Verdict: COD: WaW Officially Sucks

[Stuxnet]

I purchased WaW a month or so after it was released and drew quick conclusions that I didn't like it for a number of reasons. Long story short, I gave up on it after a week or so. Recently, I decided to give it another stab.

Yeah, still sucks.

Although I still think it's lacking "something", I can finally put my finger on what that "something" is: MAP DESIGN.

Most of the maps in Call of Duty 4 are, in my opinion, absolutely stellar: they're the proper size and they have a built-in "flow" that is - for the most part - free of clutter.

The maps in WaW are absolutely stunning. From a pure visuals standpoint, I'd probably have to say they're marginally more pleasant to look at than the maps in COD4. However, they're not *nearly* as much fun to play.

Several maps in COD4 suck, in my opinion. Countdown, Wet Work (unless you're sniping, in which case it's a blast), Showdown, and Chinatown all suffer from the same problems that *ALL* of the maps in WaW suffer from. No flow, no cover, no real strategic points, and generally no way to strategically move from A to B. Imagine taking a bird's eye view of a large city's downtown area: it's just a grid. That's what these maps feel like, more or less.

Then there's the clutter. There is so much SHIT in WaW's maps that you can't take two steps without tripping over a crate of rice or a plat of vodka.

Coupled with a spawn system that Treyarch obviously "tweaked" from COD4, and you have a chaotic shitstorm. Players spawning six feet behind me in an area I just cleared in a total kick in the taint, and it pisses me off. This might happen in COD4, but it's so rare I hate to even bring it up.

There are a few maps that, gun to my head, I would classify as redeemable: Station, Courtyard, and Makin if I'm feeling generous. They're still too busy, but when carefully traversed you can at least take a couple steps without being exposed at six different angles at two axises. Roundhouse makes me want to cut someone IRL. What jerkwater of a tool conceived that map?

I've always considered myself a graphics whore, and I get irritated by the children who run around screaming "GRAPHICS < GAMEPLAY". For once, I find myself on their side. Treyarch obviously focused on making the levels gorgeous and realistic rather than simply fun to play. COD4's maps aren't going to be mistaken for any real-world locales. Under scrutiny, they're admittedly not as believable as WaW's. But in the heat of battle, no one is thinking about that. They're just trying to have fun, and on that front, COD4's maps deliver in spades.

Online gaming's most famous, most popular map of all time could teach developers a thing or two. Counterstrike's Dust was home to hoards of fans for one simple reason: it oozed flow. Certainly not very creative or compelling by today's standards, but you could rip the textures and objects right out and it would still be fun. Do that with Nightfall or Roundhouse (the worst map ever conceived, obviously inspired by the uninspired Countdown of COD4) and it would just be a big "WTF". Throw in some dumbass' idea of an April Fool's joke that lasts all year - retarded tanks that hardly even have room to pivot - and you have an atrocity on your hands. An atrocity not because it's SO BAD, but because it falls measurably short of what could have been SO GOOD.

I really, REALLY wanted to like World at War. The COD multiplayer formula is so addicting, and I wanted something to tide me over when I need a break from COD4 while I wait for COD:MW2. If WaW succeeds at anything, it's making me appreciate the value of sacrificed realism.

 

[coldmeat]

I like the maps Countdown and Chinatown, but I play on the pc with only 3-5 other players on the map. It makes the game a lot more fun and intense to play with fewer people.

 

[Kabob]

Yeah, the moment I started the beta I didn't like it. I beta'd CoD 4 as well and it took me all of 10 minutes to love the game, it was so new, so different. W@W felt like a cheap knockoff. The graphics weren't as good, the gameplay just didn't feel right, I dunno, it never felt nearly as polished as MW did. I think the majority of that is Treyarch producing it rather than Infinity Ward, they just took everything that IW made CoD 4 do right and tried to get it to work for them.

Alot of people really like W@W but I think it's a sub par knockoff game, CoD 4 is still a blast for me and is still one of my top 3 or so shooter games I've ever played.

 

[JoPh]

i like both.

and zombies++++

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: kabob983
Yeah, the moment I started the beta I didn't like it. I beta'd CoD 4 as well and it took me all of 10 minutes to love the game

I know what you mean. Several minutes into COD4's beta, I was hooked like a whore new to crack. I doubt I played 5 minutes of WaW's beta - so many of the animations were messed up and out of sync that I got nauseous. It was only when several people confirmed that these animations had been fixed for retail that I agreed to give it a shot. Reload animations are still pretty bad (they're jerky and very, very unnatural), but it's much better than the beta.

