Veterans before immigrants?

[SMOGZINN]

I don't think throwing money at this issue is a fix.

I disagree. I think that throwing money at this issue would actually work better than just about anything else. Let me explain...

We've spent well north of a trillion dollars on the war on drugs, and drugs and substance abuse hasn't really diminished. People that are homeless very often fall into the category of those with mental issues and substance abusers, the two go hand in hand.

You are right that our vets have problems with drugs and mental health, but most vets drug and mental health problems are very different than that of the general population. In the general homeless population you have a lot of genetic and developmental mental health issues, but in vets what we see is primarily trauma based issues. PTSD and other related unresolved issues. The difference between these groups is that most of the worst genetic and developmental mental health issues have no good treatment, they need a lifetime of dedicated support that they mostly reject, while trauma based mental issues can be successfully treated and many would accept the treatment if offered (or failing that we could make it a mandatory part of leaving the military, which would actually be my primary suggestion).

Get rid of VA hospitals, provide insurance to veterans so they can get care whereever they want to go, and use the remainder to buy vets homes (for much, much, much less than 200k, offer them those mini homes) if you want after they complete a mandatory detox program for those with substance abuse problems. Problem solved.

This will not solve the problem. First off the VA serves a very specific purpose. Vets have some unique medical and mental needs that the general medical community is not able to meet, for that reason that VA is needed. We might want to expand the voucher program to allow those that have more general needs to use other medical facilities, but we already have some such programs in place.

The homeless and drug use are just symptoms of a larger problem. It is that underlying problem we need to work on. Just sticking them in a 12 step program and giving them a house is not going to fix it. We need to implement a better system of support for our vets. It needs to start before they even leave the military. There should be a mandatory 're-civilianization' program that all soldiers go through before being discharged. A program that includes mental health evaluations, civilian skill assessments, job placement assistance, and I am sure a host of other things I have not even thought of.

All of this is is stuff that throwing money at the problem can fix. We just don't have the will to do so.

 

[Jhhnn]

Why hav

It's amazing how you suddenly care about homeless vets. If I'd ever seen you take up the issue before I might think you actually gave a shit.

Deflection into personal attack, huh?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Those who ignore history...

What makes you think one dollar not spent on the wall would automatically go to benefit veterans. I’ve been waiting 20 years for VA reform. Not going to hold my breath that something now is going to magically change, and the Wall is completely irrelevant to this discussion. We could reallocate a lot of things to veterans.

That was stupid! Nobody ever said that would happen!
What was said was -- the money that Trump wants for the wall could be used better elsewhere!! Helping Veterans was just an example and a good example at that!!

 

[Starbuck1975]

That was stupid! Nobody ever said that would happen!
What was said was -- the money that Trump wants for the wall could be used better elsewhere!! Helping Veterans was just an example and a good example at that!!

So basically we’re politicizing veterans to score irrelevant points against a wall that will never be built.

 

[blackangst1]

Sadly, this is very true. The vast majority of homeless people aren't homeless because, " Fuck it. I'm gonna give up everything and go live on the streets."
Nope, drugs, alcohol, (just another type of drug) and mental illness are the major causes...

If it was just job loss from lack of jobs, that would be something the OP's idea would help with. Job loss from any of the 3 reasons I posted...not so much.

As a veteran, it pisses me off to see the government ask our youth to go into harm's way...then basically ignore them when they get hurt/injured/suffer mental problems as a result of that service. PTSD isn't just a buzzword...it's a very real problem.

Im not a vet (but thanks for your service) but I agree with this.

 

[Amused]

So basically we’re politicizing veterans to score irrelevant points against a wall that will never be built.

As usual, you have that exactly backwards. Vets were politicized by anti-immigration racists. I posted their propaganda as proof that it was widespread among the right-wing anti-immigration racists.

And as usual, you turned it around in the typical Orwellian doublespeak you've been programmed to do.

