Vertical Sync - biggest HIT

garkon8

Member
Oct 5, 2004
77
0
0
Why is it that enabling vertical sync is still the biggest "hit" on fps? No matter which game Half Life 2, F.E.A.R, Quake 4, DOOM 3, they all take a big penalty on fps with v-sync on. In F.E.A.R I heard a hundred times how much soft shadows impacted fps, but it can't compare to the hit I see from v-sync. It was the same on my 9800Pro and my 6800GT, is it getting better on the new cards? I'm curious to see how many others out there are irritated by this. I personally don't like to play any games with it off.
 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
I've never found it to have that much of a performance hit -- but if you run VSync without triple buffering, and your video card cannot keep up with the refresh rate, you'll generally run at close to half of the refresh rate. Many people see this behavior and erroneously assume that VSync is 'killing performance' on their card.

If, for instance, your video card can run a game at 60FPS average, and you turn on VSync at 75Hz without triple buffering, you will be forced down to 38FPS (or bounce back and forth between 38 and 75FPS). With triple buffering enabled, you would run at close to 60FPS all the time.
 
Mar 19, 2003
18,289
2
71
Unless your video card can sustain as many frames per second as the number of times your screen refreshes, framerates will be progressively cut in half unless you have Triple Buffering enabled. I always use Vsync (tearing is really bad on my monitor if I don't), and I was glad that Nvidia finally got around to adding Triple Buffering to the drivers a few releases back. It seems to work great in OpenGL games, perhaps less so in Direct3D games.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
do "you people" know at all what v-sync does ?

If i play HL2M in the 100s of FPS then vsync *of course* would give a big hit, because Vsync caps the FPS to what the monitor displays.
Since my gaming resolution is either 85hz or 80hz this would be a max of 80/85FPS. Basically sacrificing the rest of the FPS so the pictyre/frames is in sync with the monitor.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
is it getting better on the new cards? I'm curious to see how many others out there are irritated by this. I personally don't like to play any games with it off.

vsync is dependend on the monitor-frequency - and the newest and bestest card with vsync would not get "faster" with vsync on what your monitor is set at.

Btw. i have the same card as you, and why on earth would i want to cap myself down to my monitors frequency ? With HL2 and 6xAA in 1360/1024 and max settings i can easily run 100+ FPS....this would kind of defy the logic to get a fast card and then turn vsync on.

There WERE instances in the past where vsync on resulted in a more "stable" picture..eg. while scrolling etc....and otherwise you would see tearing....but nowadays wih the very high FPS and fast cards i i never saw tearing or similiar which would me want to turn on vsync

 

Trevelyan

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2000
4,077
0
71
Originally posted by: flexy
is it getting better on the new cards? I'm curious to see how many others out there are irritated by this. I personally don't like to play any games with it off.

vsync is dependend on the monitor-frequency - and the newest and bestest card with vsync would not get "faster" with vsync on what your monitor is set at.

Btw. i have the same card as you, and why on earth would i want to cap myself down to my monitors frequency ? With HL2 and 6xAA in 1360/1024 and max settings i can easily run 100+ FPS....this would kind of defy the logic to get a fast card and then turn vsync on.

There WERE instances in the past where vsync on resulted in a more "stable" picture..eg. while scrolling etc....and otherwise you would see tearing....but nowadays wih the very high FPS and fast cards i i never saw tearing or similiar which would me want to turn on vsync


I believe tearing has to down with your monitor, and the refresh rate it is set to, and nothing at all to do with your video card.

Turning on vsync basically puts a cap on the max framerate, but it does NOT change the minimum framerate.

For instance:

Vsync OFF:
Max framerate: 120fps
Min framerate: 50fps
Average: 85fps

Vsync ON:
Max framerate: 75fps (If monitor refresh rate is 75Hz)
Min framerate: 50fps
Average: 62.5fps

So basically, turning Vsync on is an easy way to increase visual quality (eliminate tearing) without hurting performance. Since 60fps is generally a good amount to be considered smooth, and even more so with 75fps, it is simply misunderstanding what vsync does to say that it "hurts performance".
 

