS. Ryzen's SMT in fact scales BETTER than HT. How could you not know that??

I think he's just angry at the launch scenario: not quite ready. Or not, I could be wrong. FWIW, I understand that some people are legit underwhelmed or even angry that Ryzen launched with (entirely predictable) bugs. People just want things to work. Maybe he's new to the whole bleeding edge hardware thing and hasn't experienced every single brand new architecture launch up to this point, like most have. So, I can excuse that type of ignorance. Ryzen is obviously in a rather stellar performance state right now...with obvious MoBo supply issues and obnoxious Windows and BIOS bugs to be ironed out, but it's a solid performer in its advertised use scenarios.

At the same time, Vega is going to be a much harder sale if it releases with similar, or even worse non-optimized issues. 1080ti will be out and (Assuming no supply issues...thought that does seem to be the case?) saturating the market. nVidia has not been stagnant all these years, unlike Intel (yes, I understand there is a difference in physicals with actual hard limits when comparing modern CPU design vs GPU design), so the competition on the GPU end will be a wholly different beast with AMD.

I fully expect Vega to be a monster on paper--but with even more of the "Well, if only devs utilized the cool tricks and designs we have in our silicon, it would be that much better!" issues that you often have with AMD. I'm definitely going to be on board with Vega 11 or maybe even 10, but with the understanding that it will mostly likely underperform the 1080ti on launch, with a pile of performance left on the table.
 

Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,901
205
106
Vega or Navi rumors not found...these graphs don't belong here.

personally, i'm only missing a GPU to complete my build which will serve me for at least the next 4 years.
hearing that AMD is going to rebrand Polaris as 5XX is not encouraging. i was hoping to get a card May or June, if AMD don't have anything by then, i will search for a GTX1080 refreshed version.
 

crisium

Platinum Member
Aug 19, 2001
2,643
615
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I fully expect Vega to be a monster on paper--but with even more of the "Well, if only devs utilized the cool tricks and designs we have in our silicon, it would be that much better!" issues that you often have with AMD. I'm definitely going to be on board with Vega 11 or maybe even 10, but with the understanding that it will mostly likely underperform the 1080ti on launch, with a pile of performance left on the table.

My expectations as well. AMD has trouble with new architectures. GCN didn't find some legs until Never Settle drivers 9 or 10 months after launch. And since then there have been years of gradual relative performance increases, like watching the relationship of 290X to 780 Ti and 980 change. It may take a while for Vega to shine.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,307
7,321
136
Because there's a limit to how much people are willing/able to pay. A $999 GPU wouldn't even come close to the sales of a $699 GPU.

Thing is though, NVidia owned both of those segments of the market. If you didn't want to buy the $999 NVidia GPU, you could always buy their $699 GPU. Of course that doesn't really address the point, because they could sell the $999 GPU for $9,999 for sake of argument. However, someone ran the numbers and found that about the same number of people would buy at $999 as would at $899 (or possibly even $799) and the sales would only really drop off at $1,099. So if you know that sales won't change by more than a few percent, you charge $999 because it maximizes profit.

If there's competition in the market, then you have to consider what the competition is selling for. If AMD had a GPU comparable in performance, features, etc. to NVidia's $999 GPU selling for $799, then NVidia would lose sales unless their brand alone is worth $200 to consumers.

That's demonstrably false. Nvidia has made some serious turds along the way (although it's been a while since they truly messed up), yet have kept >50% market share at all times based on their brand and marketing.

That's the power of a good brand though. It can get you through a few missteps. They'd have to have a few turds in a row to really hurt their brand. Not every vehicle made by Ford or Chevy is great, but you've still got people who will always go to those brands first when buying a new car. Even people to do more product research still might defer to certain brands because of good past experience, etc.
 

Valantar

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2014
1,792
508
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Thing is though, NVidia owned both of those segments of the market. If you didn't want to buy the $999 NVidia GPU, you could always buy their $699 GPU. Of course that doesn't really address the point, because they could sell the $999 GPU for $9,999 for sake of argument. However, someone ran the numbers and found that about the same number of people would buy at $999 as would at $899 (or possibly even $799) and the sales would only really drop off at $1,099. So if you know that sales won't change by more than a few percent, you charge $999 because it maximizes profit.

If there's competition in the market, then you have to consider what the competition is selling for. If AMD had a GPU comparable in performance, features, etc. to NVidia's $999 GPU selling for $799, then NVidia would lose sales unless their brand alone is worth $200 to consumers.

