very good read on why trump won. not liberal not conservative

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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
That's a damn solid article. For 4 months I lived in a small town in middle-Illinois, population 1,200, and the town was just depression. There was a single factory that employed the whole town, and the factory had closed down a decade earlier, and there was nothing left. You'd stroll through town pick up mail from the post office, stop at church, pop into the bar for a drink, then buy your groceries at the gas station. That's all that was there.

The economics that make inner-cities work, devastates countryside towns. The economics that make countryside towns work, devastates inner-cities.
 
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Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,034
2,613
136
If that's the case there's no reason for him to cheat/con small contractors out of what are pennies to him.
He has a notorious history of doing just this. In fact with his choices for cabinets that the press are discussing, his ongoing lawsuits with trump U and his golf course in Florida, Trump's stated plans to dismantle work and environmental safety regulations , etc etc I see nothing but more of the same.

People tell you who they are everyday with what they say and what they do. Believe them.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
My big problem with Trump-and I'm sure a lot of thinking people feel the same-is not so much his stated philosophies, which are very few, extremely vague and often contradictory. It's that he seems to think at most one or two steps at a time, has no concept of unintended consequences, his factual foundation is almost total BS based on the internet equivalent of a supermarket tabloid.

An ill informed, narcissistic, rash and judgmental leader may be acceptable for North Korea or it's like but not for the country that is currently the dominant power in the world. And a cabinet who's core is Giuliani (talked about for Justice), Gingrich (talked about for State) and Christie-well we are well on the way to the most partisan Cabinet since Nixon and the most corrupt since the second half of the 1800s.

I think a lot of people voted for him for the same reason GWB won-they felt he'd be a great guy to have a drink with while he ran against someone who was a stiff of a personality.

As far as oligopoly promotion goes, that's been the central function of his entire life-he knows how to game the system inside and out, and promotion of his personal and family wealth is the number one concern.

I pity the people who actually believed the fantasy he is going to bring small town manufacturing back. We can't compete against countries that pay pennies per hour no matter how protectionist Trump gets with his tariffs. Never going to happen except in isolated instances, no matter who is president.
Your biggest problem with Trump is that he isn't a Democrat.

Pretty easy to fit the data points to the curve when they are actually in a straight line.
 

JSt0rm

Lifer
Sep 5, 2000
27,399
3,947
126
The economics that make inner-cities work, devastates countryside towns. The economics that make countryside towns work, devastates inner-cities.

This line is why we all wage war here. We just dont understand the issues each of us have.

Not that I'll stop or anything
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
LOL not even close. I know Trump was well over 60%, it might have been over 70%, in my county. It wasn't much different the last two elections.

The "very rural" population is shrinking, but areas like mine where people can either telecommute or create a small business serving the local community are not. I'm about 60 miles from a big city but really have no reason to go there any more. I'm not into the arts scene, too old for concerts these days, so other than an occasional business meeting or flight, there's just no appeal. My area has about all the shopping I need, anything else is a quick Amazon order.

While neither of the major party candidates got my vote this year, it was people like me and my neighbors who put Trump in the White House, for better or worse.
lol Describes me to a T, except I consider Chattanooga to be a big city. (Where I grew up, the nearest town was maybe 8,000.) But I actually live out in a very small, unincorporated bedroom suburb. All the big city amenities (well, Chattanooga-sized big) for a ten to thirty minute drive.

China is now the largest manufacturer in the world. There has been a paradigm shift that most Americans have not realized yet. China will be a power the likes of which the world has never seen. It is weird to be at the point in history where one empire died and a new one replaced it. Ours lasted for about a century so we didn't do too bad.

It is going to get real friggin scary when China decides to put all their manufacturing expertise into building a war machine that supercedes our own. It is inevitable.
I think we may avoid replaying World War II with us as the technologically advanced but manufacturing poor loser simply because by the time China is capable of projecting that level of force this far against this advanced a military, they'll already own everything here worth owning. Why break your own stuff to gain control of a whiny, entitled bunch of brats?

I agree that education opportunities need to be increased in rural areas but you also have to look at the take up. You pointed out rightly that the current kinds of jobs like lumber or steel or mining are gone. It takes a certain resiliency to channel your skills to a new field and knowing the mindset of people who choose to stay in these areas it's going to be hard. You could argue that if they wanted to keep up the standard of living of their families they would have considered relocating for work.

