Venting about job applicants

[arkcom]

Yeah I would probably be inclined to say your experience doesn't match up with the jobs you're applying for either.

Most of the ones I haven't heard back from have literally no experience or education requirements.

The one thing that all the positions I've interviewed for had in common was that they allowed a cover letter (or specifically mention physics) whereas the others do not.

 

[Exterous]

Isn't that kinda the point of this thread? If you're clearly not qualified based on the job description as written, at least make the case for why you would be a good fit in the cover letter.

Well, aside from the issue that if its a requirement it should...you know...be required, my experience has been that HR doesn't look for someone making a case in their cover letter. They know they put X on the requirements but will accept Y. If Y shows up they don't care why it just goes into the 'approved' bin

 

[Ns1]

Well, aside from the issue that if its a requirement it should...you know...be required, my experience has been that HR doesn't look for someone making a case in their cover letter. They know they put X on the requirements but will accept Y. If Y shows up they don't care why it just goes into the 'approved' bin

Nobody has ever been harmed by making a case on their cover letter.

 

[yottabit]

I think the 1 yr requirement is too low to effectively filter out 0 experience

As others have mentioned postings tend to exaggerate experience now, so 3 is the new 1 and 1 basically means 0 is ok

Also, what if they have been using the software off and on during that year? For applications like you are describing might be better to list hours of use. I've seen that for jobs where particular experience is necessary... ie 1000 hrs of drafting experience, etc.

Also look at the flip side of the coin- what about your job posting ISNT attracting the quality candidates you are looking for? May also open up more good candidates if you state 1 yr bidding estimate software experience required, HeavyBid preferred. This way you don't deter a user who's used 3 other bidding softwares just hasn't had the chance to use HeavyBid

It sounds like what you really don't want, is someone who has no exposure to the bidding software and/or industry in general.

 

[Exterous]

Nobody has ever been harmed by making a case on their cover letter.

Harmed? No. Tons of wasted time? Absolutely. If you need a job its one thing but qualified people who are casually looking but would jump on a good opportunity likely won't be putting in that kind of time

 

[Ns1]

Harmed? No. Tons of wasted time? Absolutely. If you need a job its one thing but qualified people who are casually looking but would jump on a good opportunity likely won't be putting in that kind of time

It's not wasted time if you get the job. Hell even if it gets you through the door it's not wasted time.

Are you guys gonna tell me you don't spend the time to prepare for interviews either?

 

[Exterous]

It's not wasted time if you get the job. Hell even if it gets you through the door it's not wasted time.

Given that most people don't get every job they interview for let alone every job they apply for then it is often wasted time.

Are you guys gonna tell me you don't spend the time to prepare for interviews either?

Either? Are you assuming I don't provide a cover letter addressing qualification differences? You should realize it is entirely possible to understand a particular action without completing that action yourself.

 

[Ns1]

I'm not addressing you at all btw, that was more of a general question to all.

 

[glenn1]

I think the 1 yr requirement is too low to effectively filter out 0 experience

As others have mentioned postings tend to exaggerate experience now, so 3 is the new 1 and 1 basically means 0 is ok

Also, what if they have been using the software off and on during that year? For applications like you are describing might be better to list hours of use. I've seen that for jobs where particular experience is necessary... ie 1000 hrs of drafting experience, etc.

Also look at the flip side of the coin- what about your job posting ISNT attracting the quality candidates you are looking for? May also open up more good candidates if you state 1 yr bidding estimate software experience required, HeavyBid preferred. This way you don't deter a user who's used 3 other bidding softwares just hasn't had the chance to use HeavyBid

It sounds like what you really don't want, is someone who has no exposure to the bidding software and/or industry in general.

No, the whole HeavyBid thing is a red herring - he's using systems experience as a qualification proxy for what his true hiring objective is - someone who can understand how to QC his specific business processes without minimal or no training and guidance (e.g. the whole "you need a flagman for this project type.").

 

[glenn1]

It's not wasted time if you get the job. Hell even if it gets you through the door it's not wasted time.

Are you guys gonna tell me you don't spend the time to prepare for interviews either?

Let's just say if you're relying on me as a prospective employee to address the shortcomings in your job description and explain why your requested qualifications are stupid and barely applicable to the job description, I'd probably not want to work for you anyway. Honestly some of you come across as the semi-hot girl in class who acts all huffy if you try asking her on a date since she feels you're not up to the standards she deserves.

 

[kranky]

glenn1, I don't know why we're always at odds in threads about work. I really am not incompetent.

It's just not true that I am playing games with the job description or that I am looking for someone to cover over flaws in the business process.

It's pretty simple: I am looking for someone who has a year experience with this software. That means they will have some work products to show me, it means they have developed some basic knowledge of how to do the job (and how to use the software to get the job done) and it gets them past the stupid mistake phase.

I am not willing to train someone from scratch as I do not have the time. I am willing to take someone who barely has their feet wet and develop them from there.