Trevelyan

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2000
4,077
0
71
Originally posted by: garkon8
Why is it that enabling vertical sync is still the biggest "hit" on fps? No matter which game Half Life 2, F.E.A.R, Quake 4, DOOM 3, they all take a big penalty on fps with v-sync on. In F.E.A.R I heard a hundred times how much soft shadows impacted fps, but it can't compare to the hit I see from v-sync. It was the same on my 9800Pro and my 6800GT, is it getting better on the new cards? I'm curious to see how many others out there are irritated by this. I personally don't like to play any games with it off.

Okay, think of it this way.

Let's say your monitor's refresh rate is 85Hz. Now, let's say with Vsync=on you get 85fps steady, but with Vsync=off your get 100fps steady.

Which situation is more desirable? You may be inclined to say the 2nd, but the fact is, since your monitor's refresh rate is set to 85Hz, you are only seeing 85fps, regardless of what your video card is outputting. It is better to lock the framerate at 85fps on your video card, so it "syncs" with the monitor, displaying just the right amount of frames per second.

If your framerate is greater than your refresh rate, you will experience "tearing". You may not notice it, but it is there:

"Tearing is a video problem when the graphics card's frame rate is greater than the monitors refresh rate. This can cause images to appear "scratched" "cut up" or "stuck". Basicly, tearing happens when one section of the image does not transition to where it should be, and gets stuck on one spot of the screen for a short time. Tearing mainly affects textures that have vertical lines in them."

More info here.
 

Ichigo

Platinum Member
Sep 1, 2005
2,159
0
0
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Originally posted by: flexy
is it getting better on the new cards? I'm curious to see how many others out there are irritated by this. I personally don't like to play any games with it off.

vsync is dependend on the monitor-frequency - and the newest and bestest card with vsync would not get "faster" with vsync on what your monitor is set at.

Btw. i have the same card as you, and why on earth would i want to cap myself down to my monitors frequency ? With HL2 and 6xAA in 1360/1024 and max settings i can easily run 100+ FPS....this would kind of defy the logic to get a fast card and then turn vsync on.

There WERE instances in the past where vsync on resulted in a more "stable" picture..eg. while scrolling etc....and otherwise you would see tearing....but nowadays wih the very high FPS and fast cards i i never saw tearing or similiar which would me want to turn on vsync


I believe tearing has to down with your monitor, and the refresh rate it is set to, and nothing at all to do with your video card.

Turning on vsync basically puts a cap on the max framerate, but it does NOT change the minimum framerate.

For instance:

Vsync OFF:
Max framerate: 120fps
Min framerate: 50fps
Average: 85fps

Vsync ON:
Max framerate: 75fps (If monitor refresh rate is 75Hz)
Min framerate: 50fps
Average: 62.5fps

So basically, turning Vsync on is an easy way to increase visual quality (eliminate tearing) without hurting performance. Since 60fps is generally a good amount to be considered smooth, and even more so with 75fps, it is simply misunderstanding what vsync does to say that it "hurts performance".

Um no. In that case with v-sync on, the minimum would be 37fps. That's because anything under 75 fps is halved to sync with the monitor.
 
Oct 31, 2005
62
0
0
Seems like half the people don't even know what Vsync is.

Fact is, your monitor can't display more frames per second than it can refresh in one second. Omgoshzor I got 100 fpszor ! too bad your monitor can only display 75 of those 100 in one second (assuming it's running @ 75 hz). That's what causes vertical tearing.
 

Maetryx

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2001
4,849
1
81
I :heart: vsync. I enable it with drivers to get even games without the option to run in vsynch. I *prefer* slower framerate (even if noticeable, usually isn't) to tearing.
 

chinkgai

Diamond Member
Apr 4, 2001
3,904
0
71
oh nice, i found it, thanks synth!

if my pooter wasnt priming right now i'd fire up a game to test it...rargh
 

Trevelyan

Diamond Member
Dec 10, 2000
4,077
0
71
Originally posted by: Ichigo
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Originally posted by: flexy
is it getting better on the new cards? I'm curious to see how many others out there are irritated by this. I personally don't like to play any games with it off.

vsync is dependend on the monitor-frequency - and the newest and bestest card with vsync would not get "faster" with vsync on what your monitor is set at.

