Vegetarians

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: Leper Messiah
there was a study that showed that lettiuce actually has stimuli when it is harvested. So plants do feel pain.

Me? I don't really care. Plants, animals, they're all the same. an animal would have no problem eating my corpse, so why should I have a problem with eating its?

but would you eat a human corpse? inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Leper Messiah]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: Leper Messiah
there was a study that showed that lettiuce actually has stimuli when it is harvested. So plants do feel pain.

Me? I don't really care. Plants, animals, they're all the same. an animal would have no problem eating my corpse, so why should I have a problem with eating its?

but would you eat a human corpse? inquiring minds want to know.

If it was nessicary to my surivival, then yes. Otherwise, prolly not.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: aidanjm

Originally posted by: Siddhartha

Originally posted by: Wnh5001
Ok my question is why is it ok for you vegetarians to only kill and eat plants, but why is it wrong for us carnivores to eat meat? both are living things.

I was a vegetarian for a while for ethical rasons. Then I asked myself the same question. I decided that, no it is not more okay to kill plants because they can not get up and move away and the fact they do not have a face.

Do plants suffer?

I have no idea. But plants develop defense mechanisms againt being eaten. Which indicates to me that if they had a choice they would rather not be someone's food source.

 

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: Leper Messiah

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: Leper Messiah
there was a study that showed that lettiuce actually has stimuli when it is harvested. So plants do feel pain.

Me? I don't really care. Plants, animals, they're all the same. an animal would have no problem eating my corpse, so why should I have a problem with eating its?

but would you eat a human corpse? inquiring minds want to know.

If it was nessicary to my surivival, then yes. Otherwise, prolly not.

with or without hot sauce?

 

[mrSHEiK124]

Because, the majority of vegetarians are stupid. Maddox wrote a pretty interesting article (if you can even call them that ) that showed harvesting machines kill more animals yearly than people slaughter for consumption or something, let me find it. *chomps on beef jerky, marinates chicken, and turns steak on grill over*

EDIT: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

 

[43st]

Originally posted by: sheik124
Because, the majority of vegetarians are stupid. Maddox wrote a pretty interesting article (if you can even call them that ) that showed harvesting machines kill more animals yearly than people slaughter for consumption or something, let me find it. *chomps on beef jerky, marinates chicken, and turns steak on grill over*

EDIT: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

LOL @ internet people.

In my 20 years of growing up on a farm I was never able run down a critter of any type with a tractor. How about you go outside and try to run over a rabbit in a field, take whatever vehicle you want.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: sheik124
Because, the majority of vegetarians are stupid. Maddox wrote a pretty interesting article (if you can even call them that ) that showed harvesting machines kill more animals yearly than people slaughter for consumption or something, let me find it. *chomps on beef jerky, marinates chicken, and turns steak on grill over*

EDIT: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

LOL @ internet people.

In my 20 years of growing up on a farm I was never able run down a critter of any type with a tractor. How about you go outside and try to run over a rabbit in a field, take whatever vehicle you want.

You'd think that in 20 years of growing up on a farm you would have heard of these.

 

[miri]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: sheik124
Because, the majority of vegetarians are stupid. Maddox wrote a pretty interesting article (if you can even call them that ) that showed harvesting machines kill more animals yearly than people slaughter for consumption or something, let me find it. *chomps on beef jerky, marinates chicken, and turns steak on grill over*

EDIT: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

LOL @ internet people.

In my 20 years of growing up on a farm I was never able run down a critter of any type with a tractor. How about you go outside and try to run over a rabbit in a field, take whatever vehicle you want.

You'd think that in 20 years of growing up on a farm you would have heard of these.

Do you think a rodent or rabbit is gonna just stand there with the amount of noise those tractors produce?

 

[Vegitto]

It's because they're idiots. That's why.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: miri

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: sheik124
Because, the majority of vegetarians are stupid. Maddox wrote a pretty interesting article (if you can even call them that ) that showed harvesting machines kill more animals yearly than people slaughter for consumption or something, let me find it. *chomps on beef jerky, marinates chicken, and turns steak on grill over*

EDIT: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

LOL @ internet people.

