Vega/Navi Rumors (Updated)

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antihelten

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
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GPU renders a frame, here and now, and data is not in VRAM. It needs 20MB, how many miliseconds it has to get it, to keep 100FPS? What about 50MB? 100MB? What about DRAM latency, what a about GPU DMA controller latency, how does that impact bandwidth?

Again, where are you getting 50-100MB from? you keeping throwing out these numbers, but have so far provided zero evidence to back them up.

And regarding the other sources of latency, what about them? RAM and interface latency is generally in the nanosecond range and will thus have zero impact on this issue.

I can't believe i am discussing with a person who talks about latency of 50ms and 100FPS in same sentence. What's next? GPU with AMD patented time machine that knows what data to prefetch perfectly or relevation that AMD has long solved P=NP problem and is about to reveal GPU containing it.

I can't believe I'm talking to a person who doesn't understand the difference between frame latency and frame interval:

But maybe you think Nvidia is also crazy when they claim a 50ms total frame latency at 60FPS:


As you can see there is a 32ms gap from when the game engine thread finishes its work on the relevant frame until the GPU finishes it's work. If we say the GPU takes 10ms or so before it gets to the texturing step (since that is generally one of the later things in the graphics pipeline), then that gives you 25 ms to transmit your necessary data. Transmitting 5-20MB over PCIe would only takes about 0.5-1.5 ms, so over an order of magnitude less time than what is available. Obviously you also have system RAM, VRAM and PCIe packet latency on top of this, but as mentioned these should all be in the nanosecond range, and thus hardly relevant.

Who told you that? What games has that expert shipped? Can i expand your assumption to GPU with 1GB of VRAM? What about 256MB?

If you actually bothered reading my posts you would see that this came from Sebbbi from B3D, I even provided a link for you.

If you have a game where you previously need 2-3GB*, then yes you could expand the example to a 1GB GPU, or a game which only used 512-768MB of VRAM could be handled by 256MB VRAM.

Of course games today often use 6-8GB of VRAM with the current memory management system, and as such you would need about 3GB with the new system, 4GB to be safe and for a bit of future proofing.

This whole assumption that you can get what frame needs over PCIE during rendering it is crazy and does not pass common sense checks as GPU has half of terabyte of BW, and PCIE has 16GB before overhead.

Sigh, No one is saying that you can get everything the frame needs over PCIe during rendering, people are saying that you can get all of the new data needed over PCIe during rendering. Yes GPUs can have half a terabyte of BW, or ~5GB per frame at 100FPS, but you don't need 5GB of new data every single frame, your only need the aforementioned 5-20MB (since all of the other necessary data can be reused from the previous frame). Do you seriously think the GPU flushes out every single piece of data once it finishes a frame, thus requiring you to fetch all of the relevant data for the next frame anew?

The reason why GPU VRAM bandwidth is so high, is due to the things it has to access other than just asset data, things like render targets, buffers, and other temporary data.

Obviously you need to load in a bunch of stuff for the very first frame since this frame requires a lot more than just 5-20MB of new data (since all of the necessary data is new, when it's the first frame), and PCIe is of course a bottleneck here, which is of course also why games have loading times when you first start them up or move to a new level.

Anyway I am done with this thread. Some clear tendencies here: "attack the messenger", "learn about pointers", " but hUMA is supported on future desktop system, you are wrong and i will keep bringing this point and not take you seriuos", "these calculations have error of 10MB/frame, lets ignore orders of magnitude in bw/latency between PCIE/ local VRAM"

I like how you accuse people of "attacking the messenger", when in the previous paragraph you just did that yourself ("Who told you that? What games has that expert shipped?")

And how in the world am I wrong about hUMA, when I haven't even mentioned hUMA?

And what calculations are you talking about exactly, and why do they have errors of 10MB/frame? You keep on throwing out all of these claims and yet provide zero evidence for any of them.

And as I have explained to you repeatedly now, the order of magnitude difference in bandwidth/latency between PCIe/system memory and VRAM isn't relevant for this discussion (about HBCC), since they are used/accessed in completely different manners.
 

Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,761
4,666
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GPU renders a frame, here and now, and data is not in VRAM.
This is the primary misconception that leads your confusion about how the Vega memory architecture works. None of data that will be worked on, at particular time, will be "outside of VRAM". HBCC and HBM is here to deliver the data to the GPU when they are needed, as fast as possible, at lowest cost of power consumption possible. End of the story. You completely missed the point, with this simple logical fallacy you used as base of your understanding. Again, this is not to be rude, this is just understanding where the misconception was.