Btw. i have the same card as you, and why on earth would i want to cap myself down to my monitors frequency ? With HL2 and 6xAA in 1360/1024 and max settings i can easily run 100+ FPS....this would kind of defy the logic to get a fast card and then turn vsync on.

There WERE instances in the past where vsync on resulted in a more "stable" picture..eg. while scrolling etc....and otherwise you would see tearing....but nowadays wih the very high FPS and fast cards i i never saw tearing or similiar which would me want to turn on vsync


I believe tearing has to down with your monitor, and the refresh rate it is set to, and nothing at all to do with your video card.

Turning on vsync basically puts a cap on the max framerate, but it does NOT change the minimum framerate.

For instance:

Vsync OFF:
Max framerate: 120fps
Min framerate: 50fps
Average: 85fps

Vsync ON:
Max framerate: 75fps (If monitor refresh rate is 75Hz)
Min framerate: 50fps
Average: 62.5fps

So basically, turning Vsync on is an easy way to increase visual quality (eliminate tearing) without hurting performance. Since 60fps is generally a good amount to be considered smooth, and even more so with 75fps, it is simply misunderstanding what vsync does to say that it "hurts performance".

Um no. In that case with v-sync on, the minimum would be 37fps. That's because anything under 75 fps is halved to sync with the monitor.

Um no.

Triple buffering fixes that problem and will output 50fps even with vsync on.
 

garkon8

Member
Oct 5, 2004
77
0
0
Hey, thanks for all the replies and crash course on v-sync. But, please explain to me how I can get 82.0 fps with vsync-off and 53.8 fps with vsync-on in Doom3. If I'm understanding your logic, turning v-sync on caps your fps at your monitors refresh rate, correct? If my fps are capped at 75 (my monitors current refresh rate), than should I not still be able to get up to 75 with vsync-on?

Monitor: Viewsonic Ultrabrite A90f+ (sweet CRT) current refresh rate 75htz
Doom3 at 1280x1024 high quality settings:
vsync-off 82.0 fps
vsync-on 53.8 fps

I still hold true to my belief that vsync-on looks better than off; I'm using the "saw it with my one eyes" defense.
 

gac009

Senior member
Jun 10, 2005
403
0
0
Originally posted by: Ichigo
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Originally posted by: flexy
is it getting better on the new cards? I'm curious to see how many others out there are irritated by this. I personally don't like to play any games with it off.

vsync is dependend on the monitor-frequency - and the newest and bestest card with vsync would not get "faster" with vsync on what your monitor is set at.

Btw. i have the same card as you, and why on earth would i want to cap myself down to my monitors frequency ? With HL2 and 6xAA in 1360/1024 and max settings i can easily run 100+ FPS....this would kind of defy the logic to get a fast card and then turn vsync on.

There WERE instances in the past where vsync on resulted in a more "stable" picture..eg. while scrolling etc....and otherwise you would see tearing....but nowadays wih the very high FPS and fast cards i i never saw tearing or similiar which would me want to turn on vsync


I believe tearing has to down with your monitor, and the refresh rate it is set to, and nothing at all to do with your video card.

Turning on vsync basically puts a cap on the max framerate, but it does NOT change the minimum framerate.

For instance:

Vsync OFF:
Max framerate: 120fps
Min framerate: 50fps
Average: 85fps

Vsync ON:
Max framerate: 75fps (If monitor refresh rate is 75Hz)
Min framerate: 50fps
Average: 62.5fps

So basically, turning Vsync on is an easy way to increase visual quality (eliminate tearing) without hurting performance. Since 60fps is generally a good amount to be considered smooth, and even more so with 75fps, it is simply misunderstanding what vsync does to say that it "hurts performance".

Um no. In that case with v-sync on, the minimum would be 37fps. That's because anything under 75 fps is halved to sync with the monitor.


Um no. Thats what triple buffering is for.

edit: damn diddnt scroll all the way down before making my comment.
 

flexy

Diamond Member
Sep 28, 2001
8,464
155
106
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Which situation is more desirable? You may be inclined to say the 2nd, but the fact is, since your monitor's refresh rate is set to 85Hz, you are only seeing 85fps, regardless of what your video card is outputting. It is better to lock the framerate at 85fps on your video card, so it "syncs" with the monitor, displaying just the right amount of frames per second.

i dont agree with that philosophy.

