[VideoCardz]NVIDIA GP104 and first Polaris GPUs supposedly spotted on Zauba

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Feb 19, 2009
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All this huff and puff how the 980Ti is vastly better than Fury X is ridiculous.

Let me remind you all, of something that wasn't too long ago. When NV had the lead in multi-GPU, that was all that was important back then. Slower but smoother...

Now that Fury X in multi-GPU is FASTER AND SMOOTHER, it doesn't matter. Only single GPU matters.

Guaranteed if Pascal has an updated SLI that allows it to compete better in multi-GPU, suddenly that will be the goal post, because as we all know, enthusiasts who care about performance at ultra resolutions all need multi-GPUs! Let the peasants stick with their single cards...
 

Zanovar

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2011
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Real men use single cards.i kid.Lets not kid ourselves here the 980ti is the better card and at its price at the time i bought mine made sense.Ive just had a quick gander at current prices(uk prices),i would still recommend it over the furyx.uk buyer ofc.bit off t sorry folks.
 

Techhog

Platinum Member
Sep 11, 2013
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Clockspeeds don't matter?

Nope, they don't if the one with the slower speeds is still competitive or faster. Actual performance in its segment is what matters. It mattered a bit this gen due to overclocking headroom I admit, but clockspeeds on their own will never be a deciding factor for GPUs, just like they aren't for CPUs.
 
Aug 20, 2015
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All I said is it's obvious that AMD is pushing ahead with R&D. They had low level API 1st, HBM 1st, and now appear ahead on the next node (I say appear only because nVidia could theoretically be playing possum). That's not lagging in R&D. You've brought all of these other factors into the discussion that have nothing to do with what I said and in no way disproves it.
You said "I think this also should silence those who blabber on incessantly about AMD having no R&D budget so they can't compete. They were first out with a next gen graphics API, HBM, and it's looking now like 14nm FF".

I don't know what you think "compete" means, but with microprocessors, it means performance results. You not only attempted to belittle people concerned about AMD's R&D, but attempted to rebut the point of AMD not competing by listing off two things that still result in AMD losing (API, whereas Nvidia expertly implemented superior DX11 multithreading and are currently winning in the only two DX12 benchmarks out there; HBM that, for all the hype, ended up in a product that gets beaten in pretty much all performance results by Nvidia's product without it).

Then you stated one final claim (first to 14nm) that's both pure speculation on anyone's part, tells us nothing about the actual quality or relative timing of the competitors' products, and is the biggest jump to conclusion in this discussion.

Touting HBM and APIs as if the terms themselves mean anything while the GPU division factually isn't keeping up with their competitor's efficient and powerful designs while having the nerve to insult people who understand the importance of R&D in that predicament (can't afford to tape out new, more efficient designs; can't afford to redesign GCN on 28nm so that Fiji was actually an effective counter to GM200; can't afford to multithread DX11 drivers like Nvidia) is so wrong.

The only thing you can come up with is a massive leap to conclusion about yet another as-of-now meaningless claim based on nothing but your own interpretation of current rumors and limited information. And you treat that interpretation as if it ends the discussion on whether AMD have the R&D to compete even though we still know near nothing and have the events of 2015 demonstrating R&D's effect? Remember how baseless speculation and hype turned out with Fiji and HBM?

We all know nVidia sells more. That's not the point. It's just the only thing people have to fall back on when anything positive is pointed out about AMD.

You're right, it's not the point because I never mentioned Nvidia selling more. I'm talking about the aftermarket 980 Tis hands-down beating the Fury X in all currently-available measures (4K performance, 1440p performance, VRAM, power efficiency, DX11 draw call efficiency, per-transistor efficiency, DX12 performance, bang for buck, and manufacturing cost).

Nice straw man attempt though.



All this huff and puff how the 980Ti is vastly better than Fury X is ridiculous.

Let me remind you all, of something that wasn't too long ago. When NV had the lead in multi-GPU, that was all that was important back then. Slower but smoother...

Now that Fury X in multi-GPU is FASTER AND SMOOTHER, it doesn't matter. Only single GPU matters.

Guaranteed if Pascal has an updated SLI that allows it to compete better in multi-GPU, suddenly that will be the goal post, because as we all know, enthusiasts who care about performance at ultra resolutions all need multi-GPUs! Let the peasants stick with their single cards...