 

[Starbuck1975]

As usual, you have that exactly backwards. Vets were politicized by anti-immigration racists. I posted their propaganda as proof that it was widespread among the right-wing anti-immigration racists.

And as usual, you turned it around in the typical Orwellian doublespeak you've been programmed to do.

That’s not the case you made in the OP.

 

[Amused]

That’s not the case you made in the OP.

My OP:

Veterans before immigrants? (this is where I referenced the widely spread anti-immigration propaganda about vets before immigrants) (this is also where you look even stupider)

There are currently about 50,000 homeless veterans in the United states, accounting for approximately 9% of the total homeless population. The average cost of a home in the US is $272,900. To buy every homeless veteran a house would cost about 13.7 billion dollars.

A wall costs 70 billion. For 70 billion you could buy every homeless veteran a house, and pay them a yearly stipend for maintenance and property taxes and still have money left over.

Yet you want to spend $70 billion on a wall because "vets before immigrants"???

Stop claiming you care about veterans and stop using us as your political propaganda tool. (this is also where I referenced the widely spread anti-immigration propaganda about vets before immigrants)

 

[Starbuck1975]

My OP:

Veterans before immigrants? (this is where I referenced the widely spread anti-immigration propaganda about vets before immigrants) (this is also where you look even stupider)

Reference not found

Stop claiming you care about veterans and stop using us as your political propaganda tool. (this is also where I referenced the widely spread anti-immigration propaganda about vets before immigrants)

Again, reference not found. It’s not very clear who you are targeting.

 

[Amused]

Reference not found

Again, reference not found. It’s not very clear who you are targeting.

It's not my fault the very propaganda slogan in the wording I used wasn't reference enough for you.

Next time I'll draw you a picture and hire an interpretive dancer to help you understand better.

 

[senseamp]

Wouldn't buying homes for the veterans only encourage more people to go into the military instead of becoming productive members of society?

 

[1sikbITCH]

A Viet Nam vet told me last night that he believes that about 75% of the homeless are veterans who have seen war duty. They are mentally pretty messed up. Something needs to be done to help them, but I do not believe that providing a house is going to solve the very problems that got them to where they are. That would be akin to giving an alcoholic booze, or a degenerate gambler money. Something has caused these people to lose control of their lives and putting them in a house isn't going to resolve those issues. It's going to take a lot of work on the individual until there is a complete psychic change in them. Mental rehabilitation must come first, until they are once again capable of managing their lives. I can see where a person, once rehabilitated, could be given a leg up and some housing assistance, once they are ready. We should find a way to rehab these people into becoming productive again. Some are going to be a lost cause and should be put into an assisted living situation with disability benefits, enough to provide them some better quality of life. Its a sad and hopeless situation and they are all around me, where I live. I give things like clothes and personal hygiene things, when I can and have bought meals for some as well.

I agree with this. Many prisons could be replaced with psychiatric institutions. Release all the pot smokers and put all the homeless folks in rehab with a chance to graduate back into society.

 

[Amused]

I agree with this. Many prisons could be replaced with psychiatric institutions. Release all the pot smokers and put all the homeless folks in rehab with a chance to graduate back into society.

Agreed. However all of this would require funding.

70 Billion would go a LONG way to accomplishing it.

But hey... wall. amirite?

 

[JEDIYoda]

Wouldn't buying homes for the veterans only encourage more people to go into the military instead of becoming productive members of society?

So why are you putting down all the people who are serving in the military??? Do you hate the military?

 

[senseamp]

So why are you putting down all the people who are serving in the military??? Do you hate the military?

I don't hate them, but I also think they are bloated to the point that we don't derive benefit proportionate to our spending on the military, making them a net drain on productive society.
Most of the military action is there to provide jobs to unproductive areas of the country and funnel taxpayer money to the defense industrial complex. So I would prefer that people pursue careers that provide a net benefit to society, rather than risking life and limb in unproductive adventures and then becoming a lifetime burden on it.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Dang I agree with senseamp

 

[brycejones]

Get rid of VA hospitals, provide insurance to veterans so they can get care whereever they want to go, and use the remainder to buy vets homes (for much, much, much less than 200k, offer them those mini homes) if you want after they complete a mandatory detox program for those with substance abuse problems. Problem solved.