Originally posted by: kabob983
the gameplay just didn't feel right, I dunno, it never felt nearly as polished as MW did.

Bingo. It's tough to put your finger on why it doesn't feel polished, because visually it looks pretty darn good. But the lack of polish is in the map design. Infinity Ward takes an approach to map design that is virtually identical to a number of very popular programming methodologies grounded in something called "iterative development". It basically states that you start testing the moment you have something that can be executed. In the world of mapping, this means playing through the maps the moment you have the structure of the map and long before you even think of adding textures or ancillary crap like crates and debris.

The idea is that if the map is fun to play when it's not all candied up, then it will be fun to play after the artists have been permitted to have their way with it.

There is NO WAY IN HELL Treyarch took a cue from IW and followed this methodology. These maps were obviously designed to look pretty, and they were working toward that singular goal from day 1. Toss in overzealous artists who want to pee and shit all over the maps with their glorious replicas of Nazi paraphernalia and propane tanks, and you have a map that is extremely frustrating to play.

I think another thing that really hurts Treyarch's maps is their size. They're just too damn big! Seelow could be a decent map if it wasn't so damn ginormous and so difficult to move from A to B. The size of these maps makes it more demanding to be traversing large distances, which of course keeps you constantly exposed from numerous angles. COD4's Backlot is a difficult map in which to find cover, but it's moderate in size, so you don't NEED to constantly be running around. There's also a well-defined perimeter to the map, and if you work that perimeter well, you will absolutely work over the other team.

Originally posted by: kabob983
I think the majority of that is Treyarch producing it rather than Infinity Ward, they just took everything that IW made CoD 4 do right and tried to get it to work for them.

Which is why I'm so optimistic about Modern Warfare 2. There's obviously a map designer (or two) that I don't care for at IW, and I fear that we'll get more maps like Countdown and Showdown and fewer maps like Backlot, Crash, Crossfire, and Overgrown. I even love Vacant. It's chaotic, but there's still an order to it and, if you're good, you can make that map work FOR you and not AGAINST you. If there's a way to do that with Roundhouse, I'm all ears!

Originally posted by: JoPh
i like both.

Thank you for that constructive input. And there are no zombies in MP.

I do find myself enjoying WaW occassionally, but only when I'm in a server that has 6 - 8 players. As soon as it fills up, it all goes to hell.

Originally posted by: coldmeat
I like the maps Countdown and Chinatown, but I play on the pc with only 3-5 other players on the map. It makes the game a lot more fun and intense to play with fewer people.

Player counts seem to have a huge impact on COD games. I also have COD4 for the PC, but I don't find it nearly as enjoyable because most servers are running 20+ players, which are - in my opinion - way outside the maps' designs. Shipment, for example, is a ***TON*** of fun with 2, 3, or even 4 other players. But more than that, and it turns from a blast to a PITA.

I imagine that maps like Countdown and Roundhouse would be fun with much smaller player counts because you'd be able to reclaim some strategy. There wouldn't be such a penalty for being exposed in every direction because, odds are, no one is looking in your direction at any given moment in time.

In both games, I use suppressors / flash hiders as well as UAV Jammer / Camo. In COD4, it's amazing how much less attention you draw to yourself when using these. In WaW, it's virtually unnoticeable. Why? Because no matter where you are, you're in someone's scope, regardless of whether they see you on the radar.

 

[JoPh]

uhhhh zombies is a mp mode. what are you talking about? its just a coop instead dm.

the game is fine. just relax and having fun. i dont have one issue at all with w@w. its a nice fun game.

 

[Kabob]

I had a nice long response typed out and it somehow vanished...boo.

Anyways, I think one thing that sets CoD 4's multiplayer apart is the level design for sure. It seems that typically for shooters there's two ways to design a level, you either make it completely (or mostly) symmertical in order to make it balanced, starting position doesn't give anyone any advantage whatsoever (Halo, Gears of War, TF2). The other method is to make them asymmertical but one side starts out with a huge advantage (MoH: Allied Assault comes to mind). CoD 4 succeeds in being completely asymmetrical yet remaining mostly balanced, which it seems so few games accomplish. The first time I fired up the beta the first map I played was Crash and I was blown away by how well the level was designed and how well the gameplay itself fit the level.

