Video released in fatal police shooting of unarmed Oklahoma man

[OutHouse]

I smell BS. Tasers work by disrupting voluntary control of muscles, not by causing pain.

Not only is the PCP narrative mostly another cop perpetuated myth, there hasn't been confirmation that PCP was found or taken by the victim.

pain is a part of the tazing, these airman faces do not follow your narrative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDpteEfB2-o

 

[Humpy]

Correct, Tasers do disrupt muscle control, but there is also a pain aspect as well. If the darts do not hit perfectly or there is not enough separation in the darts, the disruption does not happen to the effect that it freezes a person up completely.

As for the PCP "myth", there are plenty of videos out there of cops fighting with subjects high on PCP.

And I thought I read that PCP was found in the vehicle.

There are a bunch of drugs that make it harder to physically restrain someone, I'm not denying that at all.

Just meant that any discussion has to be tempered with the fact(?) that there has been no confirmation on what was found or if the victim was intoxicated. The immediate announcement that he appeared high and they found what appeared to be PCP is so predictable that it almost has to be ignored until confirmation.

The same with the connection between drugs and the failure of the taser. There are several reasons why the taser might not work, user error, malfunction, thick shirt, I'm sure you and others know more, but even if the victim truly could not feel any pain for whatever reason the taser would by its nature still have an effect.

 

[Humpy]

pain is a part of the tazing, these airman faces do not follow your narrative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDpteEfB2-o

Of course they are painful too.

 

[The Merg]

Well, it turns out that he had PCP in his system according to the autopsy report.

- Merg

 

[cirrrocco]

^ so what? So it is grounds for summary execution?

 

[skyking]

^ so what? So it is grounds for summary execution?

No, it helps explain his odd behavior. From what I heard, he was ODing on PCP. Not trying to defend anyone being killed, but PCP is a law officer's worst nightmare for unpredictable combative people.

 

[Jaskalas]

^ so what? So it is grounds for summary execution?

No, the second amendment is. Many people have guns, including police. So any movement not expected is considered reaching. Reaching is grounds for perceiving an immediate threat. Intentional, accidental, they cannot know that. All they can do is respond to what they see and/or perceive to be happening. When officers have reason to fear (reaching) they are going to open fire.

Many people, innocents included, die simply because guns are involved. Period. In simpleton terms you can call it "summary execution" but there's a long line of perfectly normal and logical reasoning behind why a gun was fired. If you want to prevent such deaths, the problem is not in the sound actions of an officer. The problem is in the setup that lead them to this situation in the first place.

You place officers in harms way in a country full of guns, and citizens will find themselves full of bullets.

 

[The Merg]

No, it helps explain his odd behavior. From what I heard, he was ODing on PCP. Not trying to defend anyone being killed, but PCP is a law officer's worst nightmare for unpredictable combative people.

That's all I was pointing out.

 

[The Merg]

The same with the connection between drugs and the failure of the taser. There are several reasons why the taser might not work, user error, malfunction, thick shirt, I'm sure you and others know more, but even if the victim truly could not feel any pain for whatever reason the taser would by its nature still have an effect.

While the Taser does work by disrupting muscle control, the spread of darts and the location of the darts will also determine if it completely disables someone or not. If someone is being actively fought, there's a good chance that the spread of the darts is not going to be perfect to allow for a complete muscle lock-up as the officer is not going to be "far" enough away from the subject.

As an example, there's the recent case of the subject that assaulted two officers in Chicago. He was Tased a total of three times and continued to fight the officers. It's been determined that he was on PCP as well.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...econd-guessing-themselves-20161006-story.html

- Merg

 

[Puffnstuff]

So you are down with cruel and unusual punishment. Just how far down that road are you willing to go? Crucifixion, putting people in cages and burning them alive, severing hands?

What do you imagine is achieved by giving the government the legal power to commit atrocities on its own citizens? I don't see any benefit at all.

Are you a born-again Christian? I suspect as much. I have seen great similarities between their worldview and the worldview of fundamentalist Muslims. If you are not, I apologize for the insinuation.

Please don't clump me together with those evangelical republican whack jobs. I was being over the top but what I am not backing away from is the need to hold people who commit unlawful acts against others accountable for their actions be they street thugs or thugs hiding behind a tin star.

 

[child of wonder]

Sad to see he was on PCP and TCP. Clearly this wasn't an instance of a perfectly harmless person being shot by police. I'm curious to see more evidence as to whether the officer followed procedure properly, if the vehicle window was open or closed, and testimony from witnesses as to if Crutcher had done anything violent or aggressive prior to any video footage beginning.

More investigation needed to determine if the officer committed a crime or not. Could go either way.

 

[The Merg]

Indications are that the window was closed at the time of the shooting. Unless she is able to articulate very well as to why he was an immediate threat at the time that she fired (and in court she just needs to be able to articulate it from her point of view), it is not going to go well for her in court.

There does not seem to be any indication that he was armed, that there was a weapon in the vehicle, or that he was going to assault anyone. He was acting strange, which we now know was most likely from the PCP, and not complying with her commands to come to her and not go to the car.