The idea is simple. Refresh the page of the data in the VRAM of the GPU, when the data has been executed. Previously, data was stored in VRAM, because GPUs had not enough horsepower to execute them at particular time. Vega on this front is different. Thats why everybody call it "streaming".

Saves power, saves cycles, saves wasted energy, only Raja Koduri knows what it is saving also!
 
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flash-gordon

Member
May 3, 2014
123
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Vega has 512GB/s data fabric and with HBCC, aren't you guys curious how AMD will do dual cards?
They might get 20TFLOPS inside 300W and get it to scale properly.
That's what I want to see. Will finally two GPUs work as one?

I guess that's the point with IF and it seems AMD will deliver similar integration on it's rumored X390/399 plataform.
 
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Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,761
4,666
136
If you will have GPUs in your system that will have HBCC, regardless if the system is based on Intel and AMD CPUs, it does not mean that you will have two GPUs acting as one, per se, however, it will be EXTREMELY close to this reality. Like I have said before, even if you have a system that is built from Raven Ridge APU and Vega GPU, HBCC in the APU will have direct access to the HBM2 memory on the GPU.

So you can draw conclusions from this, on your own. Biggest problem for dual GPU setups was memory syncing, and communication that would allow one GPU to know what is second one doing. It will be very close to this reality.
 
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Bacon1

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2016
3,430
1,018
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So with 80% bandwidth, that leaves you with 131MB per frame at 100 FPS. If only 60MB is available to asset data, then something else must be using the remainder. Again what is this other data, that uses up ~70MB per frame, you can't just handwave it and say "other data", and expect to be taken seriously, be specific please?

Not to mention that is assuming worst case -> the game can't pre-load any of that data. Most games end up loading up a whole level at once or other things which is why they allocate way more than they are actively using. So this assumption is based on worst case, where say the user does a 180 and you have to stream in all the textures from behind him that were unloaded due to VRAM limitations
 

imported_jjj

Senior member
Feb 14, 2009
660
430
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If you will have GPUs in your system that will have HBCC, regardless if the system is based on Intel and AMD CPUs, it does not mean that you will have two GPUs acting as one, per se, however, it will be EXTREMELY close to this reality. Like I have said before, even if you have a system that is built from Raven Ridge APU and Vega GPU, HBCC in the APU will have direct access to the HBM2 memory on the GPU.

So you can draw conclusions from this, on your own. Biggest problem for dual GPU setups was memory syncing, and communication that would allow one GPU to know what is second one doing. It will be very close to this reality.

In APU with HBM, the ability to access the DRAM is interesting, especially if they have quad chan- in server for now.
CF discrete and APU might see a benefit but not a big deal
However, I was talking 2 GPUs on one PCB not CF as CF is more or less dead. There were rumors that they have a dual Vega 10 and that might be the most interesting product, if they manage almost perfect scaling by properly using all 16GB of HBM.
 

jrphoenix

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,295
2
81
I am ready to buy / build a new computer. I am waiting for Ryzen 5 and possibly Vega. Would you guys wait for Vega or build with a 1080 now. My AMD 5800 hd is really chugging
 

DooKey

Golden Member
Nov 9, 2005
1,811
458
136
I am ready to buy / build a new computer. I am waiting for Ryzen 5 and possibly Vega. Would you guys wait for Vega or build with a 1080 now. My AMD 5800 hd is really chugging

I'm one of those buyers that says get what you need when you need it. What's your budget and which flavor of cpu are you going for? What kind of monitor and what resolution?
 

jrphoenix

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,295
2
81
I'm one of those buyers that says get what you need when you need it. What's your budget and which flavor of cpu are you going for? What kind of monitor and what resolution?

I'm doing a complete overhaul. I'm leaning towards the ryzen 5 1600x with Vega or a 1080. I'm looking at spending $2,000. Currently my 27" Samsung is 1080. I may need to get a higher resolution monitor too.
 

Bacon1

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2016
3,430
1,018
91
I'm doing a complete overhaul. I'm leaning towards the ryzen 5 1600x with Vega or a 1080. I'm looking at spending $2,000. Currently my 27" Samsung is 1080. I may need to get a higher resolution monitor too.

It sounds like you don't upgrade often, so really no reason to not wait a few weeks for more info on Vega. If nothing else it will drop the pricing on the 1080 so no reason to buy one now.