Originally posted by: jbourne77
Which is why I'm so optimistic about Modern Warfare 2. There's obviously a map designer (or two) that I don't care for at IW, and I fear that we'll get more maps like Countdown and Showdown and fewer maps like Backlot, Crash, Crossfire, and Overgrown. I even love Vacant. It's chaotic, but there's still an order to it and, if you're good, you can make that map work FOR you and not AGAINST you. If there's a way to do that with Roundhouse, I'm all ears!

Vacant is probably my single favorite map (or maybe tied with Downpour) which is sad because it's the map that everyone votes to skip. Other favorites include Crossfire, Crash, and even Broadcast. I don't even mind Showdown every once in a while. You know what I just realized, I don't think I've ever played the Killhouse DLC map before, I've played all the others several times but I have no memory of Killhouse whatsoever. Hrm...

There's a map or two that I truly despise though. Wet Work first and foremost, there's just no decent way to play the map. You can hang back a little bit, but you'll be blown up by one of the 500 spammed grenades. You can try to snipe which gets boring and eventually you'll either get snuck up behind or sniped, or you can charge and either be shot or hit with a rifle grenade...that's the only map I routinely try to avoid. The other I'm not a big fan of is Bloc, I'm too impatient/inept to snipe and everyone else snipes and camps, it is just slow for me. Countdown I'm not super fond of but it's alright.

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

I don't own the game, but I played it on a friend's PS3, and I love the zombie stuff, if I can score a PC copy for like $25 at some point, I would pick it up just for that.

 

[Kabob]

Most of my friends who were big CoD 4 fans bought W@W and around 80% of them played it for a while and reverted back to CoD 4.

For anyone who's never played either you probably won't notice the shortcomings of W@W as much as you won't have 4 to compare it to, but I'd always suggest 4 over W@W.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: JoPh
uhhhh zombies is a mp mode. what are you talking about? its just a coop instead dm.

the game is fine. just relax and having fun. i dont have one issue at all with w@w. its a nice fun game.

You need to understand that your claim that the game is "fine" is no more valid than mine that's it's not. You need to understand that it's a matter of opinion. I've substantiated my opinion with some rather valid, tangible complaints. If you disagree, explain why. If you don't care to explain why, then go enjoy your game.

Also, it's rather obvious that we're not talking about Zombie Co-op. I don't know about you, but I don't pay $60 for novelty modes, and I'm quite sure no one else does, either.

Originally posted by: kabob983
Other favorites include Crossfire, Crash, and even Broadcast.

These are great maps. They're the proper size for the number of players in the game, and they have flow. They weren't filled with a ton of useless crap, and you're not exposed seven ways from Sunday no matter where you are. Crossfire is one of the best maps EVER. By far my favorite. It lets snipers snipe, and it lets people like me cut them. That map is usually a chess match between the campers and the coverts, and I love it. Crash is just a great shoot-em up with key pathways that lead to great firefights. "Fronts" develop in these maps. They don't in WaW. WaW is random chaos. COD4 is ordered chaos. In ordered chaos, your decisions still matter. In WaW, your decisions loosely influence your luck.

Originally posted by: kabob983
Wet Work first and foremost, there's just no decent way to play the map. You can hang back a little bit, but you'll be blown up by one of the 500 spammed grenades.

This is so, so true. I *HATED* Wet Work the exact reasons you mention. I do enjoy it these days, though, but only because I've resigned myself to sniping. I've actually become quite good at it, but if I'm not in the sniping mood, I will avoid that map at all costs. For the non-snipers, it's trash and suffers from the same maladies that most of the WaW maps suffer from: grid-style map design with no flow.

Originally posted by: kabob983
The other I'm not a big fan of is Bloc, I'm too impatient/inept to snipe and everyone else snipes and camps, it is just slow for me.

I know I'm a minority in this regard, but I love Bloc. Suppressed P90 + UAV Jammer + 3 stun grenades = TOTAL OWNAGE. Pardon me for bragging, but I usually go 30 and 5 or something ridiculous on that map. With so many people sniping, I just creep around and dominate.

Sniping is pretty prevalent in WaW, but whereas Bloc provides ample cover for concealed movement, WaW does not. You're never more than one or two steps away from being totally exposed from countless angles.