More logical fallacies? Another straw man attempt and goalpost moving in one post. Excluding your assumption or ridiculous generalization about what people in this thread trashing the Fury X (which I suppose is me; nice of you to quote me directly) thought in the past, we'll start with the obvious: multi-GPU support regardless of vendor tends to suck these days and single-GPU enthusiast setups are far from pointless or for "peasants". I've never thought so, many enthusiasts have never thought so, and strangely enough, Nvidia have also tended to hold the fastest single-GPU title throughout the past decade as well, so I don't know what you're getting at with your imaginary goal post moving about multi-GPU, as if it's even relevant to the here and now.

But let's play on your field, the so-called ultra-resolution, multi-GPU enthusiast Arena:

"Everything changes when overclocking comes into play. The GTX 980 Ti offers loads of overclocking headroom where as the Radeon R9 Fury X offers almost none.

As a result, when comparing average frame rates once overclocked, the GTX 980 Ti graphics cards became 11% faster on average. Games where the GTX 980 Ti SLI cards were previously slower, such as Battlefield 4 and Watch Dogs, now favored the green team.

That isn't entirely surprising as overclocking saw SLI performance boosted by 15% on average, whereas the Crossfire configuration gained just a percent or two. The frame time data now also favored Nvidia by 5%.

When it comes to power consumption there were times when the R9 Fury X Crossfire system consumed over 700 watts whereas the GTX 980 Ti SLI setup never broke 600 watts, at least before any overclocking took place. That said, even when heavily overclocked, the GTX 980 Ti SLI cards still consumed considerably less than the Fury X Crossfire cards.

...

If we go back and look at the average frame rate performance of each game while also taking note of the minimum frame rates we see that the GTX 980 Ti SLI setup delivered very playable performance in seven of the 10 games, the Fury X Crossfire cards on the other hand provided what we consider to be very playable performance in six of the 10 games while remaining playable in the rest.

Gamers wanting to play at 4K will be happy with either setup overall, but we feel Nvidia offers a more consistent gaming experience while allowing for an additional 15% performance bump through overclocking. Normally we don't place so much emphasis on overclocking, but we feel those seeking an enthusiast multi-GPU setup are probably able and willing to enjoy the benefits of overclocking."


http://www.techspot.com/review/1033-gtx-980-ti-sli-r9-fury-x-crossfire/page7.html



Techspot make a very fair point. Multi-GPU enthusiasts aren't going to be the types to run reference cooling or clock speeds (default profiles on any air cooler being prone to throttling). And when Techspot didn't, the 980 Ti SLI was faster than the Fury X Xfire solution in both FPS and frame times. It's a logical assumption for a group of people actually chasing all the power they can get.

Furthermore, said people may even get the AIO 980 Tis or put on their own custom waterblocks as well for even further overclocking and/or less thermal throttling. And the final elephant in the room: what if these people go even further beyond and get Titan X SLI under water and overclock those?


For these enthusiasts you refer to, the best option is still a GM200 (either 980 Ti or Titan X for the less value-oriented) SLI machine of some kind with non-reference cooling and overclocking whether you like or not. Basically, you're wrong.
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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You said "I think this also should silence those who blabber on incessantly about AMD having no R&D budget so they can't compete. They were first out with a next gen graphics API, HBM, and it's looking now like 14nm FF".

I don't know what you think "compete" means, but with microprocessors, it means performance results. You not only attempted to belittle people concerned about AMD's R&D, but attempted to rebut the point of AMD not competing by listing off two things that still result in AMD losing (API, whereas Nvidia expertly implemented superior DX11 multithreading and are currently winning in the only two DX12 benchmarks out there; HBM that, for all the hype, ended up in a product that gets beaten in pretty much all performance results by Nvidia's product without it).

Then you stated one final claim (first to 14nm) that's both pure speculation on anyone's part, tells us nothing about the actual quality or relative timing of the competitors' products, and is the biggest jump to conclusion in this discussion.

Touting HBM and APIs as if the terms themselves mean anything while the GPU division factually isn't keeping up with their competitor's efficient and powerful designs while having the nerve to insult people who understand the importance of R&D in that predicament (can't afford to tape out new, more efficient designs; can't afford to redesign GCN on 28nm so that Fiji was actually an effective counter to GM200; can't afford to multithread DX11 drivers like Nvidia) is so wrong.