 

[_Rick_]

OP should be rejoicing.
He got 5 candidates to interview, which is pretty much the perfect number, and 13 who he could dismiss quickly and hassle-free. Now see if any of the 5 interviewees is suitable. You only have a problem if they're all shady anti-social and ugly.

 

[kranky]

OP should be rejoicing.
He got 5 candidates to interview, which is pretty much the perfect number, and 13 who he could dismiss quickly and hassle-free. Now see if any of the 5 interviewees is suitable. You only have a problem if they're all shady anti-social and ugly.

I'm willing to overlook certain attributes if they bring the skills!

 

[glenn1]

glenn1, I don't know why we're always at odds in threads about work. I really am not incompetent.

It's just not true that I am playing games with the job description or that I am looking for someone to cover over flaws in the business process.

It's pretty simple: I am looking for someone who has a year experience with this software. That means they will have some work products to show me, it means they have developed some basic knowledge of how to do the job (and how to use the software to get the job done) and it gets them past the stupid mistake phase.

I am not willing to train someone from scratch as I do not have the time. I am willing to take someone who barely has their feet wet and develop them from there.

I don't think you're incompetent and not attacking you. I do believe you have certain blind spots in this area, to which I and others have provided feedback. It's up to you if you want to actually hear what we're saying or just wanted a chance to complain and have no interest in getting actionable ideas from people. With that said; here's my advice and feel free to take or ignore as you see fit.

1. The business processes needed for success in the job you're posting are not documented. Doing so may not eliminate the need for the systems experience you're seeking, but will certainly be hugely helpful regardless.

2. You are not committed to your own requirements. As you stated, you are willing to consider someone without mandatory skills if they offer a sufficient narrative in the cover letter.

3. You have ad hoc rather than documented candidate assessment and selection criteria, which are in turn not transparently communicated to applicants.

3. Inexact job listing verbiage and instructions; e.g. not explaining how additional narrative should go into cover letter and expecting them to infer this is your preference on their own. Here’s how you can clearly and accurately write your job posting:


Title: Construction Estimator.

Requirements: The successful applicant should possess a comprehensive understanding of construction estimation principles, allowing him/her to independently:
• Perform basic quality control of inputs provided by Senior Estimators
• Determine and enforce appropriate workforce requirements for typical construction job types
• Use construction estimating software to produce a bid estimate
• Analyze the completed bid for completeness and sufficiency following system entry.

Basic Qualifications: The following criteria will be used to determine whether the applicant meets the core position requirements (must meet at least one to be considered)
• 1,000 hours experience performing construction estimation duties
• 1,000 hours experience using construction estimating software (HeavyBid preferred)
• Alternate training or business experience which would allow you to meet the primary requirements of the position (please describe in detail in your cover letter).

Education Requirements: Bachelor's degree preferred

Job Responsibilities:
- Prepares bid estimates from information provided by Senior Estimators, using HeavyBid software
- Ensures all subcontractor estimates are properly recorded
- Incorporate payment milestones and provide cash flow analysis
- Provide staffing profiles to Senior Estimators
- Assesses estimates for inconsistency
- Good interpersonal skills
- Ability to use Microsoft Word, Excel and Outlook

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Opposite issue.

I'm 2 years out of graduating from college. It clearly states on my resume on DiCE for how long I've been professinally working and what year I graduated.

I frequently get inquiries to fill open positions, first requirement:

8+ years programming in J2EE.

I respond to each telling them to never contact me again.

Although in 8 years I may eat my words

I actually had a guy contact me for an entry-level help desk position about a year ago. It had REALLY basic requirements and was paying like $12 an hour. When I finished laughing, I emailed the guy and asked him if had even bothered to actually read my resume and that someone with 20 years of experience was way above that job.

 

[alkemyst]

I actually had a guy contact me for an entry-level help desk position about a year ago. It had REALLY basic requirements and was paying like $12 an hour. When I finished laughing, I emailed the guy and asked him if had even bothered to actually read my resume and that someone with 20 years of experience was way above that job.

There are people without work going back to entry level positions. My brother had two Ph.D's that got laid off boxing things for $10/hr a couple years ago.

 

[SunnyD]

I am willing to take someone who barely has their feet wet and develop them from there.

See, that's not remotely what your initial "sample" job listing implies at all. It reads that you want someone overqualified for the position that's going to come in and know how to use the exact tools you mention in your exact business scenarios from day one without any sort of company training at all. And the pay is probably going to suck too.

Title: Construction Estimator.

Requirements: The successful applicant should possess a comprehensive understanding of construction estimation principles, allowing him/her to independently:
• Perform basic quality control of inputs provided by Senior Estimators
• Determine and enforce appropriate workforce requirements for typical construction job types
• Use construction estimating software to produce a bid estimate
• Analyze the completed bid for completeness and sufficiency following system entry.