Originally posted by: kabob983
Most of my friends who were big CoD 4 fans bought W@W and around 80% of them played it for a while and reverted back to CoD 4.

For anyone who's never played either you probably won't notice the shortcomings of W@W as much as you won't have 4 to compare it to, but I'd always suggest 4 over W@W.

Count me in with them. I have around 10 hours of solid play time in MP, and after COD4, I just can't stomach it. It's good for random run-and-gunning, but a strategic FPS it most certainly is not.

 

[Kabob]

I've nothing against people who are enjoying their purchased of W@W, it's just not for me. Zombie mode sounds alot like Horde mode from GoW, which was fun for a lil' while but kinda gets old.

Originally posted by: jbourne77
These are great maps. They're the proper size for the number of players in the game, and they have flow. They weren't filled with a ton of useless crap, and you're not exposed seven ways from Sunday no matter where you are. Crossfire is one of the best maps EVER. By far my favorite. It lets snipers snipe, and it lets people like me cut them. That map is usually a chess match between the campers and the coverts, and I love it. Crash is just a great shoot-em up with key pathways that lead to great firefights. "Fronts" develop in these maps. They don't in WaW. WaW is random chaos. COD4 is ordered chaos. In ordered chaos, your decisions still matter. In WaW, your decisions loosely influence your luck.

Yeah, Crossfire is one of the maps where I don't feel like I'm moments away from being pinned down/surprised sniped by a sniper, there's enough of a clear view to give a decent sniper a good chance at holding his position for quite a while yet enough cover to try to sneak around to him.

The P90 (IMHO) is one of those horribly overpowered guns that I try to steer clear of, it was the PPSH in CoD2, it's the P90 in CoD4. I've got one set up just how you said (with the exception of 3x grenades rather than 3x flashes) but more often than not I'll use an MP5 with silencer, just feels...I dunno..."cooler" somehow.

You know, seeing how we're on the same level methinks we need to team up and kill some digital terrorists, you have the 360 version?

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: kabob983
The P90 (IMHO) is one of those horribly overpowered guns that I try to steer clear of, it was the PPSH in CoD2, it's the P90 in CoD4. I've got one set up just how you said (with the exception of 3x grenades rather than 3x flashes) but more often than not I'll use an MP5 with silencer, just feels...I dunno..."cooler" somehow.

You know, seeing how we're on the same level methinks we need to team up and kill some digital terrorists, you have the 360 version?

You're completely right about the P90. Between its uber-accuracy and the size of a clip, it's definitely overpowered. If I'm ever feeling guilty - which is quite rare, honestly - I'll swap it out for a silenced MP5 + UAV Jammer.

My Live gamertag is 'Snky B'... we definitely need to team up!

 

[Kabob]

Heh, no guilt trips needed, just my personal preference. You could also point out that the M16 I use the majority of the time is overly accurate and powerful, but that doesn't really stop me!

I'll add you to my XBL friend's list (my XBL name is I Kabob I), we'll have to get our game on sometime!

 

[Thraxen]

Clearly this thread is geared more toward MP, but since the title is a blanket statement I'm going to throw my 2 cents in. I personally value single player and co-op stuff more than MP, so I happen to really like W@W. CoD4 was a fantastic single player game, but the competitive 4 co-op in W@W is a blast. And since CoD4 has no co-op at all it loses on that point. Plus, like JoPh, I enjoy the Nazi Zombie mode. So...

Verdict: W@W Officially Does NOT Suck

 

[Stuxnet]

I have no problem awarding points for WaW's single player. I thoroughly enjoyed it. I know not everyone places the same weight on various aspects of a game, but for me, a game's longevity and ultimate success rests on its traditional MP. If DM and TDM aren't fun for me, the rest of the game isn't going to be able to make up for it, no matter how good it is. Simply put, I buy games for their multiplayer functionality and appeal. WaW did not deliver for me. Had it come before COD4, maybe I would feel differently. But whether Treyarch (or anyone else, for that matter) likes it or not, WaW came after Modern Warfare and the game needs to be able to adequately fill those shoes.

WaW obviously did a lot right - or should I say, did a lot well enough - because it's sold quite well. But there does seem to be noticeable disappointment and frustration with the traditional MP modes.