I won't disagree with your premise about the rate of automation. It's going to take a long amount of time. My point is that rural communities as we know them might not be viable. You can drop server farms on these places but how many actual people would be needed to staff such a highly automated operation? Maybe 20? Is that a community? I see it almost like an oil rig, just drop 20 people in there and cart in all your supplies. Would such a town need a physical bank? It can be done online. Can 20-100 people sustain even one fast food restaurant? You're mentioning things which are highly automated like wind farms. Those will not save communities only prolong them until such time that only the server farm is left. Those sectors need land not people.

Once we are so automated that a basic income is needed then people can live where they want assuming they can afford to have their stuff shipped over to them.

But until then these places will have to shrink as they have been for decades. It wasn't that long ago that more than 50% of people were employed in rural areas in the agricultural sector. Right now maybe 15% of the population lives in these areas. Why? Farming is already automated. It will continue to shrink that way. Someone else made the excellent point that many modern jobs require a certain population density and a certain critical mass of people in an area.

There are rural jobs and its the same story as the cities and in fact its even more stark. In a small town it seems maybe a 100 or people make all the real money: the doctors, lawyers, brokers, business owners and everyone else is working at near minimum wage or generally kept under $50k with no real room to grow that outside of getting to city for either more pay or more experience or both. At least in the cities you can still see people in all parts of the income spectrum. No doubt the disparity is huge even there but at least there are jobs that go above $50k to around $150 to 200k. In a rural area you have to be one of those professional people or business owner to crack a certain income.

The jobs I think that will be last to be automated are the trades like electrician or plumber and healthcare because ultimately its a human contact thing. Robots might do the surgeries and even make the diagnoses and dispense medications but a person would be needed to talk to/reassure the people and double check the robots' work. I just don't see robots going in and figuring out an existing wiring installation and getting in there and drawing wires and doing the connections. The complexity of such a robot going into a myriad of homes and businesses and repairing things would be too high and thus too expensive. They would be great maybe for new electrical installations where the whole system is designed for robots.

Urban jobs especially creativity and collaboration based jobs are pretty immune from robots. We might get Watson to come up with a recipe or even create a cartoon series but it would generally be terrible. Those people who choose to work would be rewarded handsomely. Thus everyone would want such jobs but there wont be enough to go around and the world would be split even further into employed and non working. This would only increase income disparity.

The supply of labor already exceeds what we need that's why so many are unemployed, underemployed and have dropped out of the labor market altogether. That's also why a large proportion of jobs are basically minimum wage or minimum wage plus $2-10.
Some damned good points and well thought out posts here, thanks. I'll point out a couple of trends though. First, both fast food and server positions are squarely in the aim of automation now. Second, one major trend in Japan is in service bots, because of their aging population and desire to severely limit immigration. Nursing homes may soon be reliant on robots rather than minimum wage aides. A lot of city jobs are fairly immune to automation, but highly vulnerable to outsourcing. We already see that in engineering with minority participation, where a talented and entrepreneurial young black or Hispanic PE can get a cubby office in any city and offer both minority and local participation in enough depth for the corporation's coveted handshake photograph. Right now the actual work is typically farmed out to large American firms, with the face taking 5% to 10% off the top for very little work and overhead. But there's no technical reason that work could not be farmed out to India, China, etc. as long as those doing the work are proficient in American engineering and codes. We've already seen that with document scanning, where Indian CAD drafters have largely replaced sophisticated automation programs recreating scanned documents. The firm we use does that and produces a much superior product for almost as low a cost.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
Everyone should bow to to people who live in urban areas. Then I will laugh as the people who have chosen a rural existence one day decide to not wake up at the butt crack of dawn and harvest food for the urbanites.

Why would they decide not to do that? And you think the crops wouldn't get harvested if that occurred? That the government wouldn't send in people (perhaps inmates) to harvest those crops? What exactly is your point? Farmers provide a product/service just like everybody else. The fact that their product is food does not make them a single bit better or worse than anybody else.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
Some damned good points and well thought out posts here, thanks. I'll point out a couple of trends though. First, both fast food and server positions are squarely in the aim of automation now. Second, one major trend in Japan is in service bots, because of their aging population and desire to severely limit immigration. Nursing homes may soon be reliant on robots rather than minimum wage aides. A lot of city jobs are fairly immune to automation, but highly vulnerable to outsourcing. We already see that in engineering with minority participation, where a talented and entrepreneurial young black or Hispanic PE can get a cubby office in any city and offer both minority and local participation in enough depth for the corporation's coveted handshake photograph. Right now the actual work is typically farmed out to large American firms, with the face taking 5% to 10% off the top for very little work and overhead. But there's no technical reason that work could not be farmed out to India, China, etc. as long as those doing the work are proficient in American engineering and codes. We've already seen that with document scanning, where Indian CAD drafters have largely replaced sophisticated automation programs recreating scanned documents. The firm we use does that and produces a much superior product for almost as low a cost.

