Vega/Navi Rumors (Updated)

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NostaSeronx

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Sep 18, 2011
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Bulldozer all over where a thuban shrink would have offered better perfromance at lower wattage and that was actually confirmed with the APU (llano) that contained shrinked STARS cores.
Polaris and Vega are both GCN3 shrinks w/ added instructions and shrink optimizations.

The issue is that AMD needed to release something like Bulldozer, a bottom-up redesign in the GPU market. Which would have offered better performance at a lower wattage, than implementing a top-bottom shrinked architecture.

Also, Bulldozer -> Excavator is a successor to K8/00h, not K10/10h-12h. 1xFP80/1xFP64 FMACs in crossbar is not a full FP128 FMAC. So, to compare Bulldozer-Excavator to Stars which had a full FP128 datapath is silly. Especially, when we never got the K9/K10 successor version of Bulldozer. (2005/2006 architecture is still relevant! Don't be shocked to know K9/K10 versions had four ALUs, three AGUs per core, and four FPUs(implied to all be FMACs) shared. While, consuming less energy than the 90-nm/65-nm prototype that would be ported down to 32-nm.)

A Zen like deployment in the GPU market doesn't make sense, since only CMT would work in GPUs.

What is important to realize after this post is that AMD before Raja came back... was going to a do x86-based(CISC AMD64 with reworked GPU-focused ISA) GPU design. (Some of that is in Vega because SIMD is easy to do.)
 
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Mar 11, 2004
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Well the 390/390x and Fury X was the first glance at AMDs downward spiral. Remember that the 390x was pretty much just a rebranded 290x with more vram and not reference card. In fact AIB 290x perform the same as 390X and uses the same power. The 290/290x (hawaii) was a pretty good card as it was competitive in performance and price. Yes, it used a lot of power but at least it could keep up and was cheap. The reference card and mining kind of destroyed it but for the patient people it offered best performance/$ (those sub $250 deals) that only polaris manged to beat barley several years later. 390x was already a huge fail IMHO as it was a rebrand and price was raised.

What is wrong with Vega? It is less efficient than Fiji while going from 28nm planar to 14 nm finfet. I actually call that a huge achievement to regress in efficiency while doing a 1.5 node jump. That's why vega is fail.

I don't know if its the political climate, people's obsession with apocalyptic/zombie stories or what, but holy carp, there's a lot of people that seem to be doomsday prophets.

Not sure how you can even make this argument since wasn't most of the 2x0 lineup a rebrand? The 290/X was one of the few actual new chips. The 390 was hardly the "first glance" of AMD doing that. What you're ignoring is that even with the increased price, due to them doing only AIB and the progress of performance with GCN, the performance was good enough that lots of sites recommended them, even up against the 980/970, because they were competitive (look at all the people talking about how the 780/Ti was better than the 290/X at launch, and how that changed, and the 290/X consistently outperform the 970/980 these days).

The 290X was not cheap. It was $550 MSRP. And miners had that pushed up to $800+. It only became cheap after miners dumped them (which we've repeatedly been told is the worst thing ever for AMD, the GPU market, but most of all the people that "couldn't buy even when I had the money to", many of which didn't lose out either buying 970/980, or like you said, buying cheap 290/X when they got dumped for ridiculously cheap prices).

Fiji clearly was the focus of their resources. It was hardly the disaster people act like it is either. Not saying it was stupendous, but most of the stuff people are saying about Vega was said about Fury (early on, it was often more in line with the 980, while consuming more power, ~33% more in Crysis 3 in the AT review; the Fury Nano offered similar perf/w and close to the performance of the 980, but was also more expensive). Fiji improved with time and has held up quite well. Vega has bigger differences than Fiji did. I'd guess much of Fiji's progress was dealing with the 4GB memory constraints, which Vega won't have to deal with as much, but I'd guess that the SRAM/cache changes and change to the bus will require some. There's something weird about HBM2 compared to HBM1, look at HBM2 chips, they're like twice as wide, so either each stack is more wide and less tall, or they've got two stacks side by side inside of the overall package. Not to mention the change to memory addressing that HBC is bringing, will require as much if not more work. And there's other changes, that absolutely might not necessarily provide gaming benefits, but look at even Packed Math where people are saying its an enterprise feature, when game developers are even talking it up - granted its part of AMD marketing, but it absolutely means that has potential for gaming benefits; many of the compute stuff that AMD added with GCN that was allegedly for enterprise/compute has turned out to have gaming benefits as well.