The only thing you can come up with is a massive leap to conclusion about yet another as-of-now meaningless claim based on nothing but your own interpretation of current rumors and limited information. And you treat that interpretation as if it ends the discussion on whether AMD have the R&D to compete even though we still know near nothing and have the events of 2015 demonstrating R&D's effect? Remember how baseless speculation and hype turned out with Fiji and HBM?



You're right, it's not the point because I never mentioned Nvidia selling more. I'm talking about the aftermarket 980 Tis hands-down beating the Fury X in all currently-available measures (4K performance, 1440p performance, VRAM, power efficiency, DX11 draw call efficiency, per-transistor efficiency, DX12 performance, bang for buck, and manufacturing cost).

Nice straw man attempt though.





More logical fallacies? Another straw man attempt and goalpost moving in one post. Excluding your assumption or ridiculous generalization about what people in this thread trashing the Fury X (which I suppose is me; nice of you to quote me directly) thought in the past, we'll start with the obvious: multi-GPU support regardless of vendor tends to suck these days and single-GPU enthusiast setups are far from pointless or for "peasants". I've never thought so, many enthusiasts have never thought so, and strangely enough, Nvidia have also tended to hold the fastest single-GPU title throughout the past decade as well, so I don't know what you're getting at with your imaginary goal post moving about multi-GPU, as if it's even relevant to the here and now.

But let's play on your field, the so-called ultra-resolution, multi-GPU enthusiast Arena:




http://www.techspot.com/review/1033-gtx-980-ti-sli-r9-fury-x-crossfire/page7.html



Techspot make a very fair point. Multi-GPU enthusiasts aren't going to be the types to run reference cooling or clock speeds (default profiles on any air cooler being prone to throttling). And when Techspot didn't, the 980 Ti SLI was faster than the Fury X Xfire solution in both FPS and frame times. It's a logical assumption for a group of people actually chasing all the power they can get.

Furthermore, said people may even get the AIO 980 Tis or put on their own custom waterblocks as well for even further overclocking and/or less thermal throttling. And the final elephant in the room: what if these people go even further beyond and get Titan X SLI under water and overclock those?


For these enthusiasts you refer to, the best option is still a GM200 (either 980 Ti or Titan X for the less value-oriented) SLI machine of some kind with non-reference cooling and overclocking whether you like or not. Basically, you're wrong.

Don't pull compete out of context and then apply your conditions to the whole statement. Compete as in keeping up with them with research and development.

I really don't care about market share or profits. The less money a company makes off of me the better. As long as they can continue to make great products for me. AMD does make great products. They are still driving the state of the art forward. If somehow it's good for you that nVidia is making so much profit, then I guess you should be happy about it. Personally, I don't see a penny of it or anything else from nVidia. All I get is them sabotaging games so they run like crap. It's been going on for a long time now. Would be nice to see that stop. I won't hold my breath though.
 
Aug 20, 2015
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Don't pull compete out of context and then apply your conditions to the whole statement. Compete as in keeping up with them with research and development.

You mean besides the research and development of their GPUs themselves? Okay...

I really don't care about market share or profits. The less money a company makes off of me the better. As long as they can continue to make great products for me. AMD does make great products. They are still driving the state of the art forward. If somehow it's good for you that nVidia is making so much profit, then I guess you should be happy about it. Personally, I don't see a penny of it or anything else from nVidia. All I get is them sabotaging games so they run like crap. It's been going on for a long time now. Would be nice to see that stop. I won't hold my breath though.

That's great, more logical fallacies... ad hominem because I state facts that bother you. I already said I don't care about market share or profits either. I care about better products, facts, and value. I don't like Nvidia or any corporation either, but facts are facts. AMD are not competing well in R&D (the actual GPUs); so poorly in fact that Nvidia were even able to get away with GK104 as the 680 facing the 7970 in the first place and a cut-down GM200 as the 980 Ti versus the Fury X.

