Vega/Navi Rumors (Updated)

[tajoh111]

Ah so according to Raja this is the same team that brought Polaris.. So I wonder if Navi will be from the stateside team that built Hawaii/Fiji?

The stateside branch has been disbanded. It was a cost cutting measure. Remember those waves of layoffs at AMD over the years? AMD graphic division was a big target of those layoffs. AMD has moved it's graphic team to shanghai.

Why? Looking at glassdoor, the engineers there only make 20-25k or so annually at AMD Shanghai so it is a huge amount of savings.

It was necessary considering AMD needed to focus on their CPU division and cuts had to come from somewhere.

 

[Stuka87]

It should be noted that just because the engineers are Chinese does not immediately mean that they are poor engineers. LOT of good engineers over there. They just tend to be instructed to engineer things to be cheap to manufacture.

 

[Zstream]

The stateside branch has been disbanded. It was a cost cutting measure. Remember those waves of layoffs at AMD over the years? AMD graphic division was a big target of those layoffs. AMD has moved it's graphic team to shanghai.

Why? Looking at glassdoor, the engineers there only make 20-25k or so annually at AMD Shanghai so it is a huge amount of savings.

It was necessary considering AMD needed to focus on their CPU division and cuts had to come from somewhere.

Ugh, well now I know the GPU side will be crappy for the next few years. I don't think they had an option due to them nearly going bankrupt

 

[Arachnotronic]

It should be noted that just because the engineers are Chinese does not immediately mean that they are poor engineers. LOT of good engineers over there. They just tend to be instructed to engineer things to be cheap to manufacture.

Good != highly paid. There is a reason that when companies want to cut costs, they move R&D to "lower cost regions."

 

[Zstream]

Good != highly paid. There is a reason that when companies want to cut costs, they move R&D to "lower cost regions."

Doesn't matter. That team existed prior and was known for power hog GPU's that performed poorly.

 

[Arachnotronic]

Doesn't matter. That team existed prior and was known for power hog GPU's that performed poorly.

The team in China is just the physical implementation team -- this isn't the uArch team.

The fact that Vega looks like an inefficient device is probably much more due to Vega's underlying uArch being inefficient rather than a failure on the part of the physical design team.

 

[Elixer]

This guy is supposed to be live streaming at the PDXLAN show https://www.twitch.tv/elmnator

I got no idea if they will let him close to the Vega RX display they got there.

Here is what AMD is showing:

 

[tviceman]

Yah it's only going toe to toe with Nvidia's $6000 card in the workloads it was really designed for.

http://www.tomshardware.de/vega-ben...ngsaufnahme-gaming,testberichte-242375-6.html

What does that have to do with gaming and the fact that AMD is downplaying Vega's gaming performance?

 

[AtenRa]

What does that have to do with gaming and the fact that AMD is downplaying Vega's gaming performance?

And what you have said before has anything to do with RX VEGA Gaming performance ??

 

[IllogicalGlory]

And what you have said before has anything to do with RX VEGA Gaming performance ??

The event from the 18th was RX Vega; they showed off its gaming performance, supposedly indistinguishable from a 1080. It's not even clear which demo system had Vega in it.

That feels like downplaying to me. If they really wanted to emphasize its gaming performance, it would have an FPS counter and would ideally be compared to a 1080 Ti. We're coming up on the full reveal, they've already given us some FPS numbers from those early demos and the silicon is already in the hands of reviewers (FE); if there is a big increase coming with RX Vega, these events are where it should be shown off.

 

[french toast]

no, they provided the press with samples that had like 40-50% lower performance than the final product - read anandtech's review

OK I will, sounds interesting..
So on the last media day at SIGGRAPH, raja is going to be up on stage next to a water fountain and the usual 2 system setup, he introduces himself and signals the tech team to dim the lights and some edgy mood music, he then - incredibly- begins to tread water into the middle of the fountain to be met with Lisa su's hand, rising and spinning out of the water -lady of lake like- holding a USB stick- containing the magic drivers- which when inserted and loaded into Vega system increases performance by 50℅ and dropping power by 20℅- laying waste to 1080ti.
Cue Pandemonium in the audience and much fanfair.

Er ok, Granted I got all romantic there, but it's about as believable

 

[Vesku]

It should be noted that just because the engineers are Chinese does not immediately mean that they are poor engineers. LOT of good engineers over there. They just tend to be instructed to engineer things to be cheap to manufacture.

It's the loss of institutional knowledge and experience we are seeing with the new, cheaper teams in China and India. Let's hope AMD kept some top talent for Navi development. Without major design gains in efficiency AMD will have issues providing good SoCs in both consumer and B2B markets.

Hopefully gaming Vega is at least an improved stepping compared to the prosumer version. I'm curious whether AMD will just manufacture Vega at a low volume and limp along with Polaris until the next process shrink.

 

[Qwertilot]

That - limping along with Polaris - is the other place where Vega coming out like this might well hurt AMD. They're going to need stop gap solutions when Volta comes out, and cut Vega could have been a decent stall. Don't think that'll work though, especially given its power consumption.

 

[AtenRa]

The event from the 18th was RX Vega; they showed off its gaming performance, supposedly indistinguishable from a 1080. It's not even clear which demo system had Vega in it.

That feels like downplaying to me. If they really wanted to emphasize its gaming performance, it would have an FPS counter and would ideally be compared to a 1080 Ti. We're coming up on the full reveal, they've already given us some FPS numbers from those early demos and the silicon is already in the hands of reviewers (FE); if there is a big increase coming with RX Vega, these events are where it should be shown off.

