Verizon FIOS

Vampirrella

Golden Member
Apr 5, 2001
1,211
0
71
Finally after a good 2 months of construction in my street and driveway which were torn up by the Verizon workers laying fiber optics, it is finally complete and all resurfaced. Now I am wondering if this new fiber optics performance wise, will be better then my current 8Mbit/s connection i get via Comcast.

Verizon claims I can get 15Mbit down and 2Mbit up for $39.95 a mo. How realistic are these speeds really? Anyone already have experience with Verizon FIOS service and if so, how does it compare to cable modem?

 

Ctrackstar126

Senior member
Jul 14, 2005
988
0
76
From what people have been saying its the sh^t. I cant wait til I get it here.

Im actually getting a job with time warner and they give you free internet.
If Fios came I would drop Time Warner and go with Fios.
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
It is said to be extremely fast & compared to Cable Internet, relatively inexpensive
Now if you have Cablevision Optimum Online they have a new very high speed
version of it .. Optimum Online Boost ... up to 30MBS Download & 2MBS Upload
It costs an extra $9.95 per month for Optimum Online customers

Here are the Verizon FIOS Speeds & Costs:

Maximum Connection Speed* Monthly Price Range
Up to 5 Mbps/2 Mbps $34.95 - $39.95
Up to 15 Mbps/2 Mbps $44.95 - $49.95
Up to 30 Mbps/5 Mbps $179.95 - $199.95

See link: http://www22.verizon.com/FiOSForHome/channels/Fios/root/package.aspx

 

halfadder

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2004
1,190
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0
FiOS is very reliable and just as fast as they claim. Some early adopters claim it's even faster than advertised. The sweet spot right now is the 30mbit/2mbit boost package. Go for FiOS, give DSL and Cable the finger.
 

Ctrackstar126

Senior member
Jul 14, 2005
988
0
76
Originally posted by: halfadder
FiOS is very reliable and just as fast as they claim. Some early adopters claim it's even faster than advertised. The sweet spot right now is the 30mbit/2mbit boost package. Go for FiOS, give DSL and Cable the finger.

Twice
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
Hlafadder ..... while I would agree direct fiber is nice & reliable ...please look at the Verizon Web site link
I posted ... For between $45 & $49 you only get 15MBS Download .. Optimum On Line With Boost
will be around $53 for 30 MBS Download

 

cmetz

Platinum Member
Nov 13, 2001
2,296
0
0
Vampirrella, the service itself is currently very good. Verizon is a big dumb company. So getting it installed could be smooth, or could run you into complex problems. Similarly, if you do have a problem, it could get fixed quickly or easily, or be a nightmare. It's just kinda dumb luck with them. (me, I have horrible luck with telcos. But I also don't give up.) Unlike some other Verizon services, FIOS has very high-level priority within the company, and they want it to succeed, so they really do want to help you. It just may be hard, because they're a Big Company.

The speeds are quite real. It's a refreshing change from modern ISP advertising, where the words "up to" are more and more liberally used. Verizon's peering is okay, hopefully improving with the MCI merger. I can get 15 down and 2 up from my data centers, or from some nearby ISPs/well connected ISPs. Random sites on the 'net, downloads may be more like 5-8Mb/s. Peering and path capacity is a complex thing, but this falls well within reasonable expectations. If you can really truly get 5-8Mb/s down from most random sites on the 'net, I think they're doing well.

Now, whether the service becomes a victim of its own success and slows down due to overloaded trunk links, that remains to be seen. Verizon did have problems with that in some markets back in the DSL days. But that can happen to anyone if they don't grow their network to cope with edge subscriber growth.