Basic Qualifications: The following criteria will be used to determine whether the applicant meets the core position requirements (must meet at least one to be considered)
• 1,000 hours experience performing construction estimation duties
• 1,000 hours experience using construction estimating software (HeavyBid preferred)
• Alternate training or business experience which would allow you to meet the primary requirements of the position (please describe in detail in your cover letter).

Education Requirements: Bachelor's degree preferred

Job Responsibilities:
- Prepares bid estimates from information provided by Senior Estimators, using HeavyBid software
- Ensures all subcontractor estimates are properly recorded
- Incorporate payment milestones and provide cash flow analysis
- Provide staffing profiles to Senior Estimators
- Assesses estimates for inconsistency
- Good interpersonal skills
- Ability to use Microsoft Word, Excel and Outlook

:thumbsup:

Clear, concise, and gives enough flexibility to know whether transitional candidates might even have a shot at the position and make it worthwhile applying.

Seriously dude... are you hiring?

 

[glenn1]

Seriously dude... are you hiring?

Not right now, next time up I'll put up v.2 of this thread: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2391201

 

[Homerboy]

Wait, cover letters are ACTUALLY read AND taken into consideration?
Color me shocked.

 

[sourceninja]

Wait, cover letters are ACTUALLY read AND taken into consideration?
Color me shocked.

I wrote a program that fills out a template cover letter for me based on keywords I select.

Saves time and seems personalized.

 

[rsbennett00]

Wait, cover letters are ACTUALLY read AND taken into consideration?
Color me shocked.

Not by all of us. I usually just skip to the pictures.

 

[Naeeldar]

See, that's not remotely what your initial "sample" job listing implies at all. It reads that you want someone overqualified for the position that's going to come in and know how to use the exact tools you mention in your exact business scenarios from day one without any sort of company training at all. And the pay is probably going to suck too.



:thumbsup:

Clear, concise, and gives enough flexibility to know whether transitional candidates might even have a shot at the position and make it worthwhile applying.

Seriously dude... are you hiring?

Agree 100%. The job posting makes it sound like the pay is for entry level but he doesn't want to have to spend the 3-4 weeks it would take (if that even) to get somebody up to speed on the program. So he wants somebody who is using the program else where already and won't need training.

 

[ibex333]

I'm involved with filling a job opening. People must apply online where people upload a resume and a cover letter. The job dimensions and qualifications are clearly stated on various job sites.

There are 18 applicants so far, of which exactly 2 have the required qualifications.

Three others do not fully meet the qualifications but provided compelling cover letters that directly addressed the position requirements along with a resume that could sway me to at least interview them to see how they would convince me they could do the job if they had some OJT. That's worked out for me before.

The other 13 had no business applying. They don't have the qualifications, their background is not relevant, and provided no explanation to support why they think they would be a good fit. Some of those didn't even provide a cover letter.

This is why companies use automated systems to screen applicants - too many people applying for jobs they aren't qualified for and they don't even take the time to offer an justification. If an applicant was referred by a respected employee, that is huge and can overcome a lot of apparent shortcomings. If Bob tells me the person he referred to me would be able to learn the job very quickly, and would be 100% committed to getting up to speed, and I know Bob is trustworthy, I'm going to seriously consider that person even if I might not have otherwise.

So my point is please invest time in networking so when you are applying for something, you can leverage being referred by someone or know people who can alert you to positions. Join trade groups, local civic groups, volunteer at the food bank, whatever. Those things are run by people with connections and it's not hard to volunteer for something where you find yourself working with someone on the Board of Directors. Impress that person after a little time, and you have a great new personal reference.

I really hate that kind of thinking. There is no reason people should be screwed because they are antisocial and do not have references.

There could be plenty of reasons. People may have been sick in school and because of that they didn't network much and didn't do any internships. They could have had family problems. They could have had other various issues that prevented them from having many friends or doing any internships.

Someone may be very much qualified for the position you have opened, but you wont even look that them because they don't have experience or references. You'll never know, because you never even gave them a chance.

You can also have someone who is extremely social and has references but when he actually starts working you'll quickly see he doesn't have the right skills for that job.

Oh, and remind me never to work for you. I wouldn't want to have a boss or an interviewer with this sort of thinking. My boss gave me a chance when I had absolutely no work experience and never did an internship in my life. All I had was my A+ Certification and an Associates Degree in Liberal Arts.

 

[OutHouse]

Three others do not fully meet the qualifications but provided compelling cover letters that directly addressed the position requirements along with a resume that could sway me to at least interview them to see how they would convince me they could do the job if they had some OJT. That's worked out for me before.

they are just proving to the unemployment office they are looking for a job. we get this shit all the time. job is for a senior .net code monkey and we get a resume in and the last job the guy had was bagging groceries at the supermarket.

and FYI, i never read cover letters. i think they are a complete waste of time and outdated.

 

[Ns1]

Someone may be very much qualified for the position you have opened, but you wont even look that them because they don't have experience or references. You'll never know, because you never even gave them a chance.

it's called "playing the odds"