I really dont see how you know the performance if you cannot distinguish what system had which card. You will not be able to distinguish the performance difference only by playing a game, if one system was producing for example 130fps and the other 160fps.

 

[tviceman]

I really dont see how you know the performance if you cannot distinguish what system had which card. You will not be able to distinguish the performance difference only by playing a game, if one system was producing for example 130fps and the other 160fps.

If it smells like a fart and sounds like a fart.... deny deny deny!

 

[OatisCampbell]

I really dont see how you know the performance if you cannot distinguish what system had which card. You will not be able to distinguish the performance difference only by playing a game, if one system was producing for example 130fps and the other 160fps.

I think what they're saying is that if the Vega had the "gaming goods" they would have made the demo with frame counters on to show its superiority, or used a 1080Ti to show its parity.

To show a Vega compared to a 1080 with the counters off can only be seen as a "We're pretty equivalent to a 1080" demo.

These events are a best case scenario, a chance for the company to show the game and settings that show their product in their best light.

They are smart focusing on the $300 price difference in rigs and similar experience angle, because that is the real message with Vega IMO. The only problem with that message is that for two generations now the FreeSync savings come with longer waits for new cards, and second tier performance only.

So if you don't like to update as often, and don't care about top tier that works but otherwise you have to pay the GSync tax.

 

[AtenRa]

If it smells like a fart and sounds like a fart.... deny deny deny!

There is no deny of farts and smells until we see real numbers

 

[Qwertilot]

Realistically it isn't even 'we're pretty equivalent' - if they were 5-10% ahead they'd surely(?!!?) give numbers. So......
(Although I don't have enough confidence in AMD's marketing to be assertive about this!).

Are they looking certain of getting ahead of the best aftermarkets 980ti's? It'd be a little bit depressing if they don't manage that.

 

[AtenRa]

I think what they're saying is that if the Vega had the "gaming goods" they would have made the demo with frame counters on to show its superiority, or used a 1080Ti to show its parity.

To show a Vega compared to a 1080 with the counters off can only be seen as a "We're pretty equivalent to a 1080" demo.

These events are a best case scenario, a chance for the company to show the game and settings that show their product in their best light.

Since they havent shown any performance of RX VEGA, this is not a case of best case scenario.

I dont know RX VEGA performance, what im saying is that people should wait until real numbers of actual products come out and then make any comments about the RX VEGA performance.

If RX VEGA is a 450-500mm2 die and has GTX1080 (GP104) equivalent performance, then i will be the first to say its the worst design of the last 5-6 years.
But until we get real numbers i will not comment about RX VEGAs performance.

 

[railven]

Since they havent shown any performance of RX VEGA, this is not a case of best case scenario.

I dont know RX VEGA performance, what im saying is that people should wait until real numbers of actual products come out and then make any comments about the RX VEGA performance.

If RX VEGA is a 450-500mm2 die and has GTX1080 (GP104) equivalent performance, then i will be the first to say its the worst design of the last 5-6 years.
But until we get real numbers i will not comment about RX VEGAs performance.

Got to stop with rather vague and misleading statements. AMD has shown RX Vega's performance a couple of times. Is it quantifiable? Not, but it's still performance they've demonstrated multiple times. They've made the comparison themselves. When someone over at AMD said something along the lines of "it looks good against Titan Xp" people took that as an example of the performance it is capable (and actually ran with it).

We've seen RX Vega performance. We just need the hard numbers to line it up to AMD's own current live demonstrations.

The fact that what we've seen of RX Vega's performance is lackluster is on AMD themselves, since they're the ones that trotted it out and said "look."

 

[Elixer]

True, with these 'tour' stops, they are only showing one game of their choice, and then are telling people you can't tell the difference... is cherry picking at its finest.

At PDXLAN, they told everyone full specs will be announced on July 30th.
They won't say when it will be shipped.
They won't say what is the hardware at all, no CPU info, no monitor info, nadda.

So, with 8 days left, no real performance figures to speak of, no OEM leaks (box/cards) so far, and just marketing gimmicks galore (not only this test, but all the social media crap they are putting out)... One just has to shake their head.

 

[Veradun]

So, with 8 days left, no real performance figures to speak of, no OEM leaks (box/cards) so far, and just marketing gimmicks galore (not only this test, but all the social media crap they are putting out)... One just has to shake their head.

As I said multiple times on this and other threads at SIGGRAPH you'll have a paper launch. The same you got for Polaris and Pascal. A month later cards will be on shelves and e-shelves.

 

[happyflow]

Ok we know they showed a VEGA RX system against NVIDIA - who says this was a 1080 heavy-weight fight? Polaris 580 is positioned against 1060, they could have demoed SMALL VEGA as 1070 competitor, or a 1080 competitor with 1070 price tag. We'll see.

 

[IllogicalGlory]

Ok we know they showed a VEGA RX system against NVIDIA - who says this was a 1080 heavy-weight fight? Polaris 580 is positioned against 1060, they could have demoed SMALL VEGA as 1070 competitor, or a 1080 competitor with 1070 price tag. We'll see.

If any of the detective work done by r/AMD holds weight, the price difference exists between the monitors only. As for small Vega, I'm kind of wondering whether it exists at all. I don't think it's coming too soon if it does. I don't think we've heard a single thing about ever since the original slides showing top Vega targeting 12TFLOPS showed a smaller Vega and where it would be positioned. That was about a year ago.

 

[linkgoron]

I thought that it was clear that small Vega was still far away when AMD released the Rx480 refresh as 580 instead of 570.