Cable companies should be scared. Very scared. Fiber to the home with a solid scaling path up to 155Mb/s per home is a very stiff bit of competition. Currently, most cable companies are doing their Jedi mind trick. "You can't use that much bandwidth"...
 

bruceb

Diamond Member
Aug 20, 2004
8,874
111
106
It won't slow down as long as the central offices are connected to the internet thru fiber optics as well,
which I believe they are. Most of the Verizon T1, T3 & higher capacity carrier systems are already on
fiber optics .... the only potential bottleneck is the mux or dslam equipment that sends the signals to
the correct users
 

halfadder

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2004
1,190
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0
Fibre isn't a magical fairy wand. Verizon can have huge amounts of optical fibre to and from their central offices, it's their peering (interconnecting) to other networks and other ISPs that will become the bottleneck for the majority of FiOS internet users.
 

elkinm

Platinum Member
Jun 9, 2001
2,146
0
71
That 2 Mbps is what I want. Anybody know how far FIOS or equivalent is moving. When will it be in the Chicago area?
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: cmetz
Vampirrella, the service itself is currently very good. Verizon is a big dumb company. So getting it installed could be smooth, or could run you into complex problems. Similarly, if you do have a problem, it could get fixed quickly or easily, or be a nightmare. It's just kinda dumb luck with them. (me, I have horrible luck with telcos. But I also don't give up.) Unlike some other Verizon services, FIOS has very high-level priority within the company, and they want it to succeed, so they really do want to help you. It just may be hard, because they're a Big Company.

The speeds are quite real. It's a refreshing change from modern ISP advertising, where the words "up to" are more and more liberally used. Verizon's peering is okay, hopefully improving with the MCI merger. I can get 15 down and 2 up from my data centers, or from some nearby ISPs/well connected ISPs. Random sites on the 'net, downloads may be more like 5-8Mb/s. Peering and path capacity is a complex thing, but this falls well within reasonable expectations. If you can really truly get 5-8Mb/s down from most random sites on the 'net, I think they're doing well.

Now, whether the service becomes a victim of its own success and slows down due to overloaded trunk links, that remains to be seen. Verizon did have problems with that in some markets back in the DSL days. But that can happen to anyone if they don't grow their network to cope with edge subscriber growth.

Cable companies should be scared. Very scared. Fiber to the home with a solid scaling path up to 155Mb/s per home is a very stiff bit of competition. Currently, most cable companies are doing their Jedi mind trick. "You can't use that much bandwidth"...

cmetz,

In my experience the cable companies are saying "we need to build our backbone to accomodate mulit 100 megabit services that our HFC networks can provide to truly offer content on demand. HD on demand is a big chunk to chew and they are setting their networks up to do it.

In fact I've helped one of them do just that.
 

kevnich2

Platinum Member
Apr 10, 2004
2,465
8
76
I don't think cable companies should be scared at all and they're not. Yes fiber directly to the premise could be faster but most up-to-date cable ISP's use a HFC network very comparable to verizon's all fiber network. With HFC, most links are fiber with the exception of the coax network that links directly to the houses. This saves the cable companies lots of money because the coax cable has much more bandwidth than most think and it's already in place so they only need to upgrade their main lines. Average cost to upgrade per house is $2,000, add that up and that's mega $$$ for verizon and other telcos.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
I'd love to have an option besides Charter. Their upload is carptacular, effing 256kbps. I had that much back in 1998 on Qwests entry level DSL line.

 

Brovane

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2001
6,041
2,332
136
Originally posted by: kevnich2
I don't think cable companies should be scared at all and they're not. Yes fiber directly to the premise could be faster but most up-to-date cable ISP's use a HFC network very comparable to verizon's all fiber network. With HFC, most links are fiber with the exception of the coax network that links directly to the houses. This saves the cable companies lots of money because the coax cable has much more bandwidth than most think and it's already in place so they only need to upgrade their main lines. Average cost to upgrade per house is $2,000, add that up and that's mega $$$ for verizon and other telcos.


Very True. I have 9MB down and 1MB up through my cable company. The speeds seem fast enough for whatever I need to do. Not all cable modem speeds are the same. At my in-laws who are on roadrunner there speeds are about 25% of the speeds that I get. I have heard talks of speeds with new DOCSIS standards for 15MB down and 2MB up.
 

halfadder

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2004
1,190
0
0
Originally posted by: imhungry
Hmm, over here we can get the 30/5 package for $55 / $60..