If you need to have your views on Nvidia's software strategies coloring your evaluation of their R&D situation and current market offerings, I'm sorry, but you're clearly not being objective here.
 

tviceman

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2008
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It's pretty obvious the AMD fans are bracing for

A) a possible disappointment
AND/OR
B) excuses in advance of why Polaris failed to compete in "sponsored reviews" but when using eyefinity 4K screens busting out 13 fps it's faster!!#$#$@
AND/OR
C) The internet as a whole is against AMD and Nvidia has bought and paid off Hardocp, techreport (despite their CEO quitting and being hired by AMD), Anandtech, techpowerup, hardwarecanucks, techspot, and virtually every other popular tech site is an obvious Nvidia shill and doesn't know jack.
AND/OR
D) Finally Ensuring Right Measurements In reviews, power draw is no longer an important metric to GPU performance, NEVER EVER. Not once. Ever.


Of course this all sounds familiar and has been rehashed several times over the past few generations, but history has a way of repeating itself.
 

gamervivek

Senior member
Jan 17, 2011
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Why people think nvidia will keep the same clockspeeds as maxwell and amd will keep the same clockspeeds as cgn 1.2/3? Both. Are new architectures, the clockspeed targets may very altogether. After all, remind me for how many generation nvidia gpus clocked to 1.4ghz? (dismissing the obvious hiperbole of "breaking a sweat")

850Mhz for the chip that AMD demoed at CES. nvidia are doing 1.4Ghz since Kepler, Maxwell does that without more voltage. AMD are still stuck around 1Ghz since the 4890 and rarely go over 1.2Ghz which is the normal boost clock for 980Ti.

They have one GPU that's faster and that requires hard O/C'ing as the workload shifts to GPU limited (higher res). I don't call that complete domination. I also think the "software supremacy" is just an extension of "AMD drivers suck" rhetoric. Boost is typically higher than 100MHz-150MHz clock advantage for nVidia. It's more like 1GHz Fiji vs. 1.3GHz GM 200 in real life.

It's not hard OCing when aftermarket cards are doing 1.4Ghz regularly. By software supremacy I meant dev. relations and gameworks. If AMD had more games like battlefront, then it would not be that lopsided.

1.2Ghz is the best boost clock for the stock 980Ti, I see this guy's comparison videos and it's interesting to notice how Fury X is easier on the CPU.

https://www.youtube.com/user/DudeRandom84/videos

Nope, they don't if the one with the slower speeds is still competitive or faster. Actual performance in its segment is what matters. It mattered a bit this gen due to overclocking headroom I admit, but clockspeeds on their own will never be a deciding factor for GPUs, just like they aren't for CPUs.

Actual performance and segmentation depends on the clockspeeds. As I said, AMD could do well with their small chips earlier with the clockspeed advantage, but now it has reversed and shows no sign of abating.
 

Zanovar

Diamond Member
Jan 21, 2011
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It's pretty obvious the AMD fans are bracing for

A) a possible disappointment
AND/OR
B) excuses in advance of why Polaris failed to compete in "sponsored reviews" but when using eyefinity 4K screens busting out 13 fps it's faster!!#$#$@
AND/OR
C) The internet as a whole is against AMD and Nvidia has bought and paid off Hardocp, techreport (despite their CEO quitting and being hired by AMD), Anandtech, techpowerup, hardwarecanucks, techspot, and virtually every other popular tech site is an obvious Nvidia shill and doesn't know jack.
AND/OR
D) Finally Ensuring Right Measurements In reviews, power draw is no longer an important metric to GPU performance, NEVER EVER. Not once. Ever.


Of course this all sounds familiar and has been rehashed several times over the past few generations, but history has a way of repeating itself.

Haha.for sure look forward to your thoughts.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Techspot make a very fair point. Multi-GPU enthusiasts aren't going to be the types to run reference cooling or clock speeds (default profiles on any air cooler being prone to throttling). And when Techspot didn't, the 980 Ti SLI was faster than the Fury X Xfire solution in both FPS and frame times. It's a logical assumption for a group of people actually chasing all the power they can get.

You should know, Fury X CF stock was faster out of the box with 22% faster frame times than custom OC 980TI SLI per that review.

The 980TI SLI only became faster when maxed OC manually.

Per TPU's article on vcore mod, Fury X can hit 1.2ghz and with the vram OC, scales nicely. That Techspot did their OC without vcore access and got (IIRC) ~50mhz bump and did not touch memory OC at all.