I hadn't considered that but you're right. There's no reason many of those city jobs couldn't be done elsewhere. What this means for us is pretty terrible. Our standards of living will ultimately meet right in the middle. Think of all the resources we have amongst 320M being spread out to about 2.5 Billion people.

It's a very pessimistic way of looking at it but I'd love to entertain any comments on why I would be wrong.

I think everything we have to this moment came from victory in WW2. Absent some other new action like that I don't see us maintaining this standard of living.

Maybe a protectionist stance is the only way to preserve what we have.
 
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werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I hadn't considered that but you're right. There's no reason many of those city jobs couldn't be done elsewhere. What this means for us is pretty terrible. Our standards of living will ultimately meet right in the middle. Think of all the resources we have amongst 320M being spread out to about 2.5 Billion people.

It's a very pessimistic way of looking at it but I'd love to entertain any comments on why I would be wrong.

I think everything we have to this moment came from victory in WW2. Absent some other new action like that I don't see us maintaining this standard of living.
Agreed, but I see three possibilities. First is gloom and doom: we stay on this course until foreign entities own virtually everything and we have no more credit, at which time America exists as Bangladesh without the sweat shops. It's the grinding poverty and hopelessness of the inner city ghettos without anywhere to which we can escape. Second, we have some sort of revolution where we take back everything, even though morally we no longer own it. Third, we actually succeed in providing enough wealth that a basic income offering a decent standard of living (think upper lower class to lower middle class) is actually practical.

We're a very large and very wealthy nation, so you and I will be long dead before either of these things happen. Rome didn't fall in a day or even in a century, and except for the conquered lands, we're Rome on steroids.
 

Yakk

Golden Member
May 28, 2016
1,574
275
81
If that's the case there's no reason for him to cheat/con small contractors out of what are pennies to him.

People like that are always after more money, and he just got the office of the US presidency to leverage.

Any contractor who's ever bid on any Trump related projects knows beforehand Trump Enterprises does not pay their project retainer, and so they increase their project submissions accordingly. Silly, but you work with it.
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,300
5,730
136
China is now the largest manufacturer in the world. There has been a paradigm shift that most Americans have not realized yet. China will be a power the likes of which the world has never seen. It is weird to be at the point in history where one empire died and a new one replaced it. Ours lasted for about a century so we didn't do too bad.

It is going to get real friggin scary when China decides to put all their manufacturing expertise into building a war machine that supercedes our own. It is inevitable.

remember people saying the same things about japan 30 years ago?

didn't pan out.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
remember people saying the same things about japan 30 years ago?

didn't pan out.

Huge differences between those two. Japan never had the population or manpower to pull it off. Japan can't even replace its population right now. And population rates are dropped by worldwide. Which means most places will go into that same kind of deflation or stagflation.

The economic system as we have it is a Ponzi scheme. It requires population growth to sustain it.
 

brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,300
5,730
136
entertaining article.

i prefer to partake in both worlds - live in a rural area and work in a big city.

that way i can make more at my job but spend less to live, not have to live close to 50k people, not have to put up with all the crime and pollution, and enjoy the peace and quiet and relative solitude of farm country
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
126
remember people saying the same things about japan 30 years ago?

didn't pan out.

Japan didn't have a population 4X greater than ours and natural resources that rival or surpass our own. Theoretically China could have an economy 4X greater than ours when their people achieve a comparable standard of living. Soak that in for a second....... That would make them more powerful than Europe and America combined.....
 