AMD is betting big on Infinity Fabric, I have a hunch that plenty of the extra transistors over Fiji went towards adding that to Vega. It might be something that will only benefit certain Vega products (likely the server/compute cards), but it is absolutely a feature likely worth AMD adding even if it hinders their low margin consumer gaming cards.

Vega obviously isn't executed as well as Nvidia is doing with Pascal, but claiming its a total failure is ridiculous. Your "evidence" of it being a total fail is based on two (possibly 3 if you consider Intel, but look at how much they've failed at GPU like complexity) companies that are even trying to make chips as complex as this. There's literally billions of opportunities for the chips to be screwed up. Basing it off your specific wants is fine (so sure it not offering similar outright performance, perf/w, and/or perf/$ in average games is fine), but some of you are saying that every single thing about this chips is a complete disaster that spells the end of AMD's GPUs.

So, once again, we'll see exactly where it ends up at launch. It could definitely be a dud (seems to be for gaming), but people acting like this is the end of AMD GPU, that they need to completely change everything, that it won't improve in performance, etc, all remains to be seen. We have fairly recent history that disputes a lot of the doom and gloom about GCN and AMD's architecture, that people just dismiss. Some have been doing this for years.

If AMD bothers you that much then just buy Nvidia's very solid offerings and save us the doomsday prophecies or jilted lover syndrome or whatever is causing this rampant bitterness.
 

Olikan

Platinum Member
Sep 23, 2011
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i'm under the impression the problem of the bad eficiency is due the manufacturing...
-Vega got delayed hard, since early ES chips
-Nvidia\TSMC's can reach 2.0Ghz using WAY lower voltage
-Ryzen hit's a wall at 4Ghz


if we see some impressive eficiency during underclocks, this might be the reason
 

tviceman

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Mar 25, 2008
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i'm under the impression the problem of the bad eficiency is due the manufacturing...
-Vega got delayed hard, since early ES chips
-Nvidia\TSMC's can reach 2.0Ghz using WAY lower voltage
-Ryzen hit's a wall at 4Ghz


if we see some impressive eficiency during underclocks, this might be the reason

Then, based on your theory of manufacturing issues, how do you explain that GM107, not manufactured on TSMC, also reaches 2.0ghz+ AND maintains the same efficiency as the rest of Pascal?
 
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Rannar

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Aug 12, 2015
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Then, based on your theory of manufacturing issues, how do you explain that GM107, not manufactured on TSMC, also reaches 2.0ghz+ AND maintains the same efficiency as the rest of Pascal?

according to most reviewers it clocks a bit lower than TSMC produced chips even with 6 pin PEG connector so GF 14nm LPP probably has steeper power/ performance curve.
 
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tviceman

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according to most reviewers it clocks a bit lower than TSMC produced chips even with 6 pin PEG connector so GF 14nm LPP probably has steeper power/ performance curve.

We're talking, what, 25-50mhz here? https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Palit/GeForce_GTX_1050_Ti_KalmX/33.html That is a passive cooled card hitting 2025mhz. It's clocking 2% lower than heavily cooled GTX 1080's and GTX 1070's. You're splitting some seriously small hairs. And FWIW GM107 didn't clock as high as the rest of Maxwell, either.

I still maintain that manufacturing has very little to do with Vega (or Ryzen's) clock walls.
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
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That *is* what Navi is supposed to be. The first GPU that Raja has total control over.

If it will really turn out that way, nobody except AMD knows. If it is indeed going to launch in '18, (and on the same node as Vega) then they already had first test silicon back most likely.

Really. I think this is an extremely weak excuse, when he has been leading them for 4.5 years. Even if there were some preliminary design notes, there was plenty of time to review them and get Vega back on track.
 