FPS is *not* only what the monitor is capable of displaying....FPS is also what a game-engine *internally* produces...short, how fast a game-engine runs.

Some people sound like it it's pointless to have 100+ FPS etc. "because the monitor cant display that anyway [because the monitor is only at 80 or so]"...but this logic is wrong.

See a typical game-engine as a program loop where all the specific calculations are done, and when one loop is done the engine "puts out" a frame to the gfx-card.

If the FPS is artifically capped with vsync the game/game-engine is actually slowed down...it (CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG !) waits until its in sync with the electron beam (vsync of the monitor) and THEN gives out the frame.

If this artifically "brake" is not on then the engine just runs and puts out the frame as quick as it can.

I see certainly an *advantage* in higher FPS because everything is snappier/faster...reaction times are better and you might have an advantage in certain games compared to if you'd run it with LOW FPS.

It does not really matter that your monitor is actually not capable of "showing" 120 frames/sec...but then this is really not important......again..why artifically capping my FPS ?

THEN - on the other hand there MIGHT be situations where a wide range of varying FPS (eg. HL2 can go very slow from in the 30s to 130s) can be more distracting....then turning vsync ON might help even the whole game out a bit (at the cost of max FPS in certain areas)...MAYBE.

 

Matthias99

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2003
8,808
0
0
Originally posted by: SPARTAN VI
Originally posted by: Trevelyan
Um no.

Triple buffering fixes that problem and will output 50fps even with vsync on.


Beat me to it.

Originally posted by: garkon8
Hey, thanks for all the replies and crash course on v-sync. But, please explain to me how I can get 82.0 fps with vsync-off and 53.8 fps with vsync-on in Doom3. If I'm understanding your logic, turning v-sync on caps your fps at your monitors refresh rate, correct? If my fps are capped at 75 (my monitors current refresh rate), than should I not still be able to get up to 75 with vsync-on?

Monitor: Viewsonic Ultrabrite A90f+ (sweet CRT) current refresh rate 75htz
Doom3 at 1280x1024 high quality settings:
vsync-off 82.0 fps
vsync-on 53.8 fps

I still hold true to my belief that vsync-on looks better than off; I'm using the "saw it with my one eyes" defense.

Simple. Sure you can hit 82fps with vsync off, but that does not mean you're at a constant 82fps. Constant being the uber-key-bolded-word here. You could be staring at the floor in CS:S and hitting 100fps, look up and get into a gun fight, then you're at 20fps, no wait, 21, no, 29, oh no someone else jumped in, 14, everyone's pwnt so, 30... Your framerate is constantly changing.

When v-sync is enabled, you're not just "capping" your framerate at your monitor's refresh rate; v-sync does its work by both syncing with your monitor's refresh rate, and sustaining a constant framerate. For instance, traditional vsync tries to hold onto 60 frames per second. If it cannot sustain that constant 60 frames per second, it'll drop it in half, 30fps. If it still can't hold onto 30fps, down to 15. The aforementioned triple buffering is a neat feature that allows us to vsync without halving our performance ( double buffering). Instead of dropping by halves, you'll drop by thirds. Instead of 60-30-15, it'll go 60-40-20 (assuming you're at 60Hz).

This is, basically, not very accurate.

With double buffering, your video card has to stop rendering whenever the backbuffer is filled and the monitor is not ready to refresh yet. With triple buffering, it can flip to the third buffer and start drawing the next frame there, and then when the monitor is ready to display, it takes the next available frame.

With double buffering, you can still have 'intermediate' frame rate values -- but usually you'll get into a state where the video card is too slow to fill a frame in a single refresh cycle, and then it will end up only being able to use every other cycle. If it's too slow to get every other cycle, you might get every third, or alternate between two and three refreshes per frame. If you get into a situation where your card is *sometimes* able to draw over the monitor's refresh rate, but sometimes not, the framerate will 'stutter' between, say, 60 and 30FPS many times per second, which creates annoying visual artifacts around moving objects (they seem to not move smoothly).