In my 20 years of growing up on a farm I was never able run down a critter of any type with a tractor. How about you go outside and try to run over a rabbit in a field, take whatever vehicle you want.

You'd think that in 20 years of growing up on a farm you would have heard of these.

Do you think a rodent or rabbit is gonna just stand there with the amount of noise those tractors produce?

It's usually smaller rodents than rabbits. Why don't you read the Maddox entry and the sources he used?

 

[veggiefrog]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: miri

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: Thera

Originally posted by: sheik124
Because, the majority of vegetarians are stupid. Maddox wrote a pretty interesting article (if you can even call them that ) that showed harvesting machines kill more animals yearly than people slaughter for consumption or something, let me find it. *chomps on beef jerky, marinates chicken, and turns steak on grill over*

EDIT: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=grill

LOL @ internet people.

In my 20 years of growing up on a farm I was never able run down a critter of any type with a tractor. How about you go outside and try to run over a rabbit in a field, take whatever vehicle you want.

You'd think that in 20 years of growing up on a farm you would have heard of these.

Do you think a rodent or rabbit is gonna just stand there with the amount of noise those tractors produce?

It's usually smaller rodents than rabbits. Why don't you read the Maddox entry and the sources he used?

I read the Maddox article and found that of his four sources, only one wasn't 404 and it was some random web address (not the website of the guy who wrote the apparent article). I suppose that it was interesting and if it was anyone else but Maddox I might actually be involved enough to research it further.


as far as:

Originally posted by: Wnh5001
Ok my question is why is it ok for you vegetarians to only kill and eat plants, but why is it wrong for us carnivores to eat meat? both are living things.

Well, to be honest, I guess it is hypocritical -- "What else are we supposed to eat?"
I guess it follows the rule that you can pick some fruit and veg without killing the plant completely, whereas for a steak the animal has to be killed completely.

I know that I personally get most of my fruit and veg from organic local farmers or those who own an allotment, who are small, family-owned and are animal friendly. (I live in an apartment -- I don't *have* a garden or else I would grow my own, as my family did for most of my childhood).

I don't personally have a problem with people who eat meat and rarely if ever preach to anyone about eating it. I have found myself to be healthier inside and out without it and don't even miss it (the advances over here in fake meat substitutes have been amazing).

I do wish that the animals were treated better, both in life and when being killed, but it's not my place to condemn someone else for eating it (heck, I even cooked meat for my partner before he became a pescaterian!)

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: veggiefrog
I read the Maddox article and found that of his four sources, only one wasn't 404 and it was some random web address (not the website of the guy who wrote the apparent article).

That "random web address" is a cache of this article from Oregon State University.

I see only two sources for that Maddox entry, here's a link to the 404 one: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/972951/posts

I suppose that it was interesting and if it was anyone else but Maddox I might actually be involved enough to research it further.

That's a pathetic copout.

 

[veggiefrog]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: veggiefrog
I read the Maddox article and found that of his four sources, only one wasn't 404 and it was some random web address (not the website of the guy who wrote the apparent article).

That "random web address" is a cache of this article from Oregon State University.

I see only two sources for that Maddox entry, here's a link to the 404 one: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/972951/posts

I suppose that it was interesting and if it was anyone else but Maddox I might actually be involved enough to research it further.

That's a pathetic copout.

Sorry, it's only three; the third is from the article itself (the Peta link confused me!).
I called it a "random web address" because it's not from the author, there are no supporting links/sources and "web.archive.org/web/etc." is random to me. I just felt that if it was an Oregon State Uni page, it would be on oregonstate.edu or similar. You say that it is a cache of an oregonstate.edu site; fair enough. Why didn't he just link to your link?

I think Maddox is a wanker and I find that even if I agree with him or not, the way he comes across is grating and bombastic, and I don't find his opinion respectable.

As far as "pathetic copout", I don't know enough about the animals / harvesting to comment on it, so I didn't. Perhaps you would like to reread what I posted.
What I did say is that I buy my fruit&veg from small, animal-friendly farms and people who run allotments. The farms are part of a local initiative to provide organic produce in an environmentally friendly way. They are all local to me and I can visit them if I choose, which is the reason that I elect to buy from them.
As far as the allotments -- well as it's just a few family friends growing veg in their garden plots, I highly doubt they are using heavy-duty farm equipment that kills animals.
I could get in touch with the farms and find out how many they kill each year; would the fact that it's Teesside/N. Yorkshire throw the US results?