CatMerc

Golden Member
Jul 16, 2016
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AMD seems to think memory bandwidth isn't a bottleneck with RX Vega, or else you'd expect the Draw Stream Binning Rasterizer to show greater gains. Assuming this is true, it would seem to highlight the low ROP count and especially the front end (only 4 shader engines) as the likely remaining bottlenecks in the Vega 10 design.

It will be interesting to see, with Raven Ridge, how DSBR performs in a much more bandwidth-constrained situation. Will it provide substantial clock-for-clock improvements in IGPU over Bristol Ridge (GCN 1.2) or not?
ROPs aren't the problem either. If they were, increasing resolution wouldn't show relative gains like Fury X or R9 390 does.
 

caswow

Senior member
Sep 18, 2013
525
136
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Really. I think this is an extremely weak excuse, when he has been leading them for 4.5 years. Even if there were some preliminary design notes, there was plenty of time to review them and get Vega back on track.

are you in the industry or why do you pretend to know even knowing something about the process of developing any silicon?
 

parvadomus

Senior member
Dec 11, 2012
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The bottleneck has to be memory bandwidth, they just havent figured out how achieve Nvidia's bandwidth efficiency. Otherwise, I really dont know what happened.
 

Stuka87

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2010
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The bottleneck has to be memory bandwidth, they just havent figured out how achieve Nvidia's bandwidth efficiency. Otherwise, I really dont know what happened.

The whole purpose of the DCC is to make bandwidth less of an issue. But if AMD's benchmarks did indeed have DCC enabled, we are not seeing much in the way of gains. Which would mean bandwidth is not an issue.
 

Veradun

Senior member
Jul 29, 2016
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Just a minor point, but I am pretty sure you quoted someone else, and attached my name to it.

Well, what I was saying is that I agree the bigger Polaris you are mentioning would have probably brought the same gaming performance, but it seems clear they wanted to address more than that (gaming), something Polaris couldn't have accomplished.
 

raghu78

Diamond Member
Aug 23, 2012
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We're talking, what, 25-50mhz here? https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Palit/GeForce_GTX_1050_Ti_KalmX/33.html That is a passive cooled card hitting 2025mhz. It's clocking 2% lower than heavily cooled GTX 1080's and GTX 1070's. You're splitting some seriously small hairs. And FWIW GM107 didn't clock as high as the rest of Maxwell, either.

I still maintain that manufacturing has very little to do with Vega (or Ryzen's) clock walls.
I agree that process node has little to do with Vega or Polaris clock limits being lower than Pascal. But for Ryzen its a real issue. 14LPP was not designed for 4+ Ghz.

https://www.globalfoundries.com/sites/default/files/product-briefs/product-brief-14lpp.pdf

High Performance > 3GHz operation Server, Data Center, ASICs . Twin-well CMOS bulk FinFET (4 Core device Vt’s)
Stilt has shown Ryzen requires a non linear increase in voltage to hit clocks above 3.3-3.4 Ghz. GF has a higher performance 14nm node (most likely GF 14 HPP) which AMD refers to as 14nm+ which will drive the 2018 product stack.

GF 7LP is designed for 5 Ghz.

https://www.globalfoundries.com/sites/default/files/product-briefs/7lp-product-brief.pdf

High Performance 5GHz operation Server, Data Center, ASICs . Twin-well CMOS bulk FinFET 5 Core device Vt’s
 
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PeterScott

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Jul 7, 2017
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Well, what I was saying is that I agree the bigger Polaris you are mentioning would have probably brought the same gaming performance, but it seems clear they wanted to address more than that (gaming), something Polaris couldn't have accomplished.


Again. That wasn't me that said that. That was "Cookie Monster".
 

sirmo

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2011
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What is wrong with Vega? It is less efficient than Fiji while going from 28nm planar to 14 nm finfet. I actually call that a huge achievement to regress in efficiency while doing a 1.5 node jump. That's why vega is fail.
Not sure how it's less efficient. Vega RX 64 is a 295 watt TDP card. Fury X was 275 watt. So Vega RX 64 uses 7% more power (if we go by TDP) but offers 20-35% more performance depending on resolution.