With triple buffering, it gets more complicated. With three buffers, your video card is more likely to be able to render almost all the time. For instance, if you are running at 100Hz (so it takes 10ms per frame), and your video card can render at 67FPS (so it needs ~15ms per frame), you'd get a result sort of like this:

time (ms)
0............10............20............30............40............50............60............70............80............90............100
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx11111111222222222222223333333344444444444455555555666666666 (frame being displayed)
1111111111122222222222333333333344444444444455555555555666666666xx77777777 (frame being rendered)

In this case, three out of every four frames were 'new' (which makes sense, since it is rendering at 3/4 of the refresh rate), and the card was able to render more or less continuously. If you took this out long enough, you'd end up with close to 75FPS being displayed.

With double buffering, it would look more like this:

time (ms)
0......10......20......30......40......50......60......70......80......90......100
xxxxxxxxxxx111111222222222233333333333444444444445555555 (frame being displayed)
1111111112222222233333333xx444444444xx555555555xx6666666 (frame being rendered)

In this case, you can see that every frame is going to be displayed twice, and the video card is going to sit idle for a short time at the end of rendering each frame (because it doesn't have the third buffer to start drawing into). But if you had a mix of frames where some of them took less time to render than the refresh rate, you might end up with an overall framerate of, say, 70FPS over time.
 

aatf510

Golden Member
Nov 13, 2004
1,811
0
0
Now I see why whenever I turn-on V-Sync in my 7800GT SLI system, BF2 lags like crap and become totally un-smooth.

Even in UT2004 where fps is contantly @ 60fps w/ V-Sync on, it's noticely less smooth then having V-Sync off,
 

ScrewFace

Banned
Sep 21, 2002
3,812
0
0
If you're averaging around 113 fps enable vsync as your fps will be as smooth as silk otherwise turn it off. Also, the resolution you're gaming at should be set at 70 hertz as this will make your game as smooth as a movie. Anything else and it'll be jerky.
 

gtx4u

Banned
Sep 8, 2005
272
0
0
Basically to put it.... if the game u play with doesn't have an average FPS higher than ur moniters refresh rate, turning on VSYNC isn't a neccesity.
 
sale-70-410-exam    | Exam-200-125-pdf    | we-sale-70-410-exam    | hot-sale-70-410-exam    | Latest-exam-700-603-Dumps    | Dumps-98-363-exams-date    | Certs-200-125-date    | Dumps-300-075-exams-date    | hot-sale-book-C8010-726-book    | Hot-Sale-200-310-Exam    | Exam-Description-200-310-dumps?    | hot-sale-book-200-125-book    | Latest-Updated-300-209-Exam    | Dumps-210-260-exams-date    | Download-200-125-Exam-PDF    | Exam-Description-300-101-dumps    | Certs-300-101-date    | Hot-Sale-300-075-Exam    | Latest-exam-200-125-Dumps    | Exam-Description-200-125-dumps    | Latest-Updated-300-075-Exam    | hot-sale-book-210-260-book    | Dumps-200-901-exams-date    | Certs-200-901-date    | Latest-exam-1Z0-062-Dumps    | Hot-Sale-1Z0-062-Exam    | Certs-CSSLP-date    | 100%-Pass-70-383-Exams    | Latest-JN0-360-real-exam-questions    | 100%-Pass-4A0-100-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-300-135-exams-date    | Passed-200-105-Tech-Exams    | Latest-Updated-200-310-Exam    | Download-300-070-Exam-PDF    | Hot-Sale-JN0-360-Exam    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Exams    | 100%-Pass-JN0-360-Real-Exam-Questions    | Dumps-JN0-360-exams-date    | Exam-Description-1Z0-876-dumps    | Latest-exam-1Z0-876-Dumps    | Dumps-HPE0-Y53-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-HPE0-Y53-Exam    | 100%-Pass-HPE0-Y53-Real-Exam-Questions    | Pass-4A0-100-Exam    | Latest-4A0-100-Questions    | Dumps-98-365-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-98-365-Exam    | 100%-Pass-VCS-254-Exams    | 2017-Latest-VCS-273-Exam    | Dumps-200-355-exams-date    | 2017-Latest-300-320-Exam    | Pass-300-101-Exam    | 100%-Pass-300-115-Exams    |
http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    | http://www.portvapes.co.uk/    |