Must be some good competition (or a threat of competition) in your area.

Seems like the fastest cable modems and cheapest FiOS are in cities that have both, or will soon be getting both.
 

cmetz

Platinum Member
Nov 13, 2001
2,296
0
0
spidey07, it's true that cable companies are currently focused on their backbones and peering. That's their hottest problem right now. They killed off @Home, who had a decent backbone and good peering, and thought that it would be easy to build replacement backbones/peering in house. Well, that didn't work out so well.

Where I am - an Adelphia market - they can't keep the cable modems working reliably. If something breaks, it's a big ol' mess to get fixed. My parents live in a Cox market. Same story. Decent when it works. Slows down during prime time (contrary to cable company claims, they never split nodes aggressively enough anymore, so they oversubscribe too much and during prime time many markets slow down).

DSL has similar problems. Both cable and DSL, at a very fundamental level, are kluges. We're taking copper networks that were meant to solve one problem and making them solve another. And maybe it works most of the time, but there's no way you're getting into five-nines territory with those technologies.

That is reaon #1 why I think VZ's competitors should be scared of fiber to the home. It's a ground up rebuild of the network, intended to carry these services. Not a retrofit onto a plant not really designed for it. (Yes, the fiber side of HFC is designed for multi-service operation. But it's still feeding into some crappy and possibly ancient copper-based distribution amps and coax)

FIOS is BPON, which has a very simple upgrade path to GPON. GPON gives you 155Mb/s to each individual subscriber. Verizon could deploy that tail-circuit technology now - the gear exists. To my knowledge, neither DSL nor data over cable have fieldable, exists-right-now equipment that could deliver that kind of bandwidth to each individual subscriber over the infrastructure that exists today. I'm not sure that there exists any equipment even in lab/design phases that could deliver that kind of bandwidth to each individual subscriber over the infrastructure that exists today.

Cable-modem services are severely hampered in the upstream direction and will not be able to grow upload speeds nearly as fast as download speeds. This is due to physics and information theory. There's a wall, they haven't hit it yet, but they can and will, and FTTH doesn't have that particular wall.

That's reason #2 why I think VZ's competitors should be scared of fiber to the home. If VZ were to make it a race, and had the backbone to back it up, I don't think it's technologically possible for cable or DSL to keep up. There is a very real risk that VZ *will* make it a race, just because they can. (and maybe not back it up with the backbone, though )

The numbers I've seen say that, with current costs and take rates, VZ's FIOS ROI is positive after a few years. Assuming that continues to be the case, now they've got a shiny new fiber network, brought to 2005 levels, and a rickety old patchwork copper network, and there are plenty of areas using 100 year old wires. As customers in a market move from the old network to the new, what do you think happens to VZ's maintenance and service expenses? My guess is that the number of trouble calls goes down a lot, and especially the number of truck rolls goes down a lot. If that's the case, there will be major staff reductions. Meaning major cost savings to VZ. And you better believe the VZ's management is on that page, reduce cost-incurring risks, reduce staff to service those risks, save money. Step 3: Profit! Or they can lower costs and keep the same margins - while taking it to their competitors on price. They have a lot more flexibility on the financial side if they execute correctly on this one.

In parallel, VZ just bought a backbone and a bunch of solid peering. This will almost definitely increase their peering quality (a problem for all the residential-oriented ISPs) and do so on the long-term cheap (admittedly, one heck of a capex). Again, VZ can lower their costs.

That's reason #3 why I think VZ's competitors should be scared of fiber to the home. VZ has the potential to save themselves a lot of money with FIOS/FTTH on the tail circuits and the MCI acquisition on the backbone/peering side. This gives them much greater competitive flexibility on price - they can start a price war and gain market share, or they can keep the profits and look better to Wall Street than their competitors.