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brianmanahan

Lifer
Sep 2, 2006
24,300
5,730
136
The economic system as we have it is a Ponzi scheme. It requires population growth to sustain it.

luckily there are a good amount of first world countries that are predicted to continue population growth through 2100. that includes the US, canada, UK, australia. and africa is set to explode in population.

meanwhile, china is expected to decline. the 1 kid per family thing they pulled for many years will have that effect.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
Agreed, but I see three possibilities. First is gloom and doom: we stay on this course until foreign entities own virtually everything and we have no more credit, at which time America exists as Bangladesh without the sweat shops. It's the grinding poverty and hopelessness of the inner city ghettos without anywhere to which we can escape. Second, we have some sort of revolution where we take back everything, even though morally we no longer own it. Third, we actually succeed in providing enough wealth that a basic income offering a decent standard of living (think upper lower class to lower middle class) is actually practical.

We're a very large and very wealthy nation, so you and I will be long dead before either of these things happen. Rome didn't fall in a day or even in a century, and except for the conquered lands, we're Rome on steroids.


I agree it won't happen soon. But we are already feeling the decline. We will feel it more before we pass.
 

mect

Platinum Member
Jan 5, 2004
2,424
1,636
136
I agree that education opportunities need to be increased in rural areas but you also have to look at the take up. You pointed out rightly that the current kinds of jobs like lumber or steel or mining are gone. It takes a certain resiliency to channel your skills to a new field and knowing the mindset of people who choose to stay in these areas it's going to be hard. You could argue that if they wanted to keep up the standard of living of their families they would have considered relocating for work.

I won't disagree with your premise about the rate of automation. It's going to take a long amount of time. My point is that rural communities as we know them might not be viable. You can drop server farms on these places but how many actual people would be needed to staff such a highly automated operation? Maybe 20? Is that a community? I see it almost like an oil rig, just drop 20 people in there and cart in all your supplies. Would such a town need a physical bank? It can be done online. Can 20-100 people sustain even one fast food restaurant? You're mentioning things which are highly automated like wind farms. Those will not save communities only prolong them until such time that only the server farm is left. Those sectors need land not people.

Once we are so automated that a basic income is needed then people can live where they want assuming they can afford to have their stuff shipped over to them.

But until then these places will have to shrink as they have been for decades. It wasn't that long ago that more than 50% of people were employed in rural areas in the agricultural sector. Right now maybe 15% of the population lives in these areas. Why? Farming is already automated. It will continue to shrink that way. Someone else made the excellent point that many modern jobs require a certain population density and a certain critical mass of people in an area.

There are rural jobs and its the same story as the cities and in fact its even more stark. In a small town it seems maybe a 100 or people make all the real money: the doctors, lawyers, brokers, business owners and everyone else is working at near minimum wage or generally kept under $50k with no real room to grow that outside of getting to city for either more pay or more experience or both. At least in the cities you can still see people in all parts of the income spectrum. No doubt the disparity is huge even there but at least there are jobs that go above $50k to around $150 to 200k. In a rural area you have to be one of those professional people or business owner to crack a certain income.

The jobs I think that will be last to be automated are the trades like electrician or plumber and healthcare because ultimately its a human contact thing. Robots might do the surgeries and even make the diagnoses and dispense medications but a person would be needed to talk to/reassure the people and double check the robots' work. I just don't see robots going in and figuring out an existing wiring installation and getting in there and drawing wires and doing the connections. The complexity of such a robot going into a myriad of homes and businesses and repairing things would be too high and thus too expensive. They would be great maybe for new electrical installations where the whole system is designed for robots.

Urban jobs especially creativity and collaboration based jobs are pretty immune from robots. We might get Watson to come up with a recipe or even create a cartoon series but it would generally be terrible. Those people who choose to work would be rewarded handsomely. Thus everyone would want such jobs but there wont be enough to go around and the world would be split even further into employed and non working. This would only increase income disparity.

The supply of labor already exceeds what we need that's why so many are unemployed, underemployed and have dropped out of the labor market altogether. That's also why a large proportion of jobs are basically minimum wage or minimum wage plus $2-10.
Why are creative and collaborative jobs necessarily urban jobs? Historically, they were Urban jobs because you needed a large concentration of people. With modern communication, this is becoming less and less the case. There is no need for these areas to shrink unless we get stuck in the mindset that rural areas have to keep doing what they have always done. You keep mentioning all the rural jobs that have been automated, but the same applies to urban jobs equally well. The difference is the jobs replacing the automated jobs have all been centered in Urban areas. This doesn't have to be the case.