My point still stands, in multi-GPU configs, Fury X is very competitive even against max OC 980TI.

Now, let's go further, how about max enthusiast setup, Quad FIRE vs Quad SLI...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8hKhlbrhQ4



Where exactly is this failure of Fury X to compete at the enthusiast level? Faster = worse? Ofc, only when you count single GPU only.
 
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Erenhardt

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 2012
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You should know, Fury X CF stock was faster out of the box with 22% faster frame times than custom OC 980TI SLI per that review.

The 980TI SLI only became faster when maxed OC manually.

Per TPU's article on vcore mod, Fury X can hit 1.2ghz and with the vram OC, scales nicely. That Techspot did their OC without vcore access and got (IIRC) ~50mhz bump and did not touch memory OC at all.

My point still stands, in multi-GPU configs, Fury X is very competitive even against max OC 980TI.

Now, let's go further, how about max enthusiast setup, Quad FIRE vs Quad SLI...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8hKhlbrhQ4



Where exactly is this failure of Fury X to compete at the enthusiast level? Faster = worse? Ofc, only when you count single GPU only.

Before you even start. Double Precision is not a globally accepted performance metric. Half precision, that is another story - soon to be FOTM

What a nice mud slinging competition you made it here for yourselves. Great job.
 
Aug 20, 2015
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You should know, Fury X CF stock was faster out of the box with 22% faster frame times than custom OC 980TI SLI per that review.

The 980TI SLI only became faster when maxed OC manually.
I made it explicitly clear in my post with Techspot's quote. And your point is... nothing. You goal-shifted to extreme enthusiast multi-GPU setups. Those people overclock, if not abandon air-cooling entirely, due to stock throttling behavior when you pair together more than one air-cooled 250W-300W flagship. And it wins in frame times and in FPS when they did so. On a cut-down GM200 chip that sucks down significantly less power, uses significantly less transistors, and doesn't even have the advantage of HBM at Fiji's best area. In single-GPU, the difference at those clock speeds is even bigger; absolutely massive, really.

That's a failure.

Per TPU's article on vcore mod, Fury X can hit 1.2ghz and with the vram OC, scales nicely. That Techspot did their OC without vcore access and got (IIRC) ~50mhz bump and did not touch memory OC at all.


My point still stands, in multi-GPU configs, Fury X is very competitive even against max OC 980TI.
No, your point was that it beats 980 Ti SLI for the multi-GPU enthusiast market. I quote:

Now that Fury X in multi-GPU is FASTER AND SMOOTHER, it doesn't matter. Only single GPU matters.

It doesn't, straight from Techspot's results. Oh, unless in your consideration of the cherrypicked upper enthusiast multi-GPU market, you assume people don't manually overclock chips famous for their high clock capabilities. Plus, Techspot reached the max clocks they could on the Fury X as per them just as they did the 980 Tis (exact numbers weren't mentioned in that particular article, only 60 MHz on a separate one for the Fury X with no mention of the 980 Ti results), but you do realize those 980 Tis that were winning were also still on air-cooling and very possibly have more juice left in them as well due to AIO models and water blocks which the enthusiast market you so carefully cherrypicked undoubtedly use. Plus custom BIOSes while we're talking that territory (which we are, considering Fiji's extensive voltage control to even achieve TPU's results that are still even theoretically inferior to Techspot's 980 Ti results).

About TPU, they measured:




A 16% core OC and a 12% memory OC resulting in only 10% additional performance scaling from straight-up stock. That's not great scaling and it also resulted in ridiculous power draw. Pushed balls-to-the-wall, Fiji's limit is much relatively lower than GM200's and considering the Fury X is under liquid cooling by default and has voltage control there, that is Fiji's max limit. Whereas no 980 Ti's default BIOS quite allows them to reach their limit.

Now, let's go further, how about max enthusiast setup, Quad FIRE vs Quad SLI...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8hKhlbrhQ4



Where exactly is this failure of Fury X to compete at the enthusiast level? Faster = worse? Ofc, only when you count single GPU only.

You know as well as I do that those are reference blower coolers on GM200. Four of them stacked one of top of the other with no room to breathe. You talk a lot of smack about a cherrypicked multi-GPU enthusiast market, have the facts show you're wrong, and decide to pick a benchmark where GM200 is heavily throttled by an unrepresentative reference cooler and you know it?