This means Vega RX is more efficient not less.
 

tviceman

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Mar 25, 2008
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I agree that process node has little to do with Vega or Polaris clock limits being lower than Pascal. But for Ryzen its a real issue. 14LPP was not designed for 4+ Ghz.

https://www.globalfoundries.com/sites/default/files/product-briefs/product-brief-14lpp.pdf

High Performance 7.5T Automotive Ultra Low Power Analog RF > 3GHz operation Server, Data Center, ASICs . Twin-well CMOS bulk FinFET (4 Core device Vt’s)
Stilt has shown Ryzen requires a non linear increase in voltage to hit clocks above 3.3-3.4 Ghz. GF has a higher performance 14nm node (most likely GF 14 HPP) which AMD refers to as 14nm+ which will drive the 2018 product stack.

GF 7LP is designed for 5 Ghz.

https://www.globalfoundries.com/sites/default/files/product-briefs/7lp-product-brief.pdf

High Performance 5GHz operation Server, Data Center, ASICs . Twin-well CMOS bulk FinFET 5 Core device Vt’s

Good read, thanks for pointing this out.
 

PeterScott

Platinum Member
Jul 7, 2017
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Not sure how it's less efficient. Vega RX 64 is a 295 watt TDP card. Fury X was 275 watt. So Vega RX 64 uses 7% more power (if we go by TDP) but offers 20-35% more performance depending on resolution.

This means Vega RX is more efficient not less.

But efficiency has regressed in it's relative competitive position.

I think a big crux of the Vega letdown was endless hype creating expectations of a comeback for Vega, a shrinking of the gap between AMD and NVidia, and finding out that gap has instead grown larger.

If you look at it from any metric, and compare the relative position of:

Fury X vs 980/980Ti
To
Vega RX vs 1080/1080Ti

The gap has worsened in every metric. 2 years later, after endless hype from AMD, everything is in a worse relative position than it was for Fury X. Performance is relatively worse, die size is relatively worse, Power usage is relatively worse, time to market is worse, every metric is worse across the board.

Everything is relatively worse than it was for the Fury X launch, which in itself was no great leap.

In some ways I think it would have been better if AMD never mentioned/delivered Vega as a gaming card. I think if it hadn't been for mining propping up prices, it might not have feasible to deliver it against a $400 1080/$300 1070.
 
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beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
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Not sure how it's less efficient. Vega RX 64 is a 295 watt TDP card. Fury X was 275 watt. So Vega RX 64 uses 7% more power (if we go by TDP) but offers 20-35% more performance depending on resolution.

This means Vega RX is more efficient not less.

Not only power also transistor count / die size. All in all the 1.5 node jump is barley visible in vega vs fiji. For gaming.
 

ozzy702

Golden Member
Nov 1, 2011
1,151
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But efficiency has regressed in it's relative competitive position.

I think a big crux of the Vega letdown was endless hype creating expectations of a comeback for Vega, a shrinking of the gap between AMD and NVidia, and finding out that gap has instead grown larger.

If you look at it from any metric, and compare the relative position of:

Fury X vs 980/980Ti
To
Vega RX vs 1080/1080Ti

The gap has worsened in every metric. 2 years later, after endless hype from AMD, everything is in a worse relative position than it was for Fury X. Performance is relatively worse, die size is relatively worse, Power usage is relatively worse, time to market is worse, every metric is worse across the board.

Everything is relatively worse than it was for the Fury X launch, which in itself was no great leap.

All this an by the time AIB cards are actually available Volta will be a month or two off with significant gains. NVIDIA could potentially match Vega with a single 8pin GPU... that's really sad.
 

n0x1ous

Platinum Member
Sep 9, 2010
2,572
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All this an by the time AIB cards are actually available Volta will be a month or two off with significant gains. NVIDIA could potentially match Vega with a single 8pin GPU... that's really sad.

They already do. 1080FE has 1 - 8 pin
 
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