The point I'm trying to make is that modern technology doesn't have to mean the death of rural life. In my opinion, techology should be applied for the betterment of society, not to simply increase output. While many prefer cities, there are others that prefer rural areas. I'm fortunate enough that I was able to find good professional work in a rural setting. The problem is that it will be challenging for my kids to do so if they want. Rather than just accept current circumstances as they are, I prefer to try to find solutions to improve the circumstances. No, an individual server farm might not make a difference. Wind farms by themselves might not make a difference. But the combination of several different high tech sectors in combination with the rural jobs that remain and working to bring urban jobs into rural settings can make a difference.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
luckily there are a good amount of first world countries that are predicted to continue population growth through 2100. that includes the US, canada, UK, australia. and africa is set to explode in population.

meanwhile, china is expected to decline. the 1 kid per family thing they pulled for many years will have that effect.

I don't know. Europe is a foregone conclusion not even debatable. But from what I've read our population will be shrinking around 2030-2040.

Among certain demographic groups, socio economic groups the population is already declining. The growth is coming from poorer segments. It's just like that movie ideocracy was about. As it stands we can barely afford the people we have yet we need more to keep the system going. Something's got to give.
 

sxr7171

Diamond Member
Jun 21, 2002
5,079
40
91
Why are creative and collaborative jobs necessarily urban jobs? Historically, they were Urban jobs because you needed a large concentration of people. With modern communication, this is becoming less and less the case. There is no need for these areas to shrink unless we get stuck in the mindset that rural areas have to keep doing what they have always done. You keep mentioning all the rural jobs that have been automated, but the same applies to urban jobs equally well. The difference is the jobs replacing the automated jobs have all been centered in Urban areas. This doesn't have to be the case.

The point I'm trying to make is that modern technology doesn't have to mean the death of rural life. In my opinion, techology should be applied for the betterment of society, not to simply increase output. While many prefer cities, there are others that prefer rural areas. I'm fortunate enough that I was able to find good professional work in a rural setting. The problem is that it will be challenging for my kids to do so if they want. Rather than just accept current circumstances as they are, I prefer to try to find solutions to improve the circumstances. No, an individual server farm might not make a difference. Wind farms by themselves might not make a difference. But the combination of several different high tech sectors in combination with the rural jobs that remain and working to bring urban jobs into rural settings can make a difference.

I agree with telecommuting and even future VR collaboration it's wouldn't be an issue. But then I read werepossum's post about how those urban jobs are easily sent out of the country. I guess if you can send the job to Rome, Wisconsin you can send it Beijing, China and get 7 workers for the price of one.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
Any contractor who's ever bid on any Trump related projects knows beforehand Trump Enterprises does not pay their project retainer, and so they increase their project submissions accordingly. Silly, but you work with it.

Would you say there's a lack of people who'll believe that a "successful" billionaire will do right by them?
 

Yakk

Golden Member
May 28, 2016
1,574
275
81
Would you say there's a lack of people who'll believe that a "successful" billionaire will do right by them?

That I would say it is a question of attitude, and goals, not money.

A professional politician will help people insofar as it helps themselves. Yet many probably started their career honestly wanting to help people. A billionaire may be a philanthropist, but... in this case. ..ummm... probably not.

I can't imagine how complex it must be to "honestly" work your way up in these huge political party ranks, be it republican or democrat in this case. These are literally multi-billion dollar organizations with a single goal of putting people in powerful management positions.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
12,203
1,242
86
That I would say it is a question of attitude, and goals, not money.
Notice they're literally rationalizing he won't screw them because he's already rich.

A professional politician will help people insofar as it helps themselves. Yet many probably started their career honestly wanting to help people. A billionaire may be a philanthropist, but... in this case. ..ummm... probably not.

I can't imagine how complex it must be to "honestly" work your way up in these huge political party ranks, be it republican or democrat in this case. These are literally multi-billion dollar organizations with a single goal of putting people in powerful management positions.

Yet, they think Trump is the one who's telling it like it is.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
89
91
That's a damn solid article. For 4 months I lived in a small town in middle-Illinois, population 1,200, and the town was just depression. There was a single factory that employed the whole town, and the factory had closed down a decade earlier, and there was nothing left. You'd stroll through town pick up mail from the post office, stop at church, pop into the bar for a drink, then buy your groceries at the gas station. That's all that was there.

The economics that make inner-cities work, devastates countryside towns. The economics that make countryside towns work, devastates inner-cities.
Cities implode because of high rents.
 
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