Okay, nice talking to you. The facts are there for genuinely objective people to see, but you can continue wrestling with various hypotheticals that put GM200 at as much of a disadvantage as possible, completely ignoring what the actual models enthusiasts of that sort will buy, what speeds they'll run them at, or how they'll replace the cooling.

And of course, remember that this is still on your goalpost-shifted field. It doesn't account for Fiji's relative VRAM deficit or its massive loss in single-GPU configurations which enthusiasts actually do use. And the big one, Fiji's using HBM and more transistors which was supposed to give it a leg up on full GM200, but instead it gets smacked around by the runt GM200 and uses more power while doing so.

It doesn't matter how you want to spin it or backtrack on your factually-incorrect claim. Those actual results make it abundantly clear. Fiji puts its best foot forward in multi-GPU due to XDMA and a standard AIO, but mitigate the latter's advantage with non-reference 980 Tis doing what they're great at (OC) and it still doesn't manage to win or match the 980 Ti; not in their review nor even theoretically with both GPUs getting voltage control.

Whether you understand or not, we're done here. But thank you for illustrating that you can't actually illustrate AMD's claimed advantages; neither in the context of this thread where we don't know anything about Pascal and Polaris's relative timings nor in defense of the last-hyped disappointment.
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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You should know, Fury X CF stock was faster out of the box with 22% faster frame times than custom OC 980TI SLI per that review.

The 980TI SLI only became faster when maxed OC manually.

Per TPU's article on vcore mod, Fury X can hit 1.2ghz and with the vram OC, scales nicely. That Techspot did their OC without vcore access and got (IIRC) ~50mhz bump and did not touch memory OC at all.

My point still stands, in multi-GPU configs, Fury X is very competitive even against max OC 980TI.

Now, let's go further, how about max enthusiast setup, Quad FIRE vs Quad SLI...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8hKhlbrhQ4



Where exactly is this failure of Fury X to compete at the enthusiast level? Faster = worse? Ofc, only when you count single GPU only.

Anyone who still believes that GK104 is a better GPU than Tahiti is beyond reasoning. You're wasting your time.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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You know as well as I do that those are reference blower coolers on GM200. Four of them stacked one of top of the other with no room to breathe.

You can have 4 x custom air 980TI OC that people seem to harp on about in quad SLI and it's still going to lose badly due to throttling inside a case. How much heat is that once they are OC, 1200W in a case?

Whereas 4x Fury X is still humming along beautifully. Something you people don't give credit for, it's built in water cooling advantage that makes it superior for a REAL in-rig CF vs SLI configs.

Fact is at the enthusiast grade, it is more than competitive.

What's so hard about saying multi-GPU Fury X is better? I have no issue saying single GPU the 980Ti is better.
 
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Feb 19, 2009
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Anyone who still believes that GK104 is a better GPU than Tahiti is beyond reasoning. You're wasting your time.

I don't think many would say that and I don't recall it being said in recent times, certainly not after the neutering of Kepler in the post-Maxwell era.
 

nurturedhate

Golden Member
Aug 27, 2011
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You can have 4 x custom air 980TI OC that people seem to harp on about in quad SLI and it's still going to lose badly due to throttling inside a case. How much heat is that once they are OC, 1200W in a case?

Whereas 4x Fury X is still humming along beautifully. Something you people don't give credit for, it's built in water cooling advantage that makes it superior for a REAL in-rig CF vs SLI configs.

Fact is at the enthusiast grade, it is more than competitive.

What's so hard about saying multi-GPU Fury X is better? I have no issue saying single GPU the 980Ti is better.

Dude, the guy comes in here with no post count and starts spewing hyperbole like no other. His stuff is well written and specifically written to paint one particular picture, all else be damned. He wraps bad data in pretty words and moves goal posts. If that doesn't raise some flags about the "how and why" of the poster's reason on these forums I really don't know what else would.
 
Aug 20, 2015
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Anyone who still believes that GK104 is a better GPU than Tahiti is beyond reasoning. You're wasting your time.