EDIT: Nothing about the rest of my post to comment on that is relevant to the OP?

 

[OrganizedChaos]

A large dairy animal approached Zaphod Beeblebrox's table,
a large fat meaty quadruped of the bovine type with
large watery eyes, small horns and what might almost have
been an ingratiating smile on its lips.

'Good evening', it lowed and sat back heavily on its haunches,
'I am the main Dish of the Day. May I interest you in the parts
of my body?'

It harrumphed and gurgled a bit, wriggled its hind quarters in
to a more comfortable position and gazed peacefully at them.

Its gaze was met by looks of startled bewilderment from
Arthur and Trillian, a resigned shrug from Ford Prefect and
naked hunger from Zaphod Beeblebrox.

'Something off the shoulder perhaps?' suggested the animal,
'Braised in a white wine sauce?'

'Er, your shoulder?' said Arthur in a horrified whisper.

'But naturallymy shoulder, sir,' mooed the animal contentedly,
'nobody else's is mine to offer.'

Zaphod leapt to his feet and started prodding and feeling
the animal's shoulder appreciatively.

'Or the rump is very good,' murmured the animal. 'I've been
exercising it and eating plenty of grain, so there's a lot
of good meat there.'

It gave a mellow grunt, gurgled again and started to chew
the cud. It swallowed the cud again.

'Or a casselore of me perhaps?' it added.

'You mean this animal actually wants us to eat it?' whispered
Trillian to Ford.

'Me?' said Ford, with a glazed look in his eyes, 'I don't mean
anything.'

'That's absolutely horrible,' exclaimed Arthur, 'the most revolting
thing I've ever heard.'

'What's the problem Earthman?' said Zaphod, now transfering his
attention to the animal's enormous rump.

'I just don't want to eat an animal that's standing there
inviting me to,' said Arthur, 'It's heartless.'

'Better than eating an animal that doesn't want to be
eaten,' said Zaphod.

'That's not the point,' Arthur protested. Then he thought about it
for a moment. 'Alright,' he said, 'maybe it is the point. I don't
care, I'm not going to think about it now. I'll just ... er ... I
think I'll just have a green salad,' he muttered.

'May I urge you to consider my liver?' asked the animal,
'it must be very rich and tender by now, I've been force-feeding
myself for months.'

'A green salad,' said Arthur emphatically.

'A green salad?' said the animal, rolling his eyes disapprovingly
at Arthur.

'Are you going to tell me,' said Arthur, 'that I shouldn't have
green salad?'

'Well,' said the animal, 'I know many vegetables that are
very clear on that point. Which is why it was eventually
decided to cut through the whoile tangled problem and breed
an animal that actually wanted to be eaten and was capable of
saying so clearly and distinctly. And here I am.'

It managed a very slight bow.

'Glass of water please,' said Arthur.

'Look,' said Zaphod, 'we want to eat, we don't want to make
a meal of the issues. Four rare stakes please, and hurry.
We haven't eaten in five hundred and sevebty-six thousand
million years.'

The animal staggered to its feet. It gave a mellow gurgle.
'A very wise coice, sir, if I may say so. Very good,' it
said, 'I'll just nip off and shoot myself.'

He turned and gave a friendly wink to Arthur.
'Don't worry, sir,' he said, 'I'll be very humane.'

It waddled unhurriedly off to the kitchen.

 

[kogase]

Originally posted by: veggiefrog
As far as "pathetic copout", I don't know enough about the animals / harvesting to comment on it, so I didn't.

The pathetic copout I was referring to was using one's dislike for the messenger to disregard a specific argument. A pathetic tactic.

EDIT: Nothing about the rest of my post to comment on that is relevant to the OP?

Should I feel obligated to comment on the rest of your post? First of all, it was addressed to Wnh5001. Secondly, there is nothing in the rest of your post for me to contest. Most of it is your opinion. Would you like my approval, then, of your opinion? I certainly do approve of it. You have a great attitude, and I respect it very much.