Now, lest you think I'm a complete fan, let me offer one big reason why VZ's competitors should not be scared of their fiber to the home. Imagine it in your best Lilly Tomlin voice: They are still, at the end of the day, The Phone Company. VZ's quite adept at having every possible advantage given to them and still screwing things up hugely.

kevnich2, I too have seen numbers of about $2k-$3k per home passed. Yes, that's a lot of money. But that's what capital is for. You have to spend money to make money. If they can spend that kind of money now, totally one-up their compeititors and gain a lot more market share, while lowering their own labor and equipment costs from the old copper plant, in the long run it's a brilliant business move.

It really comes down to three things:

#1. What do their competitors do? If Comcast next year decides to do FTTH also, then VZ's advantages could vanish. Barring that, for now, VZ's competitors can do many things to try to compete, and those things might be more or less successful. Even if the cable companies are completely foolish, they'll get some customes, just because some people totally hate VZ.

#2. What's the long-term average revenue per FIOS customer / can they increase their average? If 25% of the homes passed end up spending $150-$200/month with VZ for PSTN+Internet+TV+premium TV channels, VZ is doing well. If they have a 75% take rate but those people are only buying the $35/month Internet service, VZ's ROI just pushed way out.

#3. Does VZ successfuly realize cost savings due to this capex? Reducing staff isn't easy or cheap. FIOS may end up having different problems requiring truck rolls. VZ may just be business-stupid. If they can implement cost savings equal to $100-$200/year per home passed on average, that helps their ROI. But they could fail to do so. Or even increase their costs if they're really foolish.

Now, all business armchair quarterbacking aside, in my market, I have four connectivity choices:

#1. FIOS. 15/2 for $40/mo, 30/5 for $60/mo, if memory serves. (I'm getting 15/2 business for $100/mo).
#2. Adelphia cable modem, which is slow and VERY unreliable here (several neighbors have converted to FIOS, and every one has done so because of reliability problems that Adelpha simply can't fix). $55/mo. I don't know the exact speeds, but about 3Mb/s down and 128kb/s up.
#3. Local wireless ISP. 256kb/s for $70/mo. Nice guys.
#4. DSL.NET SDSL 512kb/s for $200/mo. Not a nice company. Customer service as bad as VZ, worse reliability, higher cost.

Now, in my market, FIOS is the far and away superior choice. Once the Adelphia sale is complete, we become a Comcast market, and it remains to be seen what happens - even if Comcast made it a top priority to fix things here, it will take time. And then where will they be? Not quite able to offer what FIOS can today. Show me a cable company with 5Mb/s per subscriber upload - I'm not aware of any.
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
5
76
Originally posted by: cmetz
spidey07, it's true that cable companies are currently focused on their backbones and peering. That's their hottest problem right now. They killed off @Home, who had a decent backbone and good peering, and thought that it would be easy to build replacement backbones/peering in house. Well, that didn't work out so well.

LOL, what do you think they wanted me to do???? Nothing but peering and traffic engineering.

Nice post, aaa+
 

Jeraden

Platinum Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,518
1
76
I'm supposed to be getting FIOS installed next tuesday, so we'll see how it goes.
 

TheToOTaLL

Platinum Member
Oct 7, 2001
2,246
2
0
Just out of curiousity, all of you FIOS subscribers, what is Verizon's take on issuing multiple IPs and not restricting ports for using it for hosting your own servers?
 

halfadder

Golden Member
Dec 5, 2004
1,190
0
0
I can't speak for FiOS, but I have a buddy with "20 Mbit" down, 1 Mbit up cable modem in an area where TimeWarner is competing with Verizon's FiOS.

His real-world downlods are usually closer to 9 Mbit, but he has had a few as high as 18.5 Mbit. He is allowed only one IP address and servers may be run for "personal" use. Additional IPs require upgrading the service to business-class service, which uses the same hardware but costs MUCH more. Business class service also would allow running servers for commercial use.
 
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