That's the power of a good brand though. It can get you through a few missteps. They'd have to have a few turds in a row to really hurt their brand. Not every vehicle made by Ford or Chevy is great, but you've still got people who will always go to those brands first when buying a new car. Even people to do more product research still might defer to certain brands because of good past experience, etc.
Not to be annoying, but you're arguing against yourself. In one sentence you say Nvidia is leading due to their brand, in the other due to a history of making good products. While Nvidia has made many good products, they've made just as many bad ones as AMD. And even when they've had good products, AMD has beaten them from time to time (HD 4xxx series, 780 (Ti) vs. 290(X)). But due to huge marketing budgets and long-term successful brand building and PR, they're able to sweep failures under the carpet while bragging about their victories - with idolizing fans screaming for more. AMD, on the other hand, has consistently stumbled in terms of PR, and have suffered a lot of negative PR by being the (vastly weaker, budget-wise) underdog in both the GPU and CPU markets. While that narrative might be compelling when they do well, it acts as an excuse for fans of other brands to piss on them when they do badly. Which is why every single failure of AMDs is front-page news for years, while Nvidia's failures tend to go away quickly. You're right about one thing though: that's the power of a good brand. Unfortunately it has only a tangential (and definitely not a causal) relation to making good products.
 

Karnak

Senior member
Jan 5, 2017
400
773
136
Not sure about frequencies... final ones or will it change for a production cards?
Will change of course. Even Polaris has higher clock speeds and AMD stated that Vega (with those NCUs) is optimized for higher clock speeds.



The MI25 is a 12.5 TFLOPS Vega card so i think we'll see the same with a consumer Vega. For those 12.5 TFLOPS Vega needs >=1500MHz.
 

Valantar

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2014
1,792
508
136
Will change of course. Even Polaris has higher clock speeds and AMD stated that Vega (with those NCUs) is optimized for higher clock speeds.



The MI25 is a 12.5 TFLOPS Vega card so i think we'll see the same with a consumer Vega. For those 12.5 TFLOPS Vega needs >=1500MHz.
I'd love for that illustration to be representative rather than illustrative. 2x IPC and 2x clock speed? Yes please

On a more serious note, I don't doubt AMDs ability to produce a decent high-end GPU, I just hope they've finally figured out efficiency. If they don't Nvidia will keep their lead simply because cooling a >250W GPU is extremely difficult. More than 10-15% extra power for the same performance would put them at a dangerous deficit.
 

Valantar

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2014
1,792
508
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If I'm not mistaken, those lumpy things on the side of the monitors are Atomos Shogun Inferno 10-bit 4k 60Hz 4:2:2: ProRes video recorders. I guess we'll know where AMD/Bethesda/Arkane's fancy-looking Prey gameplay footage is coming from, when they start using it for promotions.

On a more serious note, I wonder why they use such high-end gear to record footage. I mean, the recorders are $1800 each, which means they are going all-in on recording quality when capturing this. They could have spent that money just on i7-6950Xs for the demo stations, saving quite a bit, and having more than enough cores to transcode screen captures on the fly. Even an 1800X should do that very well. OTOH, maybe Prey is really, really multi-threaded and they wanted it to perform as well as possible? I can't see any use for game capture footage of that quality outside of promotions, at least.
 

w3rd

Senior member
Mar 1, 2017
255
62
101
I predict Vega will come in a dual-chip version (RX Vega2 @ $999), featuring AMD's new fabric and be 80% faster than the 1080ti at 4k. At nearly the same power...!

Come back in July an applaud me.
 

french toast

Senior member
Feb 22, 2017
988
825
136
Im hoping for 225w and 15% slower than 1080ti for around 599$.
With its future looking uarch that gap would decrease to 10% within 1 year.

If we could get a 10% overclock as well, then that would be awesome.
 

french toast

Senior member
Feb 22, 2017
988
825
136
I predict Vega will come in a dual-chip version (RX Vega2 @ $899), featuring AMD's new fabric and be 80% faster than the 1080ti at 4k. At nearly the same power...!

Come back in July an applaud me.
Right, buyers would really enjoy firebreathing performance in the 3 supported games.
 

w3rd

Senior member
Mar 1, 2017
255
62
101
Right, buyers would really enjoy firebreathing performance in the 3 supported games.

Not sure if you understand. It is a single video card... surely you have heard of this. Perhaps you have not thought about how AMD might use their technology across their platforms..? You must be aware of AMD's APU and how the gpu works, now look beyond that, to a Vega + Vega on single chip.

dERP!
 

JDG1980

Golden Member
Jul 18, 2013
1,663
570
136
Right, buyers would really enjoy firebreathing performance in the 3 supported games.

Infinity Fabric (found in Vega and Ryzen) should, in theory, allow for memory coherency between the GPUs. With the proper drivers, two chips should be able to act as one big GPU and stay out of the AFR mess. Whether this will actually be ready for Vega or have to wait for Navi is the big question. It's definitely the future.
 
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