I mean its still 2 weeks til 1600x releases right? We'll have info on Vega around then anyway . If you are looking into a new monitor Vega + Freesync will be great.
 

jrphoenix

Golden Member
Feb 29, 2004
1,295
2
81
It sounds like you don't upgrade often, so really no reason to not wait a few weeks for more info on Vega. If nothing else it will drop the pricing on the 1080 so no reason to buy one now.

I mean its still 2 weeks til 1600x releases right? We'll have info on Vega around then anyway . If you are looking into a new monitor Vega + Freesync will be great.

True. Patience is a virtue. I'll wait for may / June and then go team red. .
 

Wall Street

Senior member
Mar 28, 2012
691
44
91
As you can see there is a 32ms gap from when the game engine thread finishes its work on the relevant frame until the GPU finishes it's work. If we say the GPU takes 10ms or so before it gets to the texturing step (since that is generally one of the later things in the graphics pipeline), then that gives you 25 ms to transmit your necessary data. Transmitting 5-20MB over PCIe would only takes about 0.5-1.5 ms, so over an order of magnitude less time than what is available. Obviously you also have system RAM, VRAM and PCIe packet latency on top of this, but as mentioned these should all be in the nanosecond range, and thus hardly relevant.

This theory doesn't work. If the game is rendering at 60 FPS, you can't send data before the 17 ms (rounded from 16 2/3?) GPU stage begins because otherwise the new texture data would be reaching the GPU during the rendering process of the previous frame, whose data cannot yet be evicted.
 

Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,005
6,451
136
If you double or triple buffer you can work on new frames before the old one is finished or is being displayed. I think I read about some tech where NVidia GPUs can do some interpolation if the frame rate dips too low where it can blend frames to make it appear more smooth, so there are other tricks out there as well.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,806
29,557
146
True. Patience is a virtue. I'll wait for may / June and then go team red. .

holy crap you're more patient than I am, haha. I did push my 5850 for about 5 years, though. Hell of a card. But yeah, news/release is so soon, there is probably no reason you shouldn't be able to wait to at least get an idea of performance.

I suspect that the surprisingly tasty price of the 1080ti is something of a harbinger for Vega performance. We'll see, though.

FYI: Ryzen 1700 was on sale for $250 a few days ago, which I totally missed; but if I were you, I'd keep an eye out on daily deals like that. I'm also in the 1600X/Vega hunt, but I wouldn't pass up an opportunity for a 1700 at that price if it comes around again, even if I'm still 3+ months out from actually finishing a build.
 
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antihelten

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,764
274
126
This theory doesn't work. If the game is rendering at 60 FPS, you can't send data before the 17 ms (rounded from 16 2/3?) GPU stage begins because otherwise the new texture data would be reaching the GPU during the rendering process of the previous frame, whose data cannot yet be evicted.

Of course it works. Obviously you can't evict data that the GPU is going to be accessing during rendering of the previous frame, but as has been repeated countless times by now in this thread, only a fraction of the data stored in VRAM is actually used for a given frame, so there is tons of unused data just sitting there that can be safely evicted to make room for the necessary data for the next frame.

That is the whole point of HBCC (or a similar software implementation), i.e. get rid of all the unused data, which means that you can easily get by with only 4-8GB of VRAM, (or just 2GB as shown in AMD's Deus Ex demo), and then stream in the extra data needed for the next frame as necessary.
 
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Mopetar

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2011
8,005
6,451
136
Nintendo somehow managed to make one of the best open-world games ever on literally a tablet SoC (Tegra X1) with 4GB of shared RAM at far lower bandwidth than even entry-level GPUs. Granted, it runs at 900p max, but even 5-6x the resources for 4K would still be within reach of a modern midrange PC card. Breath of the Wild demonstrates just how terribly optimized most PC AAA titles really are.

Haven't played it yet, but have heard good things. However, it's not exactly a graphical powerhouse. Take a look at the terrain, which largely has the same texture splattered all over it and compare it to other AAA games that are using all kinds of different texture maps and scenery.

Good graphics aren't necessary for a good game, and visual style and aesthetics often go just as far as pure pixels and polygons, but I don't think you can equate the draw conclusions about other games. Imagine how good the game would like if the Switch had a better SoC.

Personally I think Nintendo might have been better served waiting just a little longer or going after some bleeding edge technology where they could get a small chip in the Switch itself, but have the dock contain another chip and use some DX12-like capabilities to treat it as a single chip and give better graphics when docked. Then you get the same mobile capabilities, while also being able to get more detailed graphics when hooked up to a 1080p TV instead of displaying on a 720p screen.

I think there were rumors about Navi having those capabilities to allow for an easier time manufacturing powerful GPUs on small dies and connecting everything on an interpose.
 
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