Why do you want to get rid of the VA? It has issues, but it is also one of the most economical deliverers of medical care in the entire country. Solve addiction with one simple detox program. Fucking brilliant.

Do you research anything before posting?

 

[brycejones]

Taking care of physically and mentally broken people who got that way serving their country is not hero worship, its simply the right thing to do.

Agree

 

[UglyCasanova]

Why do you want to get rid of the VA? It has issues, but it is also one of the most economical deliverers of medical care in the entire country. Solve addiction with one simple detox program. Fucking brilliant.

Do you research anything before posting?

Be cause it recreates what is already there. We have hospitals, there’s no reason to have separate hospitals. Just give them insurance and let them choose their own.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I don't hate them, but I also think they are bloated to the point that we don't derive benefit proportionate to our spending on the military, making them a net drain on productive society.
Most of the military action is there to provide jobs to unproductive areas of the country and funnel taxpayer money to the defense industrial complex. So I would prefer that people pursue careers that provide a net benefit to society, rather than risking life and limb in unproductive adventures and then becoming a lifetime burden on it.

You do realize that the military is often the only path available for people looking to escape the “unproductive” portions of the country, and that the majority of the rapid industrialization and infrastructure on both coasts is a direct result of military investment.

Also the top five states by defense spending, in billions, are Virginia, California, Texas, Maryland and Florida.

 

[senseamp]

You do realize that the military is often the only path available for people looking to escape the “unproductive” portions of the country, and that the majority of the rapid industrialization and infrastructure on both coasts is a direct result of military investment.
Also the top five states by defense spending, in billions, are Virginia, California, Texas, Maryland and Florida.

I understand that it's Keynesian stimulus, and I am not against the job program aspect of it. Why not just cut defense spending beyond what's needed for actual national defense and spend the rest of it directly on building American infrastructure or providing other useful services, so would be veterans can be employed on things of some benefit to America? Do we need to waste trillions of dollars and thousands of lives fighting people who basically didn't do anything to us while our infrastructure rots and undermines productivity? As far as top states, you have to look at it on per capita basis, not absolute numbers.

 

[Jhhnn]

You do realize that the military is often the only path available for people looking to escape the “unproductive” portions of the country, and that the majority of the rapid industrialization and infrastructure on both coasts is a direct result of military investment.

Also the top five states by defense spending, in billions, are Virginia, California, Texas, Maryland and Florida.

So what if we change part of the mission & fund the Army Corps of Engineers to create infrastructure rather than just burying more death in the desert?

 

[Starbuck1975]

So what if we change part of the mission & fund the Army Corps of Engineers to create infrastructure rather than just burying more death in the desert?

That is the Corps of Engineers mission, they unfortunately don’t get to write the checks. The Corps also lost a lot of their heavy assets and expertise during the downsizing of the mid to late 90s.

 

[Starbuck1975]

I understand that it's Keynesian stimulus, and I am not against the job program aspect of it. Why not just cut defense spending beyond what's needed for actual national defense and spend the rest of it directly on building American infrastructure or providing other useful services, so would be veterans can be employed on things of some benefit to America? Do we need to waste trillions of dollars and thousands of lives fighting people who basically didn't do anything to us while our infrastructure rots and undermines productivity? As far as top states, you have to look at it on per capita basis, not absolute numbers.

I am 100% behind repurposing defense dollars and reallocating them towards bold infrastructure projects that end our reliance on fossil fuels and combat climate change, and in the process create new jobs and opportunities. NASA is a great example of this.

 

[brycejones]

Be cause it recreates what is already there. We have hospitals, there’s no reason to have separate hospitals. Just give them insurance and let them choose their own.

So pay more because reasons?