My original post that was indeed relevant to the OP was a direct answer to his question. My theory is that a majority of vegetarians (specifically those who abstain from eating meat from a humanitarian standpoint) make their decisions on what is and what isn't proper to eat based on what they can anthropomorphize.

Deciding to be humane to animals is somewhat arbitrary. No one can truly say which animals experience pain, both physical and emotional, to a significant enough degree. Where do you draw the line between insect and monkey? Which animal is too stupid/unaware to treat "inhumanely"? Would one swat a fly, yet at the same time refuse to eat a slaughtered cow? Why? Because the fly can't "think" and "feel" like the cow can? How do you know?

At the same time one could ask "how do you know?" in reference to plants. How do you know plants don't experience pain? How do you know they have emotions. Well, nobody really thinks so. But what if I say I don't think a cow really feels emotions?

What it comes down to, in my opinion, is that people can anthropomorphize most animals because they have human features, unlike plants. People start to see things in animals that aren't actually there, because they (the animals) remind us of ourselves. And we don't eat each other, so why would we eat animals?

Well, the answer to that is I don't see people in animals. I see a cow, a pig, a crab. I see a thing. I see a thing I can eat and enjoy. There is no logical reason for me to see a person in an animal. The only thing that would allow me to see a person in an animal is arbitrary emotional response. I think that is what drives most vegetarians. But that is not something I believe in. I'll stick to logic before I depend on emotion.

 

[jadinolf]

Originally posted by: Wnh5001
that may be true, but your still taking their life >_<.

They do experience pain................ you should hear raw carrots scream when you bite into them.

 

[KarenMarie]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: veggiefrog
As far as "pathetic copout", I don't know enough about the animals / harvesting to comment on it, so I didn't.

The pathetic copout I was referring to was using one's dislike for the messenger to disregard a specific argument. A pathetic tactic.

EDIT: Nothing about the rest of my post to comment on that is relevant to the OP?

Should I feel obligated to comment on the rest of your post? First of all, it was addressed to Wnh5001. Secondly, there is nothing in the rest of your post for me to contest. Most of it is your opinion. Would you like my approval, then, of your opinion? I certainly do approve of it. You have a great attitude, and I respect it very much.

My original post that was indeed relevant to the OP was a direct answer to his question. My theory is that a majority of vegetarians (specifically those who abstain from eating meat from a humanitarian standpoint) make their decisions on what is and what isn't proper to eat based on what they can anthropomorphize.

Deciding to be humane to animals is somewhat arbitrary. No one can truly say which animals experience pain, both physical and emotional, to a significant enough degree. Where do you draw the line between insect and monkey? Which animal is too stupid/unaware to treat "inhumanely"? Would one swat a fly, yet at the same time refuse to eat a slaughtered cow? Why? Because the fly can't "think" and "feel" like the cow can? How do you know?

At the same time one could ask "how do you know?" in reference to plants. How do you know plants don't experience pain? How do you know they have emotions. Well, nobody really thinks so. But what if I say I don't think a cow really feels emotions?

What it comes down to, in my opinion, is that people can anthropomorphize most animals because they have human features, unlike plants. People start to see things in animals that aren't actually there, because they (the animals) remind us of ourselves. And we don't eat each other, so why would we eat animals?

Well, the answer to that is I don't see people in animals. I see a cow, a pig, a crab. I see a thing. I see a thing I can eat and enjoy. There is no logical reason for me to see a person in an animal. The only thing that would allow me to see a person in an animal is arbitrary emotional response. I think that is what drives most vegetarians. But that is not something I believe in. I'll stick to logic before I depend on emotion.

Since VeggieFrog is 5 hours ahead of us, and long since gone to bed... she will not be able to respond right now.

i know the things she told me, but i cannot show the links or quote verbatim. I wold only get it wrong.

Therefore, I will show her this link again tomorow at which time she can reply.

 

[veggiefrog]

Originally posted by: kogase

Originally posted by: veggiefrog
As far as "pathetic copout", I don't know enough about the animals / harvesting to comment on it, so I didn't.