 

[bdubyah]

well, all me and my friends play is HC S&D and War, and it is not as bad this way. TDM can really suck sometimes, so we rarely play it. but i prefer War and S&D over TDM anyways.

if anything, these modes present you with some flow, as you say. have you tried playing them? there is more than just TDM in these games you know. and i find the other modes quite a bit more fun.

EDIT- and about everyone going back to COD4. with all the people i hear saying this, COD4 should be #1 on Live again, but it's not. it is #3, behind halo 3 and, you guessed it, COD:WAW. i will now wait for the typical "WAW is a fad" statement.

 

[Kabob]

WaW is a fad.

...


...


...



Seriously, if others enjoy it then great! I just didn't find it nearly as satisfying as it's predecesor.

I really enjoy S&D on 4 as well, a very different pace to the game for sure.

Also, I think comparing the "multiplayer rank" of a game that's been out a few months vs. a game that's been out a year and a half is a little unfair. Course, Halo has been out longer than either so I guess I can take a little shut-up juice for that point.

 

[bdubyah]

Originally posted by: kabob983
WaW is a fad.

/slap

well, i understand it isn't for every body. it's just that of all the "WaW suckz!!!11!" threads, i finally decided to post in this one.

i mean, i will agree on some of the points posted above. me and my friends often talk about the map quality while we are playing. there are a lot of bad ones.

but, as i said, maps play differently in different game modes. like i hate cliffside in TDM, but it is fairly good in S&D.

oh, and about comparing those games, that was more about the whole fad statement. i was just saying it is still there, despite people saying months ago that it wouldn't last.

 

[tvdang7]

i dont see any servers in cod4 anymore. i guess they all didnt update to the latest patch.

 

[Kabob]

Originally posted by: tvdang7
i dont see any servers in cod4 anymore. i guess they all didnt update to the latest patch.

On PC?

And one thought for ya bdubyah, when World at War came out CoD 4 was still going strong (and still is). I predict that when MW2 comes out W@W will lose almost all it's players. Just a prediction.

 

[bdubyah]

no doubt. i'm sure it will. but if it stays above COD4 and swaps places with halo 3 sometimes, it is doing more than people said it would. a year is kind of a long fad for a game.

i'm not some tard who wacks off to this game, but i'm not going to lie and say i haven't had a lot of fun with it. i was a COD4 whore as well, think i had around 12 or so days in it total. i only have around 2-3 days in WaW so far. but if zombies counted in that total, it would probably double. it just gets annoying when people who played and liked COD4 get all pissy when they play WaW and don't like it. not meaning you with that, as you didn't care enough about it to come and start yet another thread. i mean, the game has been out for almost 6 months. no one cares anymore.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: bdubyah
it just gets annoying when people who played and liked COD4 get all pissy when they play WaW and don't like it.

Sorry, I'll check with you the next time I have an opinion :roll: . I'll tell you what I told another 3rd grader here today: if you don't like reading it, DON'T.

Originally posted by: bdubyah
i mean, the game has been out for almost 6 months. no one cares anymore.

I cared enough to post here, others cared enough to post here, and you cared enough to post here. I think you're a bit confused.


Look son, I spent $60 on the game. I like the franchise. I care about the franchise. My criticisms were quite constructive. You personal disagreement with them doesn't make them any less valid. But if I want give props for the game, make baseless claims about the game, or make constructive criticisms about the game, I will. I will, and you will suck it.

 

[bdubyah]

It was more that you are just now doing it. There have been countless threads about this game since it came out.

What makes this so important that you have to come and post it in a new thread? All of what you said has been stated by other people, over and over.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: bdubyah
It was more that you are just now doing it. There have been countless threads about this game since it came out.

What makes this so important that you have to come and post it in a new thread? All of what you said has been stated by other people, over and over.

It was important because I said it was important. What makes your whiny little gripes about my griping so important that you need to thread crap all over the place?

Again, if you don't want to read WaW threads, don't click them. Problem solved.

 

[AstroManLuca]

I just got WaW this past weekend after I learned that several of my friends play it all the time. And at the moment, I prefer it over 4. Maybe I'm still in the "honeymoon period" and I enjoy it just because it's new and fresh, but I think the lack of grenade spam is basically enough. It was so bad in 4 that I basically never played. People also tended to camp way too much in 4... not sure why they wouldn't in WaW, but I don't get killed by hidden guys quite as much as I used to.