Indeed, anyone who does believe that is beyond reasoning. Who believes that? Are you referring to this:

AMD are not competing well in R&D (the actual GPUs); so poorly in fact that Nvidia were even able to get away with GK104 as the 680 facing the 7970 in the first place

Because nowhere in that do I state GK104 is a better GPU than Tahiti now. I never even stated it was ever better. I said the 7970's launch was weak enough for GK104 to be a viable contender. The 7970's $550 launch price coupled with roughly GK104 performance at the time made the $500 680 as a mid-range chip possible in the first place since Tahiti certainly didn't require any variant of GK100 or GK110 to compete with it way back when.

I don't know how you assumed that I believe GK104 is better than Tahiti from that, but I don't. If I was buying at the time, the 7950 or 7970 would have easily been my first choice with its extra VRAM just as my 290X was my first choice over the 780.

You can have 4 x custom air 980TI OC that people seem to harp on about in quad SLI and it's still going to lose badly due to throttling inside a case. How much heat is that once they are OC, 1200W in a case?

Whereas 4x Fury X is still humming along beautifully. Something you people don't give credit for, it's built in water cooling advantage that makes it superior for a REAL in-rig CF vs SLI configs.

Fact is at the enthusiast grade, it is more than competitive.
I addressed this in my post. Again, enthusiasts of the type you're now referring to (quad-card ones) aren't running these cards with air coolers (especially not on reference blower coolers and especially not at stock speeds). There are several AIO models of the 980 Ti out there and people with that much money to blow on a multi-card rig are quite likely to look into those or custom liquid-cooling. Like this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814487144

and this:


What's so hard about saying multi-GPU Fury X is better?
The fact that it's not true for the market segment that actually cares about these things. It's like comparing quad-SLI AIO cooled OC 780s to quad Xfire reference 290Xs and coming to the conclusion that the 780 is better at multi-GPU. Meanwhile, enthusiasts using water blocks or AIO 290Xs in Xfire aren't actually missing out on anything and have more VRAM to boot.

The only difference is that manufacturers actually make those kinds of models for the 980 Ti now.


Dude, the guy comes in here with no post count and starts spewing hyperbole like no other. His stuff is well written and specifically written to paint one particular picture, all else be damned. He wraps bad data in pretty words and moves goal posts. If that doesn't raise some flags about the "how and why" of the poster's reason on these forums I really don't know what else would.

What? Because I write well, don't tend to write much, and am stating facts about a piece of silicon, you can presume all this about me? There's no bad data, it's factual data. Some of the only data we even have available on the subject matter at hand in fact. It's not hyperbole. Nothing is hyperbolic about the situation; pray tell how it is and what goal posts I've moved? If you must know, I came to these forums in August because of Skylake and of course brought some major disappointment in the industry's development with me, especially given the hype leading up to all kinds of things that never pan out. I was interested in the discussions and only post occasionally because other than correcting false information, there's nothing much else for me to say. I'm interested in the industry and this past year has been one of the most disappointing ever in a field of my interest. Forgive me for discussing the facts of a company's historically dire situation and disappointment in a lack of progress.
 
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3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
AMD are not competing well in R&D (the actual GPUs); so poorly in fact that Nvidia were even able to get away with GK104 as the 680 facing the 7970 in the first place

Because nowhere in that do I state GK104 is a better GPU than Tahiti now. I never even stated it was ever better. I said the 7970's launch was weak enough for GK104 to be a viable contender. The 7970's $550 launch price coupled with roughly GK104 performance at the time made the $500 680 as a mid-range chip possible in the first place since Tahiti certainly didn't require any variant of GK100 or GK110 to compete with it way back when.

You said the actual GPU's. So poorly in fact, etc... How else was I supposed to read that?

Besides, that has nothing to do with what AMD is doing with their reduced R&D budget. I'm pretty certain, without looking it up, that back during Tahiti development AMD was outspending nVidia in R&D.

You're just all over the place trying to discredit my position that AMD's R&D seems to be doing just fine considering all of the 1sts they have. Bringing up Tahiti, GK104, and who only knows what next? You even say that AMD can't afford DX11 multithread drivers when they clearly stated that DX11 is so poor at multithreading it isn't worth the effort. Instead they developed a true multi core API (I'm sure that cost less than new drivers. lol) and now everyone's doing it.