The pathetic copout I was referring to was using one's dislike for the messenger to disregard a specific argument. A pathetic tactic.

EDIT: Nothing about the rest of my post to comment on that is relevant to the OP?

Should I feel obligated to comment on the rest of your post? First of all, it was addressed to Wnh5001. Secondly, there is nothing in the rest of your post for me to contest. Most of it is your opinion. Would you like my approval, then, of your opinion? I certainly do approve of it. You have a great attitude, and I respect it very much.

My original post that was indeed relevant to the OP was a direct answer to his question. My theory is that a majority of vegetarians (specifically those who abstain from eating meat from a humanitarian standpoint) make their decisions on what is and what isn't proper to eat based on what they can anthropomorphize.

Deciding to be humane to animals is somewhat arbitrary. No one can truly say which animals experience pain, both physical and emotional, to a significant enough degree. Where do you draw the line between insect and monkey? Which animal is too stupid/unaware to treat "inhumanely"? Would one swat a fly, yet at the same time refuse to eat a slaughtered cow? Why? Because the fly can't "think" and "feel" like the cow can? How do you know?

At the same time one could ask "how do you know?" in reference to plants. How do you know plants don't experience pain? How do you know they have emotions. Well, nobody really thinks so. But what if I say I don't think a cow really feels emotions?

What it comes down to, in my opinion, is that people can anthropomorphize most animals because they have human features, unlike plants. People start to see things in animals that aren't actually there, because they (the animals) remind us of ourselves. And we don't eat each other, so why would we eat animals?

Well, the answer to that is I don't see people in animals. I see a cow, a pig, a crab. I see a thing. I see a thing I can eat and enjoy. There is no logical reason for me to see a person in an animal. The only thing that would allow me to see a person in an animal is arbitrary emotional response. I think that is what drives most vegetarians. But that is not something I believe in. I'll stick to logic before I depend on emotion.

Look, it is blatantly obvious that no matter what I say, the fact that I admit to not knowing enough about animals being killed by a harvester to actually argue about it doesn't seem to faze you. The only time that I have heard anything about that particular subject is from Maddox (not the first time I have read the article; it's a firm favourite with the MustHateVegetarians crowd that I have run into previously) and being that it was from Maddox I have not researched it any further. If it was anyone else, or if I had heard about it from any additional source, perhaps I would have.

The rest of my post was not addressed to Wnh5001; it was simply addressing his issue. I brought up where I get my fruit and veg because given their source, I do not think that many animals are killed in production. I know not every vegetarian does this, but it was to show that not all vegetarians are supposed evil hypocrites.

As far as the rest of your post, as we cannot vocally communicate to animals, we can never be 100% sure of their feelings/emotions. But I've read about research that's been done that substantiates claims that animals feel emotions. (I can't find the specific articles I was thinking of, but here's an example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_4350000/newsid_4359400/4359431.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4360947.stm
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/produc...ription/0385314280/104-9950702-5384711
)

I know that research can be twisted to prove whatever the researcher wants it to say, but as far as this goes, I would prefer to err on the side of caution and not intentionally disregard evidence that proves another living, breathing animal can feel pain and emotion.

Saying that, I found your ideas on animals and anthropomorphisation interesting and will research it further.

 

[WildHorse]

 

[xaeniac]

Originally posted by: Beige
Im not a vegetarian but according to my christian beliefs there are certain animals im not supposed to eat and they are listed in my bible...ill name like 2 (pork, lobster)...anyway ppl have their own reasons (pity for animals, religion, culture, or maybe for some odd reason they do notlike the taste of any meat(rarely)) I guess it all depends on the situation...Zz..sleepy now ><

Peter's Vision
9About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. 10He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. 11He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners. 12It contained all kinds of four-footed animals, as well as reptiles of the earth and birds of the air. 13Then a voice told him, "Get up, Peter. Kill and eat."

14"Surely not, Lord!" Peter replied. "I have never eaten anything impure or unclean."

15The voice spoke to him a second time, "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean."

16This happened three times, and immediately the sheet was taken back to heaven.

There's a passage dear brother; Acts 10