Now, since he was on PCP, there's a good chance that he was not going to comply with anything the police wanted and will most likely have fought any kind of effort to detain or arrest him, but that hadn't happened yet.

- Merg

 

[skyking]

^ In this particular case the prosecutors see it differently. She is being charged with manslaughter. Regardless of the outcome, it is the right thing to do.
It reminds me of the guy they shot in the tri cities who was throwing rocks at cars. The response was disproportionate, and the burning need to control the situation led to somebody's death.

 

[Humpy]

Once drugs are involved, because drugs are bad, most everyone loses the ability to think logically.

When killing civilians, always immediately begin the conversation by painting the suspect with drugs/mental illness and the cop with service/heroism and then say nothing more due to sanctity of the ongoing investigation.

If it turns out they were on drugs, great! If it turns out they weren't, that's okay too, because it was perceived that they were, and we all know that they most likely would have fought any kind of effort to detain or arrest.

 

[The Merg]

^ In this particular case the prosecutors see it differently. She is being charged with manslaughter. Regardless of the outcome, it is the right thing to do.

That was my point about her articulating what happened. Unless there is something we don't know about that she saw/heard/perceived, she is going to have a difficult time in court. And since we only get what the media feels like it wants us to know, there's a good chance we don't know the whole story.

- Merg

 

[Darwin333]

That was my point about her articulating what happened. Unless there is something we don't know about that she saw/heard/perceived, she is going to have a difficult time in court. And since we only get what the media feels like it wants us to know, there's a good chance we don't know the whole story.

- Merg

I'd bet money that if there were substantial mitigating circumstances that the police would have released them by now.


Edit: Also considering the reluctance almost all prosecutors have at perusing charges against police I highly doubt that there is something substantial that she could articulate that would change the "story".

 

[Darwin333]

This is a famous incident recorded on film which is very similar to the one in this thread. In the incident, a cop pulls over a driver. The driver gets out of his vehicle and acts erratically. The driver does not follow directions. The driver goes back to his vehicle. The driver comes out with a gun and eventually kills the officer. It is a gruesome video. The point being is that a cop gambles with their life if they let a suspect walk back to their vehicle without trying to stop them with force (including lethal force).

Remember this suspect was UNARMED all the way up to the point in which he armed himself. At which point, the cop was a dead man.

I just watched the youtube video of the incident, at 1:35 the officer yells "put the gun down" while the guy was still leaning inside of the truck. At that point he was well within his rights to use deadly force but he waited. He also didn't appear to be equipped with a taser, if he was he could/should/would have used it before the guy ever got back into the truck since he was acting all kinds of crazy and rushing at the officer. Hell I'd probably say he was justified if he shot when the guy rushed him.

Not to mention the guy was executed, one of only 56 at the time to be executed in Georgia, for his crime so justice was severely served.

Regardless, that is not a valid comparison to what happened in this story.

 

[Darwin333]

Well, it turns out that he had PCP in his system according to the autopsy report.

- Merg

Do you feel that should be a mitigating factor?

 

[skyking]

Do you feel that should be a mitigating factor?

It will be. I think the evidence in the form of the footage and crime scene evidence are what matters, but her defense attorneys would be incompetent if they did not use that.

 

[The Merg]

I'd bet money that if there were substantial mitigating circumstances that the police would have released them by now.


Edit: Also considering the reluctance almost all prosecutors have at perusing charges against police I highly doubt that there is something substantial that she could articulate that would change the "story".

I wouldn't necessarily put money on that. The charges in this case came out very quickly and the chief condemned the officer very quickly as well. How much of an investigation could have really have been done by then? The first statements about the subject possibly being on PCP actually were released by the officer's attorney and everyone immediately challenged that she was full of it. Well, she wasn't there.

- Merg

 

[The Merg]

Do you feel that should be a mitigating factor?

It definitely can. This is all an assumption, but maybe she had a very violent confrontation with someone on PCP in the past. Here she recognizes someone on PCP, the subject is much bigger than her, and is not complying with her commands and trying to get back in his vehicle. This does not mean that this subject is going to act just like the previous subject, but the courts have said that an officer's training and previous experience need to be considered when looking at the actions that they take and whether another reasonable officer would have acted in the same way. The big question is whether "another reasonable" officer would have acted in the same way.

- Merg

 

[Darwin333]

It definitely can. This is all an assumption, but maybe she had a very violent confrontation with someone on PCP in the past. Here she recognizes someone on PCP, the subject is much bigger than her, and is not complying with her commands and trying to get back in his vehicle. This does not mean that this subject is going to act just like the previous subject, but the courts have said that an officer's training and previous experience need to be considered when looking at the actions that they take and whether another reasonable officer would have acted in the same way. The big question is whether "another reasonable" officer would have acted in the same way.

- Merg

Well there were 3 other officers at the scene that didn't act in the same way, which also kind of defeats the argument of him being much bigger than her. Had she been alone I could understand that argument.