Just forget it. I said what I said and you disagree. That's fine. We'll see how things play out when the next node drops.
 
Feb 19, 2009
10,457
10
76
It's like comparing quad-SLI AIO cooled OC 780s to quad Xfire reference 290Xs and coming to the conclusion that the 780 is better at multi-GPU.

If they cost similar in that example then yes, it would be clearly better.

This is the point that's lost on people. Fury X as a product has a natural advantage in multi-GPU config due to XDMA CF and built in water cooling, for cheaper than open air 980Tis and a lot cheaper than hybrid water 980TI, a lot cheaper and less hassle than manual water loops!

If cost is a non issue, then water cooled OC Titan X multi-GPU setup gets the crown.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
11,951
204
106
If they cost similar in that example then yes, it would be clearly better.

This is the point that's lost on people. Fury X as a product has a natural advantage in multi-GPU config due to XDMA CF and built in water cooling, for cheaper than open air 980Tis and a lot cheaper than hybrid water 980TI, a lot cheaper and less hassle than manual water loops!

If cost is a non issue, then water cooled OC Titan X multi-GPU setup gets the crown.

Actually if it cost the same it still wouldn't be better. Crossfire is simply a better performing solution (as you showed). nVidia needs to spend some of their massive R&D budget on getting SLI up to date with the comp. Maybe they'll do that with Pascal.
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
106
While I generally agree with guys like Sontin and ShintaiDK's "brutal realism" about the relative positions of Nvidia vs. AMD from a metrics perspective, I can't help but admire where AMD is with how little they have.

Despite being outclassed in almost every technical category, AMD still manages to offer up fairly compelling solutions vs NV. I don't think anyone could say AMD is as bad off as they were in the 2900XT/HD3870 vs 8800GTX massacre days of yore.

Do you really think? Tonga is no match for GM204. In fact Tonga is much more worse against GM204 than rv670 (3870) was against G92 (8800GT). The former was smaller and more advanced (DX10.1 over DX10).
Fiji needs HBM, a water cooler and 30% more power to be as good as the reference GTX980TI. The iChill water cooling GTX980TI is around 30% faster than Fury X: http://www.hardware.fr/focus/113/gtx-980-ti-evga-sc-inno3d-ichill-black-test.html

Every product is sellable through the price.
 

Ma_Deuce

Member
Jun 19, 2015
175
0
0
It's pretty obvious the AMD fans are bracing for

A) a possible disappointment
AND/OR
B) excuses in advance of why Polaris failed to compete in "sponsored reviews" but when using eyefinity 4K screens busting out 13 fps it's faster!!#$#$@
AND/OR
C) The internet as a whole is against AMD and Nvidia has bought and paid off Hardocp, techreport (despite their CEO quitting and being hired by AMD), Anandtech, techpowerup, hardwarecanucks, techspot, and virtually every other popular tech site is an obvious Nvidia shill and doesn't know jack.
AND/OR
D) Finally Ensuring Right Measurements In reviews, power draw is no longer an important metric to GPU performance, NEVER EVER. Not once. Ever.


Of course this all sounds familiar and has been rehashed several times over the past few generations, but history has a way of repeating itself.

Wow, if you throw that much proaganda against the wall something has to stick, right? As much hate as people get here for over-hyping AMD, at least it's refreshing to see some hate about under-hyping...

Hopefully Nvidia can at least get something together to talk about soon.
 

caswow

Senior member
Sep 18, 2013
525
136
116
Do you really think? Tonga is no match for GM204. In fact Tonga is much more worse against GM204 than rv670 (3870) was against G92 (8800GT). The former was smaller and more advanced (DX10.1 over DX10).
Fiji needs HBM, a water cooler and 30% more power to be as good as the reference GTX980TI. The iChill water cooling GTX980TI is around 30% faster than Fury X: http://www.hardware.fr/focus/113/gtx-980-ti-evga-sc-inno3d-ichill-black-test.html

Every product is sellable through the price.

its almost as saying nvidia had to remove dp to survive the kepler farce. D:
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
3,273
149
106
GM204 has the same DP GFLOPs like GK104. Tonga has only 1/16 instead of 1/4.

Fiji cut the DP performance from 1/2 to 1/16. nVidia went from 1/3 to 1/32.
 
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